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| Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2008-12-27, 3:25pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy
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As of the more recent post about lurkers, thats just sad that alot of people in this community feel that they shouldnt say something because it may become an attack on them. As a community they have every right to speak out and not be attacked. Maybe we shouldnt be so quick to derail the topics, point fingers and out people, maybe we can just agree to disagree. Everyone should speak out and have no worries of attacks because there voice matters too.
Jen
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What you really meant to say here is: If you're on my side of the debate you have every right to speak out without fear of being attacked, but if you're on the other side of the debate you have no right to speak out and if you do, you deserve to be personally attacked.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 3:30pm
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Storm Queen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DianaDesigns
If she doesn't speak with the new writer, then I feel her silence can mean, she either doesn't care, or has moved on and believes, she already did a Tut and by doing so understood that something like this could happen. She should in no way feel uncomfortable speaking her peace to the new writer.
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Don't make assumptions.
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2008-12-27, 3:42pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
I personally think Jen had every right to start this thread and I think there are those tut writers who will change what they have done in the past because of this thread. Others choose not to change and that is entirely up to them. They are the writer and have the option of deciding for themselves how they want to handle the situation. I think all this was said on about page 5, or somewhere like that.
I really would love it if we could all come to a concensus regarding what is technique, style and design. I think that would also help everyone, as stated in post 772 in this thread. So, I would be really interested in having some input from those posting or reading this thread.
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Here's my definition:
Techniques - hollow mandrel-wound bead, stretched glass using centrifugal force. Dots applied (technique) to create a particular design. (florals) Sculptural.
Style - I consider "sculptural/dragon" to be technique and subject.
To define style we can look at Rogers dragons, Locos dragons and Pams dragons. They are all of the same subject, medium and technique. The technical aspects of creating them are the same. The end results are completely different. So you have dragons in the style of Roger, dragons in the style of Loco and dragons in the style of Pam. They are all the same, but different enough for us to easily tell who made which dragon.
design - Light green opaque dragon having spikes of transparent turquoise with tips of each spike in transparent pink. Flowers in opaque blue, pink and white scattered over the body of the dragon. Dragon has turquoise lips and wings of turquoise and pink.
Yes, the way color and techniques, are applied to create a unique design is the design.
Anybody want to give it a try?[/quote]
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 3:46pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
Do artists have ownership/copyrights to a "style" of bead?
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I agree with most of what Pam said too. The only place I differed was the subject of style.
Read my definition of style. Do people have ownership to their personal style. Yes.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 3:50pm
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Senior Member
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Question:
Who Do you associate with the sculpted Rose Bead?
There is a reason behind my question and I am reading it as I type this.
I need to read further but the title of the article bothered me.
Me, Marilyn Peraza is the name that comes to mind.
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2008-12-27, 3:51pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharonP
Pam, I've always thought that 'Style' relates to how the artist uses technique and design to create a body of work that's distinctly recognizable as THEIR work. You sure did that!
*s*
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Yes! This is exactly how I would interpret style.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:11pm
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disco granola punk
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Quote:
1. Category - Sculptural
2. Subject - dragon
3. Techniques - hollow mandrel-wound bead, stretched glass using centrifugal force with encased flowers, with added details of front and back legs, wings and spikes.
4. Style - stretched neck and tail, applied legs, wings, etc., etc.
5. Design - Light green opaque dragon having spikes of transparent turquoise with tips of each spike in transparent pink. Flowers in opaque blue, pink and white scattered over the body of the dragon. Dragon has turquoise lips and wings of turquoise and pink.
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I do like this breakdown a lot. it could be argued 3, 4, and 5 grouped together are what make a work distinctive, and let's not forget that an artist also retains rights of derivative works. therefore, if you come up with a successful formula, it is within your rights as an artist to explore that without threat of infringements on your rights to earn a living from a successful formula you invented because you put the time and sweat into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
<snip>
BUT - based on the case above - is "Yes! Copy! Sell! No worries!" really good advice to give someone? Not to mention, responsible advice?
