Pls Write Warnings on Tuts

[Asil4]

Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio

It only takes one loyal customer who is familiar with someones beads to make a fuss about copying on a public forum.

Those customers may not be aware of the tutorials so may inadvertently start a big ruckus over it. I think that's basically what Sarah is concerned about. And what she is asking the buyers of her tutorials to think about. She doesn't want to be blamed for what someone else might do.

Aren't you then fussing about something that hasn't happened?

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Kalera

I don't think anyone who makes tutorials is really caring if people sell copies of beads made from tutorials. The thread is about people wanting explicit written PERMISSION to sell beads made from the tutorials they buy, and they're mad because nobody wants to encourage that, even though they don't want to discourage it, either.

Basically, I think people need to weigh and balance options and decide what works for them, instead of expecting others to make decisions for them. Especially business decisions.

If you don't think there will be any negative repercussions from making and selling copies of the tut beads, then do it. Don't demand that other people agree with you; if they're wrong, it DOESN'T MATTER.

When I was teaching, I told my students that they should make and sell beads made from the building blocks I was teaching them. I also explained that if they wanted to have their own voice and reputation as artists, they could combine these building blocks into unique expressions of design that people would recognize as their own. I showed them how to layer and combine techniques, to come up with vastly different results.

I think it's dangerous to make up other people's minds for them. If I had told my students, "You have my express permission to make and sell these focal beads", I might be doing them a disservice, because I can't control other people's reactions. I have no way of preventing a gallery owner from rejecting their beads because they're too like my own, or an eBay shopper from criticizing them on a jewelry forum for copying, REGARDLESS of my feelings, or my explicit permission.

Jewelrymakers are not blind and naively trusting, ignorant folk. They know their materials, they do their research, and they are sharp as whips. All you have to do is read some jewelry forums to get a taste for that! The arguments people have on the Orchid list make these discussions pale in comparison. The ones I've met in person from my local group, also, are no dull blades. I've heard them critically discuss and dismiss, as suppliers, beadmakers for being too "derivative" or "generic". A great many of the beadmakers they are familiar with, I've never heard of... it's a whole different world at the buying end!

I'm not saying this to make people feel bad... I'm saying it to illustrate the point that no matter how *I*, as a teacher, may feel about someone making and selling my designs, I can't in good conscience say "Do it, go forth, make and sell them!" without reservation, because I *know* that not everyone will refrain from passing judgment, and I can't control that. Because of that, I think people need to make their own decisions, with eyes wide open to the possibilities, both positive and negative.

Kalera, I understand that the thread was started out of the need for some people to have explicit instructions to the use of the tutorial. We have to ask ourselves why some people feel the need for explicit permission to copy and sell. I believe the need for these instructions comes from the many many threads on LE about bead copying and the stigma put on anyone that may copy a bead either on purpose or by pure coincidence. I would never think twice whether or not I could copy and sell an item I learned how to make from a book I purchased. But I have to admit after purchasing many tutorials I've come across on LE everytime I use one of the techniques I wonder when that bead goes up for sale if anyone is going to acuse me of copying. I'm an accomplished beadmaker and I don't want my beads to look like anyone elses, I want them to look like me but I enjoy new techniques and learning "how did they do that". I think some lampworkers have become inhibited in what they create because of all the rant and rave over thats my bead!! I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. This is the reason why some people feel the need for explicit instructions as to whether or not they can make and sell. If the tutorial writer doesn't care either way then why can't they add a simple statement to their tutorial stating so. I think the reason some don't is because they really deep down inside don't want you to make and sell their tutorial bead. If they stated you couldn't make it and sell it then you might choose not to buy their tutorial. But...if they say nothing it will create doubt in the purchasers mind which might prevent them from copying and selling the bead. Like I said before sometimes its not what you say but what you don't say that says it all.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Kalera

Sure, but this thread isn't about whether tutorial buyers have the right to copy beads from a tutorial. It's also not about whether tutorial sellers give a fig whether the buyers copy beads from a tutorial.

It's about whether the buyers have the right to an outright endorsement of selling beads copied from a tutorial.

It seems to have evolved into some people thinking that for some reason, but that was not the original request that was posted.

