Tanked Oxygen VERSUS 2 Concentrators

[Moth]

I am looking for input from people who have used tanked oxygen on their torches, then switched to a concentrator.

I got to play with my own torch on tanked oxygen this weekend and can't believe the difference between that and the concentrator I usually use.

Boro melted like butter! So my question is this:

If I were to add a second concentrator to my minor...would it be near/close to how it ran on the tanked oxy...or NOT?

~~Mary

[MikeAurelius]

Mary - if you are working boro, it would be my suggestion to stick with tanked oxygen IF you can.

Boro is an oxygen hungry material. You will use far more oxidizing flames with boro than any other material.

We use liquid oxygen in my studio and went back to tanked oxygen for a week while we changed supply companies. Even that difference (about 3% concentration value 97% pure oxygen in the tank vs 100% pure oxygen in the liquid) was enough to affect our heat and color outcomes.

Adding a second concentrator will not add any more oxygen to the mixture, you will still have the same 93-95% oxygen level. You will have more flow available, at the same delivery pressure, but you will not change the concentration of oxygen in the flow stream.

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

I switch back and forth between tanked O2 and one oxycon. There is no comparison. Tanked O2 is 1000% better. I have a second concentrator on the way, though. I bought it because I cant affort $15 per tank refil when it only lasts me 8-10 hours. After I get the 2nd oxycon, I'll give it a test run and let you know how it compares. It will likely be about 2 weeks.

My ultimate goal is to be on liquid O2 - it's so cost effective - but that won't be for 6 months or so. I'm hoping the 2 oxycons will allow me to do nice marbles and start getting better color with my Boro.

[Moth]

Thank you all for your help.

Mike, ok...I do understand that pressure doesn't accumulate, kinda like you can't put a 100cfm fan and a 200 cfm fan in line together and move 300cfm of air. You would only be moving 200cfm of air.

So I get the idea that the pressure wouldn't be raised. I also understand that you can't add more purity of O2, same concept.

What I don't understand is what an increase in flow would mean for my flame.

If all I am doing is increasing the flow to the torch, does that just mean that it is the same amount of O2, at the same pressure, but easier to deliver to the torch??

Paulette told me once that even though an oxycon can go to 5lpm, that the higher you set the lpm, the lower the purity of O2 that is delivered, so I run my oxycon at 3.5, which was what she recommended for the highest purity.

I noticed no difference in heat when I lowered the lpm. So, what you are saying is that I will also feel no difference in heat if I add a second concentrator.

Of course, you know my next question will be...then why do people do it?

I swear, I am not arguing or being contrary. I am trying to understand why. I am just like that. If someone were to tell me, 'now flash that in the outer flame and your color will come back', that isn't good enough. I want to know why the color will come back. LOL So, I am honestly trying to understand the chemistry and physics of it all so that I can not only make my decision NOW, but also apply the principle in the future.

Honestly, I have never melted boro on my torch until this past weekend. I only own 2 boro punties and 2 points which someone sent me as a gift to blow ornaments. My minor, so far, has done everything I want it to do (daily basis-soft glass) with the single oxycon.

However, I fear I have been bitten by some sort of borobug, and if I don't scratch the itch I will be sorry.

The reason I ask is this:
If I 90% of the time work soft glass, and have thus far been perfectly happy with my oxycon, and I don't want to switch to boro full time at this point. Would it be ok if I were to put an oxygen tank in, perhaps not a huge one and switch my torch back and forth between the two?

I do NOT want to do the $60/month for oxygen. However, I would like that boost when I want it. I don't need tanked oxy for soft glass, but for boro, I really don't see how to get around it and still get the consistent results you look for.

I could buy 8-10 pounds of boro and get an oxygen tank brought in for what an oxycon will cost me up front.

OR, I could get a $15 tank refilled 20-25 times for the price.

Again, thanks for the advice and for bearing with my epic posts.


Anakin, I would sincerely appreciate it if you would post an update on how your set up compares after you switch out.