</snip>
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your post is a good one, Sarah. you can't prevent people from giving bad advice. it seems like there are always people lined up ready to give advice based on what THEY want you to do, not based on what's ethical or best for you.
it made me think, when pondering whether to write a tutorial, research would definitely be in order beyond what's necessary in preparing the tut itself. rather than asking lampworkers alone, I'd probably make use of my business connections as a sounding board to explore possible issues, especially after learning there'd been a previously published tutorial on the technique. legal advice might be useful as well, but I know someone who was told by 4 different copyright lawyers that something was protected by copyright that was not, so it's possible to waste a lot of money on useless legal advice. the safest thing to do as a first step, though, is determine who might hold any claim to a design and determine what if any rights you're violating with some honest communication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DianaDesigns
Was it morally right to begin that discussion within that thread?
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I don't think it's an issue of morality at all. much of what is considered morally absolute in some circles is not in others, and where something is black and white to you, it's a shade of grey to me that I have to determine based on the circumstances at hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DianaDesigns
<snip>
One more add on the other subject. I still feel that the question of the tut, should be discussed by the two involved parties.
If the first person feels the tut needs to be revoked, then she needs to speak with the new writer.
<snip>
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I disagree with you here. I think way back when, before the tut was published, it really should have been discussed privately as you suggest, but the burden should be on the new tut writer, not the original author, to seek out established rights and obtain any necessary permissions. if it gets to the point of any burden being placed on the original author, it shows a real lack of respect on the part of the new writer who has knowledge of a prior claim, and makes any future acts to reserve rights, in effect, a request to cease and desist.
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miahawk AKA skyisland design AKA Michelle Courchaine
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2008-12-27, 4:13pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
You describe the dragons as a style of bead and you also say that no one can own a style. I've seen other people making dragons. If one of them made a tutorial, would that upset you?
I guess the whole thing is pretty complicated and the more definition that is applied, the more complicated it becomes because there are so many exceptions to those rules.
Lisa
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Dragon is a subject. Style is the way Pam interpreted and expressed the subject. It is her distinct style.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:18pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
Deb- it wouldn't be considered copyright infringement if the artist/tutorial author taught you how to make that bead with very specific instruction- for money. That came from a patent attorney who is very well versed in copyright laws.
You can't expect to protect your copyright (if it exists) if you give it away or sell it.
Lisa
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Lisa, if the author gives you permission to copy and sell the bead, no, it is not copyright infringement. Just because you buy a book does not mean you now own the copyright and the author has given up the copyright. Trust me, it's still copyrighted.
If you buy a book to learn how to draw, the goal is to teach you the tools and mechanics you need to draw. Not to copy the images in the book and sell them as your own. If the author does not give you that permission to copy their images and sell them as your own, you are indeed in violation of copyright. And if your patent attorney tells you any different he is sadly mistaken.
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2008-12-27, 4:20pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asil4
Deb- if you want folks to believe your second statement, I might suggest that you also give the same benefit of the doubt to others instead of making assumptions when you couldn't possibly know what someone's reasons are for saying what they do.
Lisa
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Okay, that doesn't make sense.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:23pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena
Dearest Frogsong,
I've grown bored with your poor pitiful "ive been personally attacked" posts. This thread had finally gotten back on track and now you are once again trying to put the spotlight back on you and your opinions like you and your opinions are the only ones that matter or are valid. You can think or believe whatever you choose about me. I really don't care. I read this thread and I wanted to voice my opinion and what others outside the lampwork world thought about a subject. You became extremely defensive over that fact I would pose a question to someone outside LE and post their response. Why it should really matter to you I've yet to figure out though I have an idea. No one else had a problem with the question I ask these people but you. You have kept posting and raising the question about my intellegence and those surveyed etc., etc. I tried to discuss this with you rationally in this thread but for some reason you have been hell bent not to let it rest. I've tried my best to be civil. I think I have been. Now you're trying to put your family and personal life into the mix in hopes of getting me to comment on them so you can cry you have been "personally attacked". I actually feel pity for you at this moment. You have created in your mind that I'm out gathering information on you so I can slam you. I did nothing more than follow the links you have provided in your signature line. I used your own tutorial as an example to express how "copying" can be viewed differently by different people. Apparently, you don't like your own words and tutorial used as the basis to contradict your own opinions on copying. I'm sure you wouldn't have minded so much if I chose to use someone elses tutorial as an example. I'm sure you will have to keep posting trying to ruffle my feathers. You will keep baiting me so see if I will bite. It's ok. By your own words, you must get alot of "personal attacks", hmmm, I wonder why? I hope you don't mind that I'm choosing not to play your "its all about me" little game. I prefer to get back to the matter at hand which isn't you!