I don't care if someone explicitly states the buyer can make the tutorial beads for sale if they want as long as they don't use verbiage that seems judgmental of someone that does just that.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio

You led them to believe that the tutorial writers here on this thread were saying not to copy and sell the beads in the tutorial. In doing so, you've given them a FALSE impression, in which they have come to a FALSE conclusion about tutorial writers in general.

NONE have said not to copy and sell the beads from the tutorial. I own most of the tutorials and so far, NONE have said that.

Some have read certain words in some of the tutorials and came to their own conclusion as to it's meaning, which is now being passed around as fact. And you contributed to that.

And then you brought those opinions, which are based on false information to this thread.

Frogsong,

Apparently you are consumed with the thought I might have "mislead" 50 strangers by asking them their opinions on a forum topic. I suppose if I had asked the question and they had another opinion more in line with yours it would have been okay. But since it wasn't I must have "mislead" them and contributed to a less than perfect image of tutorial writers to a bunch of people who could really care less. I really think you should think more about what you are saying or should I say relaying. My input into this thread is just as viable as anyone elses including yours. This thread has been all over the place. It has been one of many different views and thoughts. Each of these enlightening. Its unfortunate after my post you feel you must start in a politically correct way calling me a liar and stating I'm contributing to untruths about tutorial writers. Its very apparent I hit a nerve.

[sarah_hornik]

1. I do not have any personal issues with people selling the exact same beads in my tutorials.
2. I do not think it is a good idea for people trying to develop a reputation as an artist to sell the exact beads in anyone's tutorials.

I'll say it one more time: these are not contradictory statements. The fact that there is no contradiction is not my personal opinion. It is a fact. It's pure logic. Statements 1 and 2 do not contradict eachother. Contradictory statements are statements that cannot exist side by side, i.e. 1. This is black 2. This is white.

It is entirely possible for X not to have personal issues with something Y might do, while still believing that it is not a good idea for Y. For instance, if a friend of mine wants to leave her boyfriend, that would obviously not affect ME, but I can still believe it is or isn't a good idea for HER.

The only thing contradictory here is the hidden meanings some people want to believe in. As of now, all the people who have a problem with my statements are right here on this thread, and I have been saying over and over again that there is no hidden meaning to them, so what I really don't understand is why people want to believe there is one anyway. There isn't. What else am I supposed to say?

Lisa, this is the quote from your signature. Wise words.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~John Adams.

What I do find contradictory, is this:

1. We want tutorial writers to encourage us to sell the beads in their tutorials, because if they don't, we might get publicly flamed for it. We've seen it happen hundreds of times.

2. Tutorial writers shouldn't warn their readers about the potential risks in selling those beads, because that is an inaccurate description of the situation, no one will ever get publicly flamed for anything and the only risks are in the writer's mind.

Please, explain that.


I'm pretty sure I said this already, but anyway: the risks are out there. THIS IS NOT A THREAT. It's not. It's not a threat. The only way it would be a threat is if I said "I will personally harm you". If there were no risk to selling those beads, threads like this one would not exist. No matter what the tutorial writer says or doesn't say, if you sell the beads, there IS a risk involved. FACT. This does NOT mean that if you sell those beads you will necessarily get flamed, that anyone will necessarily think anything of it, or that you will have no chance at ever succeeding at anything. It means that when you do that, you take a risk, no matter how large or small that risk may be. No one can deny that the risk is there (once again, NOT A THREAT). You can think the risk is huge, you can think the risk is minuscule, and I really don't know - I'm not a statistics expert. No one can tell you if you should take that risk or not. If you tell me there is no risk at all but you want me to change my text so you feel protected, THAT's a contradiction.


I, for one, am grateful that these risks were pointed out to me when I was a newbie, before I even started selling anything. That advice helped me, not only to avoid finding myself in sticky situations, but to find my own voice. So yes, I will continue to pass it on.
Not all lampworkers in the world are on LE. Not everyone is aware that these things go on. That's another fact.