~~Mary

[MikeAurelius]

Mary - you are asking very good questions, and honestly, I don't have an answer for you. I don't know why they do it. I've never seen a clear enough explanation (from someone I trust, not a 'you must buy one of my concentrators' hack (no, I don't mean Paulette either )

As I personally see it, the only reason to use a concentrator is because you can't afford oxygen tanks, you don't want to man-handle them, or you can't get them where you live - an example of this is Heidi - she lives on an island and the oxy companies won't deliver and you really can't bring them on the ferry (not supposed to anyway), she's forced to use generators/concentrators. No other option.

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

Moth,

Here is what I do.

I have an oxycon and a O2 bottle connected via a 'Y' connection to my Lynx. There are check valves in the lines from the O2 sources to prevent backflow - i.e. O2 from the oxycon won't flow to the O2 bottle/regulator if it's output pressure is greater, likewise, O2 from the bottle/regulator won't backflow to the oxycon if it's pressure is too high. Since I do both soft glass and Boro, I just keep them both connected and turn on the oxycon when I'm doing soft glass, or leav it off and open the bottled O2 and set the regulator (about 5psi) when I'm doing Boro.

The other night I was doing Boro and only had a little bit of O2 pressure left in the bottle. I openned it up but set the regulator to zero. I turned on the oxycon and used it as my O2 source as I started with my work. Using the oxycon I made some Boro cane and started a marble. When I needed more heat to reduce the design and form the marble, I adjusted the O2 regulator to 3 or 4 psi. As I cut in the compressed O2, the flame size grew, I could hear the higher flow, and the oxycon output dropped. I reduced the O2 flow at the torch and made my marble. I'm gonna try this again tonight. I think this helps to conserve the bottled O2 which is expensive, for when it's really needed.

I'm not sure if/how this helps. I just thought I'd share. I too have the Boro bug and know long term I will ditch the oxycon, but for now, it lets me experiment and play.

[Anakin's Glass Eye]

One more thing.

I have not had very good luck with Boro colors. I've tried to stay away from the purples and striking colors until I get a reliable source of sufficient O2. I can't really relate any experience with good color and my setup.

[Starrr]

Mary, I know just what your talking about. I have a minor and used an oxy con from Paulette, (Love it), decided to try boro and bought a bunch from Brent earlier this year, so I bought another oxy con, again from Paulette. I can not get the boro to melt the way I want it to, way too freaking slow which makes the beads end up wonky, ( maybe because I'm looking around the room wating for the glass to melt). This is my observation only, I can not get a decent boro bead with a minor without tanked oxy, (I've never used tanked oxy), or the colors I want from boro. I thought about brining in an oxy tank and using a Y connector for boro, but I guess I might just as well get another torch, ( not sure which one ), and use that for boro with tanked oxy on it's own. I love my minor and do not regret the second oxy con purchase in the least, honestly, I don't know how I worked with one all this time. Right now, my minor is hot with the 2 oyx cons and I love it, everthing burns clean, hot, and my colors are great, I love the heat and the pin point flame, encasing is way easier. But for boro, I know I need a different torch with more of a bushy flame, and tanked oxy for the colors.

Now Mike, since liquid oxy seems the way to go, what torch do you suggest with it? ( and I don't want to start a big debate, I just want your opinion), and do I get the liquid oxy from my regular welding store? Anything special I need to do with the liquid oxy in cold weather, different regulator.......

Mary, I didn't mean to highjack your thread, but you seem to be in the same position as I am. I'd like to actually
play with the boro I have, but I'm not sure how to go about making it happen.
Edie

[MikeAurelius]

Edie - liquid oxygen will work with ANY torch. This is what seems to confuse some people. Liquid oxygen cells or dewars do contain liquid oxygen, BUT we are using the gas that evaporates off of the liquid. The dewar has 3 separate ports: vent (for overpressure), liquid, and gas. We ALWAYS use the gas port. A standard oxygen regulator fits right on the gas port, so you can use it with any torch.

Now, the issue then becomes, can you use all the oxygen the tank provides? Liquid oxygen dewars increase in pressure up to the vent setting. Once the pressure inside the tank reaches the vent pressure, it begins to vent oxygen. It is a use it or lose it proposition. I don't recommend liquid oxygen until you are using at least 5 "K" tanks a week (or one a day if you work 7 days a week). If you are only going through one or two K tanks a week, you will lose more oxygen from venting than you will use.