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Yeah, I wanted to voice my opinion too, without being attacked. That didn't happen though did it? Once I was attacked, I wanted to voice my opinion again. Oh, but you've grown weary of my opinions so they shouldn't be here. So sorry....LOL How ridiculous!
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:25pm
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Born Facing Left
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miahawk
your post is a good one, Sarah. you can't prevent people from giving bad advice. it seems like there are always people lined up ready to give advice based on what THEY want you to do, not based on what's ethical or best for you.
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I don't feel as though I've given "bad advice". And any advice given by ANY tutorial writer is quite simply their own business; their own prerogative.
I wouldn't presume to "give advice" on what I perceived as being what was the most advantageous or "ethical" or "best" for anyone.....this is a community of mature adults, is it not? Or should the writers of tutorials now be dispensing lessons on ethics and what's "best for purchasers" along with lessons on glass?
And not to belabor this, but sentences like
Quote:
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"there are always people lined up ready to give advice based on what THEY want you to do, not based on what's ethical or best for you."
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are insulting, infantilizing, and denigrating. To both writers and buyers.
Edited to add, I know that Sarah did not use the phrase "Bad advice". One of the many qualities that I love and admire about Sarah is her ability to explore the ramifications of actions; both her own and those of others. I don't see her as judging, but rather as questioning, and let's face it....we're all in fairly new territory here. I'm a bit touchy on this subject, but I'm trying to stay balanced; to see all sides of this discussion.
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2008-12-27, 4:28pm
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Senior Member
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Okay, the more I research this issue, the more I see article after article, tut after tut written by beaders that to me and from my knowledge where not the original person to do the tut or make that bead.
I can list them here, but I won't. I just can't.
I will say that a person has called the sculpted rose their trademark bead and it is not the person I associate with that bead as well as a few others that I will not mention. I only mention this one as the words, trademark, one of a kind, her style and design are used throughout the article and it kinda burns me.
So I will gracefully bow out of this part of the discussion as I see no end and no resolve.
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2008-12-27, 4:30pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena
I used your own tutorial as an example to express how "copying" can be viewed differently by different people. Apparently, you don't like your own words and tutorial used as the basis to contradict your own opinions on copying.
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Exactly where do you believe you've used my tutorial as a basis to contradict my opinions on copying? I must have missed that part.
Quote:
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I'm sure you wouldn't have minded so much if I chose to use someone elses tutorial as an example.
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Oh I would have minded plenty. What you did changed nothing. It proved nothing. And just like your 50 friends, it added nothing to this discussion.
Quote:
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I'm sure you will have to keep posting trying to ruffle my feathers. You will keep baiting me so see if I will bite. It's ok. By your own words, you must get alot of "personal attacks", hmmm, I wonder why? I hope you don't mind that I'm choosing not to play your "its all about me" little game. I prefer to get back to the matter at hand which isn't you!
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Yeah, wonderful people attack me all the time when I disagree with them. That's they way some people are made.
And for your information deary, YOU are the one who made it all about me. Hello!!!
Was I supposed to go cry and crawl under my covers in defeat after your post which was absolutely useless to the discussion at hand?
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:38pm
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disco granola punk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherry
I don't feel as though I've given "bad advice". And any advice given by ANY tutorial writer is quite simply their own business; their own prerogative.
I wouldn't presume to "give advice" on what I perceived as being what was the most advantageous or "ethical" or "best" for anyone.....this is a community of mature adults, is it not? Or should the writers of tutorials now be dispensing lessons on ethics and what's "best for purchasers" along with lessons on glass?
And not to belabor this, but sentences like are insulting, infantilizing, and denigrating. To both writers and buyers.
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my post wasn't directed at you, nor was I pointing fingers at anyone. I was responding to Sarah's post, which she later amended to state that she wasn't trying to insult anyone, and my point wasn't to insult you or anyone else, either. my point was that I was not just agreeing that people encouraging someone to do something as Sarah described in her post (#851 I believe) may not be acting responsibly, but I was also suggesting that the encouragement might also be a little selfish... "I want that tut, so whether it's really ethical for her to publish it isn't something I'm going to be concerned with because there's no risk to me". ergo, relying on the advice of a group that MAY (not saying DOES) have their own agenda might not be the best business decision unless you know they share the risk/reward equally, or can at least objectively assess your intentions from that pov.