[Frogsongstudio]

Originally Posted by Vena

Frogsong,

Apparently you are consumed with the thought I might have "mislead" 50 strangers by asking them their opinions on a forum topic. I suppose if I had asked the question and they had another opinion more in line with yours it would have been okay. But since it wasn't I must have "mislead" them and contributed to a less than perfect image of tutorial writers to a bunch of people who could really care less. I really think you should think more about what you are saying or should I say relaying. My input into this thread is just as viable as anyone elses including yours. This thread has been all over the place. It has been one of many different views and thoughts. Each of these enlightening. Its unfortunate after my post you feel you must start in a politically correct way calling me a liar and stating I'm contributing to untruths about tutorial writers. Its very apparent I hit a nerve.

It wasn't "your" input you inserted into this thread. It was the input of "50 strangers" who haven't seen this thread and therefore have no accurate means of giving an honest opinion. Ask your "50 friends" to come read it so they get the whole story, then they can give opinions.

Even better, ask 25 professional artists and 25 copyright lawyers to read this thread and see what their opinions are.

Several people, including you, I believe, have stated that if you buy a book that teaches you how to make a particular artwork, no matter the medium, you believe it's your right, since you purchased the book, to reproduce and sell those copies. I'm here to tell you that that is not the case.

As one person said earlier, she bought a book that taught her how to draw Disney characters. So I ask you, do you believe she has the right to now draw those Disney characters and plaster them onto T-shirts, mugs, etc. and sell them? NO! Those are trademarked images which you can not market as your own unless you want to incur the wrath of Disney. And Disney CAN afford to sue and will.

This is true for ANY art book that you buy to learn to draw, paint, etc. If you buy a book on figure drawing and copy the images exactly that are in the book and sell them as your own, you are infringing on the artists rights and can be sued.

Those books are there to teach you the fundamentals of drawing. Techniques that you will be able to use in your own drawings. That's it.

Once you've learned to draw Micky mouse, you can draw and sell as many mice as you want, so long as it isn't Micky Mouse.

The tutorials have no such restrictions. So why this keeps being brought up repeatedly is beyond me.

I still believe it's because the buyers have their own reservations about copying that have nothing to do with the tutorial writers. And those reservations stem from all those copying threads that have cropped up in the past. Many of those threads were started by either "newbie" lampworkers, or by loyal customers of the lampworkers they feel have been copied. These are FACTS that the buyers of tutorials SHOULD be made aware of because it can and has happened more times than I care to think about.

I get why Sarah doesn't want to say, sure, copy and sell these exact beads. Because if the scenario above were to happen, she could be blamed for inadvertently causing distress to the tutorial buyer for not warning them about the potential. It is a legitimate concern for everyone involved.

And please understand that just because I happen to have a strong opinion about something, doesn't mean you've "hit a nerve" and ruffled my feathers. It means I have an opinion about it. Plain and simple.

[sarah_hornik]

If you ask a group of 50 businesspeople if they think "be original" is good advice, I wonder what they'd say.

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by squid

It seems to have evolved into some people thinking that for some reason, but that was not the original request that was posted.

I don't care if someone explicitly states the buyer can make the tutorial beads for sale if they want as long as they don't use verbiage that seems judgmental of someone that does just that.

The original request was that, if the tut writer has resterictions on selling beads made from this tutorial, they put a disclaimer on the purchase page. NO TUT AUTHORS HAVE ANY SUCH RESTRICTION, which led to the request being modified to "if it's OK for us to sell them please say so outright with no ifs, and, or buts", which is not, in many people's opinions, a reasonable request, because it essentially asks tut writers to not voice their own opinions about good business practices in THEIR OWN E-BOOKS.

"Make up your own mind" is NOT a restriction. It leaves it for the buyer to decide. Are we not all grown-up enough to handle that kind of responsibility?

[Asil4]

Originally Posted by sarah_hornik

1. I do not have any personal issues with people selling the exact same beads in my tutorials.
2. I do not think it is a good idea for people trying to develop a reputation as an artist to sell the exact beads in anyone's tutorials.

I'll say it one more time: these are not contradictory statements. The fact that there is no contradiction is not my personal opinion. It is a fact. It's pure logic. Statements 1 and 2 do not contradict eachother. Contradictory statements are statements that cannot exist side by side, i.e. 1. This is black 2. This is white.

Sorry, Sarah, those statements seem contradictory to me. If you don't have any personal issues with people selling the exact beads you taught them to make- for money, then why not just say so? Or, say nothing? Instead what you say is something contradictory to "I don't have issues with it."