Also: liquid oxygen dewars are very heavy. A full tank weighs in the neighborhood of 600 pounds. It must be moved and placed by the oxygen company. They usually do not allow the user to move them themselves. Liquid dewars sometimes cannot be delivered to residental areas. Consult with your oxygen company.

Offsetting all this is the cost: liquid oxygen typically runs around $100 to $140 for a full dewar. For me, this was the deciding point. We were close to 4 K tanks a week, but at $25 a pop, $100 a week, $400 a month, moving to $130 for a dewar that lasts a month even though we do get some venting, is very much worth it.

[PaulaD]

This is interesting. My local gas company won't put a liquid oxygen dewar inside even though it's an industrial building with a special variance for glass work and gases..Paula

[MikeAurelius]

Paula - what reason did they give you? Are there access issues (stairs, high angle ramps)?

[bolimasa]

Mary, I use a minor, NG and a concentrator. I got a second concentrator on Sunday. I plan to hook both up together, hopefully tonight. I'll let you know what I think!

[SpitFire]

Moth -

I'm not sure if I have the info you want, but here goes. I have a minor and 2 concentrators. It is not like using tanked oxygen, but it is much better than using 1 concentrator. I know that it has been said that you don't get more pressure from adding the 2nd concentrator, but something changes. I can get a larger, stronger flame with the 2nd concentrator. I would think that even with 2 concentrators working with boro would be difficult. I make large beads with soft glass and I get a little impatient with the 2. That is probably a personal problem, not a torch performance problem.

HTH

Melissa

[shawnette]

I have a Mini CC and 2 concentrators. The Mini works great on 1 and can even melt boro, but when I turn on the 2nd concentrator I can get a HUGE flame that burns much hotter. (I usually just stick with 1. Call me crazy...)

[Starrr]

Thanks for the explanation Mike.
Edie

[KT-OldSchoolGlass]

There seems to be some new oxy cons coming on the market that will perform very well and have very reasonable prices.

One is a 8 LPM model with 10 PSI. The second is a 10 LPM with 20 PSI. They are also working on a third model that will have 20 LPM with 20 PSI. The 3rd model already has a prototype in the testing stages.

Just to give you an idea of some torches MAXIMUM oxy consumption:

Beth Piranha uses 5 LPM (average consumption 4 LPM)
Beth Barracuda uses 19 LPM (average consumption 10 LPM)
Beth Tiger Shark uses 22 LPM (average consumption 15 LPM)
Beth Great White uses 40 LPM (average consumption 28 LPM)
Beth PM2D uses 30 LPM (average consumption 22 LPM)

These consumption rates are based on having the oxy valve on your torch completely open.

The 10LPM/20PSI unit has been tested with the Barracuda and passed with flying colors.

We already have a shipment of the first 2 models on the way.

[KCDesigns]

Hi Mary,

I have nothing technical to add just my thoughts and experiences.
I was running my Minor off two oxy con's ( an Invacare and an Alliance) the Alliance quit on me last night and now I have this tiny little flame that takes forever to melt glass.
I use only soft glass have never even tried boro.
From what I understand from the experts in the medical field, your liters per minute are changing not the percentage of pure O2. I think I was running about 7lpm before the 'death' of my Alliance, which appears to have been the more dominant of the 2 since I had a larger flame from the Alliance than I do now from the Invacare. (The Alliance was the first one I had Invacare was added later)
Also I was told this morning unless you run identical machines you will always have one which delivers more lpm.

So now I am contemplating an Oxygen Generator. For one reason I am told I can change everything out myself when it needs it and they are made for a more industrial setting than a home setting. Of course the price is the sticking point.

I also have never used tanked O2 so can't comment there. I just know you will have a hotter flame with the two oxycons.

Hope I have helped a little...


Cheers,
Kim


P.S.

Not that it matters to you (or even to me for that matter) but oxycons run about $45 to $55. in electricity if used 24/7 each month so if you use two you will see a little increase in your electric bill. I thought that was an interesting little tidbit I got from a supplier this morning.