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miahawk AKA skyisland design AKA Michelle Courchaine
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(retired from lampworking due to ill health)
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2008-12-27, 4:39pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Also Vena, I notice that you didn't respond to any of the pertinent information I posted in reply to your posts, but instead you picked out everything that didn't matter one heap and chose to reply to that.
That was pretty predictable.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:44pm
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Honey Badger
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Wouldn't it be nice if ongoing, personal pissing matches were taken elsewhere and out of this thread?
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Lauren
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2008-12-27, 4:44pm
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Deb, I say this kindly, no matter how it is read. Perhaps you should step back a second and allow the thread to continue the true discussion. You may disagree with me, as is your right. But do you think the back and forth here is constructive to the actual discussion?
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Lori
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2008-12-27, 4:46pm
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http://www.firemountaingems.com/ency...es&sact=search
I hope you (all) take a moment to read this, it pertains to this and other threads on the subject.
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Lori
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2008-12-27, 4:49pm
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Born Facing Left
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miahawk
my post wasn't directed at you, nor was I pointing fingers at anyone. I was responding to Sarah's post, which she later amended to state that she wasn't trying to insult anyone, and my point wasn't to insult you or anyone else, either. my point was that I was not just agreeing that people encouraging someone to do something as Sarah described in her post (#851 I believe) may not be acting responsibly, but I was also suggesting that the encouragement might also be a little selfish... "I want that tut, so whether it's really ethical for her to publish it isn't something I'm going to be concerned with because there's no risk to me". ergo, relying on the advice of a group that MAY (not saying DOES) have their own agenda might not be the best business decision unless you know they share the risk/reward equally, or can at least objectively assess your intentions from that pov.
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Please forgive my density....but I don't understand what you're saying here.
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Sherry
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2008-12-27, 4:51pm
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Storm Queen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moondanse
Wouldn't it be nice if ongoing, personal pissing matches were taken elsewhere and out of this thread?
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You scare me. I almost posted the exact same thing. The answer is, yes, that would be fabulous!
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2008-12-27, 4:55pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Squaw Valley, CA
Posts: 1,454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moondanse
Wouldn't it be nice if ongoing, personal pissing matches were taken elsewhere and out of this thread?
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Absolutely. But should I allow myself to be insulted and have no opinion on the matter? Should I just ignore it? Would you have ignored it if had been directed towards you?
She had her say. I had mine.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 4:55pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 24, 2006
Location: Israel
Posts: 1,330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf
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Thanks, that was interesting.
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2008-12-27, 4:55pm
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She's Back & Burnin'
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2005
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,117
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I have the perfect (been brainstorming) solution!
For all the beadmakers who write a tutorial and don't want their customers to sell the beads they make from this tutorial...
Well, don't be surprised if a semi shows up at your front door and unloads a trailer full of beads. Then you will sleep better at night knowing that no one is selling beads that are your signature style.
This should solve everyones problem.
Sara
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Midrange torch and too many tanks of oxygen!
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2008-12-27, 4:58pm
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caffiene, beads, bedhead,
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 3,593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DianaDesigns
Okay, the more I research this issue, the more I see article after article, tut after tut written by beaders that to me and from my knowledge where not the original person to do the tut or make that bead.
I can list them here, but I won't. I just can't.
I will say that a person has called the sculpted rose their trademark bead and it is not the person I associate with that bead as well as a few others that I will not mention. I only mention this one as the words, trademark, one of a kind, her style and design are used throughout the article and it kinda burns me.
So I will gracefully bow out of this part of the discussion as I see no end and no resolve.
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well, as far as Im concerned, if my opinion matters, lol..
LEOPOLD BLASCHKA (1822-1895)and his son RUDOLF (1857-1929) are the pioneers of any sculpted flower.
they are my heros.
anyways as far as trademark bead and signature bead? I guess I dont understand the difference, alot of people call the pansy my signature bead, but I'm not the only or first to ever make a pansy, I'm sure I am they way I make them, cuz I just winged it, lol
I dont really consider it my siganture bead, I make lots of flowers, that sell just as well, I just love flowers, lol
Same with a sculpted rose ya know?
some people make them by making seperate petals, and then adding them, some people make them as one peice, etc.
So how they make them could be different, and people may want to learn thier way, or the other persons way..
Im just thinking trademark bead, signature beads, something youre known for making.. the way you make it.. not so much that you invented it..