This is what you have said is posted on one of your tutorials:

So, now that I’ve purchased and read the tutorials, can I make ‘Flower Child’ and ‘Barbie Bling’ beads and sell them? Or would that be considered “copying”?

To be honest, I don’t know. I used to spend a lot of time thinking about such issues. These days, I have more interesting things to think about - so I’m going to leave this one up to your own judgment.
If I were you, I wouldn’t want to be known as someone who sells other artists’ signature designs, so I’d probably play around with the techniques to develop something I could call my own. Like I said, whether you do that or not is up to you.

If you felt the need to address this in your tutorial and felt that it truly doesn't matter to you, why not just say exactly that after the first paragraph and call it a day?

You didn't leave it at that. You went on to tell them that something bad might happen to them if they did make and sell the beads you are teaching them about (for a fee) and if you were them, you wouldn't want to be known like that.

You then tell us that those warnings were given to them out of some sense of altruism. You seem to believe that those who buy your tutorials are all newbies and, without you telling them about the potential dangers, they'd never be able to figure any of that out for themselves.

At the same time, you say that you want people to decide for themselves. I guess they are only capable of deciding for themselves after you give them all the knowledge they need with which to do so.

If I were you, I wouldn’t want to be known as someone who sells other artists’ signature designs,

You assume here that if someone sells a bead that you taught them how to make that they "will become known" as something negative, and, that comes across as intimidating whether you want to see that or not. Instead, you want to continue to look at is as trying to help them. So be it.

As of now, all the people who have a problem with my statements are right here on this thread,

I really don't know how you can be sure of that. The only thing that you can really be sure of is that some folks have been vocal in this thread- that's all. Assuming anything beyond that is, well, just assuming.

1. We want tutorial writers to encourage us to sell the beads in their tutorials, because if they don't, we might get publicly flamed for it. We've seen it happen hundreds of times.

I believe that folks just want it to be clear UP FRONT-if the author has an issue with it. If you do have an issue with selling the beads that are covered in the tutorials being purchased, say so, up front, so the buyer can decide what that means to them before buying. Finding out after the money has been paid is what I see folks having an issue with.

2. Tutorial writers shouldn't warn their readers about the potential risks in selling those beads, because that is an inaccurate description of the situation, no one will ever get publicly flamed for anything and the only risks are in the writer's mind.

I believe that tutorial writers ought to treat their buyers/students as adults and a few might want to understand that the sun doesn't rise and set on their status as beadmakers.

I'm pretty sure I said this already, but anyway: the risks are out there.

And, as others have said already- people are capable of figuring out what the potential risks are, of their own choices. It's entirely possible they can do that without anyone's "help." Teaching lampworking techniques doesn't automatically assume a need to add "Life 101" to the syllabus.

They aren't however, capable of reading people's minds and some are finding out, after they have purchased a tutorial, that the some authors don't want the tutorial beads replicated for sale.

I, for one, am grateful that these risks were pointed out to me when I was a newbie, before I even started selling anything.

You might want to consider that not all folks who buy your tutorials or take your classes are newbies.

[sarah_hornik]

OMFG.

Originally Posted by Asil4

Sorry, Sarah, those statements seem contradictory to me.

So be it, then. They quite obviously aren't.

Originally Posted by Asil4

If you felt the need to address this in your tutorial and felt that it truly doesn't matter to you, why not just say exactly that after the first paragraph and call it a day?

Because I had something else to say.

Originally Posted by Asil4

You didn't leave it at that. You went on to tell them that something bad might happen to them if they did make and sell the beads you are teaching them about (for a fee) and if you were them, you wouldn't want to be known like that.

Yep!

Originally Posted by Asil4

You seem to believe that those who buy your tutorials are all newbies and, without you telling them about the potential dangers, they'd never be able to figure any of that out for themselves.

Oh, no. I never said that. I'm not going to look for the post now, but I have clearly stated in this thread that I believe those to who buy my tutorials to be from all different levels of expertise, newbies included. Actually, I know that for a fact. Which is why, yes, I say some things that may seem obvious to more experienced beadmakers, because I aim to make it accessible for as many levels as I can.

Originally Posted by Asil4

At the same time, you say that you want people to decide for themselves. I guess they are only capable of deciding for themselves after you give them all the knowledge they need with which to do so.

I'm not really sure what that means.

Originally Posted by Asil4

You assume here that if someone sells a bead that you taught them how to make that they "will become known" as something negative, and, that comes across as intimidating whether you want to see that or not. Instead, you want to continue to look at is as trying to help them. So be it.

I don't assume anything, I say there is a risk involved, which there is.

Originally Posted by Asil4

I believe that folks just want it to be clear UP FRONT-if the author has an issue with it. If you do have an issue with selling the beads that are covered in the tutorials being purchased, say so, up front, so the buyer can decide what that means to them before buying. Finding out after the money has been paid is what I see folks having an issue with.

I don't have an issue with it. I agree, if I did have an issue, I should have said something up front.

Originally Posted by Asil4

I believe that tutorial writers ought to treat their buyers/students as adults and a few might want to understand that the sun doesn't rise and set on their status as beadmakers.

Not sure what that means either, or how it is relevant to the text you quoted.

Originally Posted by Asil4

And, as others have said already- people are capable of figuring out what the potential risks are, of their own choices. It's entirely possible they can do that without anyone's "help." Teaching lampworking techniques doesn't automatically assume a need to add "Life 101" to the syllabus.

People are capable of figuring out not to stick the coated side of dichro into the flame, but that's in there too. Teaching lampworking techniques doesn't assume a need for a whole bunch of the info in TP, but I like to present as wide a view as I can.

Originally Posted by Asil4

They aren't however, capable of reading people's minds and some are finding out, after they have purchased a tutorial, that the some authors don't want the tutorial beads replicated for sale.

Let's say it all together now: NO AUTHORS HAVE SAID THAT THEY DON'T WANT THE BEADS REPLICATED FOR SALE.

Originally Posted by Asil4

You might want to consider that not all folks who buy your tutorials or take your classes are newbies.

See my reply above.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Kalera

The original request was that, if the tut writer has resterictions on selling beads made from this tutorial, they put a disclaimer on the purchase page. NO TUT AUTHORS HAVE ANY SUCH RESTRICTION, which led to the request being modified to "if it's OK for us to sell them please say so outright with no ifs, and, or buts", which is not, in many people's opinions, a reasonable request, because it essentially asks tut writers to not voice their own opinions about good business practices in THEIR OWN E-BOOKS.

"Make up your own mind" is NOT a restriction. It leaves it for the buyer to decide. Are we not all grown-up enough to handle that kind of responsibility?

Apparently there is a statement to the effect of "this style of bead is my livelihood" on at least one tutorial, which to me is "I don't want you to sell these tutorial beads". I was told about the wording - I don't actually have that tutorial so I am taking what I was told at face value.

[sarah_hornik]

Originally Posted by squid

Apparently there is a statement to the effect of "this style of bead is my livelihood" on at least one tutorial, which to me is "I don't want you to sell these tutorial beads". I was told about the wording - I don't actually have that tutorial so I am taking what I was told at face value.

Just for the record, that is not me.

[squid]

Originally Posted by sarah_hornik

Just for the record, that is not me.

yes, that I DO know - it was not you

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by squid

Apparently there is a statement to the effect of "this style of bead is my livelihood" on at least one tutorial, which to me is "I don't want you to sell these tutorial beads". I was told about the wording - I don't actually have that tutorial so I am taking what I was told at face value.

Is that a restriction that requires a disclaimer?

Or is it just that it pricks at some people's consciences, and they don't want to have to think about the implications?

Frankly, I would never do a tutorial on a bead that was my livelihood. But if someone does, how is that a problem for anyone but them?

[squid]

Originally Posted by Kalera

Is that a restriction that requires a disclaimer?

Or is it just that it pricks at some people's consciences, and they don't want to have to think about the implications?

Frankly, I would never do a tutorial on a bead that was my livelihood. But if someone does, how is that a problem for anyone but them?

I think it is a restriction that requires a disclaimer, but I have not seen the exact wording.

On the livelihood thing - I think, by their wording, they are trying to make it the buyer's problem and, if I was a buyer of that tutorial, it would chap me big time.