I love all the different sculpted roses, Mias, I believe Bluff did some incredible ones if I recall a few years ago..
Ive made some similar, giving them my best shot but I stayed away from roses for the most part, Helen makes them, CC makes beautiful ones, and I waited till I could finally design something I was happy with and felt was much different than any I had seen.
Thinking, I bought Corinas stringer control video years ago, I already knew how to make stringer, just wanted to see how she went about it. I understand thats more of a tutorial about solely a technique.
When youre using something like flroals, or animals, etc for a subject, its not so much the end result as it is about how the artist got to it, (in the tutorial world) because hopefully they wind up looking like the subject in the end...
So it might be her style and design in the process of making them?
If and Im assuming, hoping she worked on it herself, without deconstructing some other artists finished peice or taking a class, etc,
and not giving them the credit for the inspiration.
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2008-12-27, 4:58pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
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"Style - To define style we can look at Rogers dragons, Locos dragons and Pams dragons. They are all of the same subject, medium and technique. The technical aspects of creating them are the same. The end results are completely different. So you have dragons in the style of Roger, dragons in the style of Loco and dragons in the style of Pam. They are all the same, but different enough for us to easily tell who made which dragon. "
"Pam, I've always thought that 'Style' relates to how the artist uses technique and design to create a body of work that's distinctly recognizable as THEIR work."
I'm fine with that definition of style if everyone else is. I tend to think of style as a more definitive term as in Art Deco, Rococo, Renaissance, Warring States, or organic, realistic, etc.
Hmmm, I'm not sure. People have done sculpted flowers for years, but who was the first? Don't know. I did some back in the early 90's, but I think I had seen them somewhere.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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My Blog
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2008-12-27, 4:59pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Squaw Valley, CA
Posts: 1,454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf
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That is an excellent link and should be read by EVERYONE on this thread.
Thank you for posting it.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 5:02pm
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caffiene, beads, bedhead,
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 3,593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf
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great article,
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2008-12-27, 5:04pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Squaw Valley, CA
Posts: 1,454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
I'm fine with that definition of style if everyone else is. I tend to think of style as a more definitive term as in Art Deco, Rococo, Renaissance, Warring States, or organic, realistic, etc.
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But those aren't dragons.  They are not objects. They are a way of doing something that is distinctly that style, no matter what the subject.
Quote:
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Hmmm, I'm not sure. People have done sculpted flowers for years, but who was the first?
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God?
A flower is a subject. A style is how you interpret and present that subject in whatever medium you're working in.
I don't know. I actually studied art in college so I'd like to think I learned something, and that's how I believe I learned it.
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-12-27, 5:18pm
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disco granola punk
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Join Date: Oct 14, 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherry
Please forgive my density....but I don't understand what you're saying here.
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it's ok, Sherry. I have a bad head cold and some of what's going on in another thread has been overflowing here so part of my response to several people was based on that.
let me try again, and I'll bring the entire quote in this time because it really did make me think about some things regarding issues that can come up when contemplating writing tuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
Here's a thought I can't get off my mind.
As many of you probably know, there happens to be a "copying thread" going on right now. I don't want to bring that debate into here, so I'm not going to go into detail or comment on the ethics of the situation. I just want to use it as an example. I'm not trying to "derail" this thread.
The person in that thread is selling a tutorial about a technique/design which many people feel belongs to someone else. You might agree with them, you might not - that's beside the point I'm trying to make. Looking at it purely from a business standpoint - publishing that tutorial would probably not be considered by many to be a smart move. Whether the writer is "right" or "wrong" (eta: and no matter who is to blame for the situation), she is now in a situation which I can imagine must be very difficult for her, and some amount of damage to her reputation is, sadly, inevitable.
The interesting thing is, that person started a thread on WC a few months back, mentioning the idea to write this tutorial. In response, one person mentioned that the particular technique/design is attributed to a different artist, and that tutorials on the subject already exist. Everyone else in the thread encouraged the OP to go ahead with the tutorial nevertheless, cheering her on, some sounding excited about the new tut. When you're not sure if you should do something, but a group of smiling people is saying "Yes! Do it!" - that can have a pretty powerful effect on your decision.
I wonder what would have happened if one person in that thread - let's say, an anonymous poster named Jane Doe - had stepped up, said something along the lines of "the decision here is obviously up to you, but I wouldn't publish that tutorial if I were you. The tutorial already exists in a book, many people feel that the bead is someone else's signature design, and there's a chance selling this tut could damage your reputation in some way or another. Before you write the tutorial, maybe it would be a good idea to see if you can incorporate the technique into a design of your own".
Maybe it would have made no difference at all. The decision, "to copy or not to copy", is up to no one but the tut writer themselves.
Maybe Jane Doe would have gotten flamed. Maybe someone would have thought she was just making vague threats to hide how she really feels. I don't know what the dynamic on WC is like.
But maybe, just maybe, this tut writer would have given Jane Doe's words some serious thought. Maybe she would have written a different tutorial, one that would incorporate the technique into a design of her own (she actually has a design of her own - people are talking about it in the other thread). If she had done that, she wouldn't be in the terrible situation she is clearly in right now. All of that could have been avoided.
What I'm basically trying to say here: many people would like to hear the "Yes! Go ahead! Copy the beads! Sell the beads! Don't worry about the consequences!"
That is understandable - no one wants to hear "if you do that, something bad might happen". Same way a smoker doesn't want to hear about lung cancer, for instance.
Many people don't want to be the ones saying "if you do that, something bad might happen". It's a bummer. It's much more fun to tell people what they want to hear.
BUT - based on the case above - is "Yes! Copy! Sell! No worries!" really good advice to give someone? Not to mention, responsible advice?
Disclaimer: I posted this because I feel it is relevant to this discussion in THIS thread. I am not trying to derail the thread. You will notice my post does not attack anyone and I don't see how it could possibly make anyone angry. If it does make you angry, I apologize in advance - that is not my intention. I am honestly interested what other people think of this. If you disagree, I would love it if you could explain why. Please, PLEASE, try to respond without personal insults and attacks. Please. It's not that difficult. Thank you.
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I agree with Sarah's concern that the advice might not be responsible. my concern for why branched out a little, as I'll explain below.
Here's Sarah's statement that she wasn't singling specific people out. neither am I. just things got me thinking about the problem of going to a specific peer group for advice they may not be qualified to give.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik
I just want to apologize if I offended any tut writers in post #851. I do not intend to criticize anyone - I can understand how it could sound that way, but it's not what I mean.
From being a part of this entire thread - it appears that tut writers have a few options on how to address or not address the "copy and sell" issue, and I don't think any one of the options, so far, is completely perfect or would make everyone happy. That's why it really is a matter of personal decision - same way as the actual "copying and selling" is - and I would never judge anyone for choosing whatever option.
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my response to Sarah:
Quote:
Originally Posted by miahawk
<snip>
your post is a good one, Sarah. you can't prevent people from giving bad advice. it seems like there are always people lined up ready to give advice based on what THEY want you to do, not based on what's ethical or best for you.
it made me think, when pondering whether to write a tutorial, research would definitely be in order beyond what's necessary in preparing the tut itself. rather than asking lampworkers alone, I'd probably make use of my business connections as a sounding board to explore possible issues, especially after learning there'd been a previously published tutorial on the technique. legal advice might be useful as well, but I know someone who was told by 4 different copyright lawyers that something was protected by copyright that was not, so it's possible to waste a lot of money on useless legal advice. the safest thing to do as a first step, though, is determine who might hold any claim to a design and determine what if any rights you're violating with some honest communication.
</snip>
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let me see if I can conclude this better... in spite of the fact that there was a specific occurrence causing concern, I can see broader implications. I could see Sarah's scenario that people may just be saying "go for it" because no one wants to put a damper on someone's enthusiasm, especially in a case where being the person to bring up ethical issues may get you flamed. I also played it out a bit further that the people saying "go for it" may be thinking about what they can get... they'd like to know how to make the bead in question, and there's no risk to them, no possible backlash if the original author of the original tutorial disapproves. in essence, they're encouraging someone to take an ill-advised and risk without alerting that person of possible ethical issues.
that's why I said (and probably badly), if I was considering writing a tutorial and someone pointed out it had been done, I'd first find out what copyrights the original author has by contacting them, and then if things seem unclear, consult with a group of people who could give more objective advice, for instance my connections in business. I would not make an ethical decision based only on a sampling of potential customers.
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miahawk AKA skyisland design AKA Michelle Courchaine
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(retired from lampworking due to ill health)
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