[Ever After]

I dont know of any such tutorail saying such a thing, Ive repeated what mine said a 100 times or more it feels like, and it does mention beadmaking being my livlihood, it does not say this bead is my livlihood, and it does ask for people to use courtesy in using the material, which was meant to point more directly at the tut itself. ie copying sharing etc.
how each and every person is going to percieve what I wrote, I cant control, just like this whole thread has turned.
someone says something, and its turned twisted and rewrote.
its like this whole thread is a game now, and its not positive at all..

[squid]

Originally Posted by Ever After

I dont know of any such tutorail saying such a thing, Ive repeated what mine said a 100 times or more it feels like, and it does mention beadmaking being my livlihood, it does not say this bead is my livlihood, and it does ask for people to use courtesy in using the material, which was meant to point more directly at the tut itself. ie copying sharing etc.
how each and every person is going to percieve what I wrote, I cant control, just like this whole thread has turned.
someone says something, and its turned twisted and rewrote.
its like this whole thread is a game now, and its not positive at all..

I have no idea if it is your tutorial they were talking about. I don't have it so I can't say one way or the other.

[Ever After]

Originally Posted by squid

I have no idea if it is your tutorial they were talking about. I don't have it so I can't say one way or the other.

no no , wasnt trying to take it so personal or even point my repsonse directly at yours, it just keeps coming up over and over, just mine does have the wording livlihood, ..
and the ways things are going,,, ya know?
xo

[squid]

Originally Posted by Ever After

no no , wasnt trying to take it so personal or even point my repsonse directly at yours, it just keeps coming up over and over, just mine does have the wording livlihood, ..
and the ways things are going,,, ya know?
xo

gotcha. The only reason I brought it up again is because people are stating that no tutorial exists that has a restriction on it, when I have been told otherwise.

[Ever After]

lol maybe I have bought said tutorial with that wording in it and havnt read it, because I just get caught up looking at the pretty pictures..?
if there is one..
xo
everyone have a good day, Im going to go try n salvage some of this day..

[Frogsongstudio]

Originally Posted by squid

gotcha. The only reason I brought it up again is because people are stating that no tutorial exists that has a restriction on it, when I have been told otherwise.

I think you're being told their interpretation of what was written. I'd have to see the tutorial and exact wording being referenced before I could comment further on it.

[SharonP]

I've been following this thread with great interest - the "can you/should you/will you create the exact bead for sale" question is just as valid for designs learned in class as for those learned thru tutorials.

*** BIG CHANGE IN DISCUSSION DIRECTION HERE re TUTORIALS ***

I'd like to hear your input on what happened to me recently. This could impact everybody who teaches.

I've been thinking about whether I want to do tutorials or not, and got slammed by an 'ohmygod' moment at the Oakland BABE show last month.

A beadbabe I don't know stopped by my table and asked me if I was going to do tutorials. I told her I hadn't decided yet, and she said I should hurry because her 'friend' had taken one of my classes and was planning to make tut's of all the bead designs she'd learned, using the diagrams I give students as a guide to direct her step-by-steps. I was pretty flabbergasted by this.

I tell everybody in class that they should use the techniques they learn in class to modify the designs to look like 'their own work' rather than 'Is that a Sharon?', and I do my best to teach them how to modify and incorporate the basic designs and techniques into something personal to them.

Plenty of people go off to make fabulous individual things, and a big bunch still go ahead and make the exact design to sell, and that's their loss, if they're trying to become known for their own individual styles.

But I think putting my entire class into tutorials to sell online is crossing a big nasty line.

This woman wouldn't tell me her friends' name (or hers!) and I've spent the last 2 months watching the tut's and waiting for the shit to hit.

I'm sure it would impact my classes, but there would still be plenty of people who would want to learn the techniques directly from me - the same as if I produced the tutorials myself.

I'm really more concerned about the incredible lack of ethics involved, if this person actually does what was threatened. It's possible the babe who spoke to me was lying, with the idea that I'd leap into pre-emptive tutorial writing. Shitters, such a mess.

This isn't just about me. It could make all the teachers who provide fabulous documentation in class think again about doing that...

*sharon*

[sarah_hornik]

Originally Posted by SharonP

I tell everybody in class that they should use the techniques they learn in class to modify the designs to look like 'their own work' rather than 'Is that a Sharon?', and I do my best to teach them how to modify and incorporate the basic designs and techniques into something personal to them.

Plenty of people go off to make fabulous individual things, and a big bunch still go ahead and make the exact design to sell, and that's their loss, if they're trying to become known for their own individual styles.

You've been doing this for much longer than I have. Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever told you they felt like you were "threatening" them when you made those statements?

Originally Posted by SharonP

But I think putting my entire class into tutorials to sell online is crossing a big nasty line.

I would have to agree with that. That is ridiculous, and if those tuts ever come out I hope no one buys them.

ETA: It also sounds blatantly illegal to me, but I'm not exactly sure how these things work.

[SharonP]

Nope, nobody's ever disagreed with me when I try to help them become better, original artists.

The discussion happens in the section of my class where I bring out the strands of Chinese beads that I've been collecting since 1998. They're labeled by year, and we go thru them in order. When you do that it's really apparent how the Chinese artists are improving in technique, design and complexity year by year, and it's eye-opening to see the stuff that's 'inspired' by our artist-made beads on eBay.

And then we talk about how the only way to deal with it is to continue to evolve as an artist, with new PERSONAL complex designs that are too much trouble to copy offshore. We talk about how to incorporate the techniques and modify the bead designs used in class so the work looks more like theirs than like mine.

Those who really want to do that, take the info and run with it. The others don't, and it's their choice. But nobody's ever gotten on my case for addressing the issue.

*s*

[Frogsongstudio]

If she runs copies off of your written material to sell in tutorials, that is definitely illegal.

[SharonP]

No, the way I understood it was that she was going to make her step-by-step beads by following my diagrams, and publish 'original' tutorials.

Maybe it won't happen, but the concept alone is scary.
*s*

[Kalera]

Ugh, that actually kind of makes me feel sick.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio

I think you're being told their interpretation of what was written. I'd have to see the tutorial and exact wording being referenced before I could comment further on it.

It's possible. I just don't think it can be stated as fact that no tutorial author has that kind of wording on their tutorial unless someone here has every single bead tutorial available.

[squid]

Originally Posted by SharonP

I've been following this thread with great interest - the "can you/should you/will you create the exact bead for sale" question is just as valid for designs learned in class as for those learned thru tutorials.

*** BIG CHANGE IN DISCUSSION DIRECTION HERE re TUTORIALS ***

I'd like to hear your input on what happened to me recently. This could impact everybody who teaches.

I've been thinking about whether I want to do tutorials or not, and got slammed by an 'ohmygod' moment at the Oakland BABE show last month.

A beadbabe I don't know stopped by my table and asked me if I was going to do tutorials. I told her I hadn't decided yet, and she said I should hurry because her 'friend' had taken one of my classes and was planning to make tut's of all the bead designs she'd learned, using the diagrams I give students as a guide to direct her step-by-steps. I was pretty flabbergasted by this.

I tell everybody in class that they should use the techniques they learn in class to modify the designs to look like 'their own work' rather than 'Is that a Sharon?', and I do my best to teach them how to modify and incorporate the basic designs and techniques into something personal to them.

Plenty of people go off to make fabulous individual things, and a big bunch still go ahead and make the exact design to sell, and that's their loss, if they're trying to become known for their own individual styles.

But I think putting my entire class into tutorials to sell online is crossing a big nasty line.

This woman wouldn't tell me her friends' name (or hers!) and I've spent the last 2 months watching the tut's and waiting for the shit to hit.

I'm sure it would impact my classes, but there would still be plenty of people who would want to learn the techniques directly from me - the same as if I produced the tutorials myself.

I'm really more concerned about the incredible lack of ethics involved, if this person actually does what was threatened. It's possible the babe who spoke to me was lying, with the idea that I'd leap into pre-emptive tutorial writing. Shitters, such a mess.

This isn't just about me. It could make all the teachers who provide fabulous documentation in class think again about do that...

*sharon*

There is a thread on a situation similar to this - someone reverse engineered someones bead, wrote a tutorial and is selling it. I am very sorry that is happening to you - I think it sucks.

[pam]

Sharon, I am so sorry that has happened to you. I cannot believe anyone would take your class and then make tutorials about your beads. That is just completely bizarre, and totally unethical!!!

You know, if everyone wants to send me their tutorials, I'll be more than happy to review them for any "un-approved" language!!