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  #1  
Old 2012-12-25, 11:26am
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Default Has anyone ever used both a Bobcat and a Minor and can compare?

I am thinking of switching to a Nortel Minor (not the Red Max) so I can get a gentler flame. I have had the Bobcat for six years and with my oxygen generator, the flame is just too harsh. Even when is dialed down low. I used to have a Mini CC that I loved because the flame was softer, and only drawback was that the Bobcat was much better for boro. The Mini was broken by a friend who tried to clean one of the ports with a welding torch cleaning wire, and it broke off. I was going to send it in to Carlisle for repairs, but then it probably got destroyed in the house fire. Maybe because it's metal, it might be intact, but I can't find it. It's buried in a pile of rubble and this is all going to be bulldozed in January. I can't risk my life digging for a torch, so it's considered to be a loss.

The Minor is not as hot as the Mini CC, but this is what I think could be best for me. If I have to, I will sell my Bobcat to get some of the funds needed for the Minor. So who has used both a Bobcat and a Minor, and can you tell me what the differences are? Is the Minor a lot more gentle than the Bobcat, or just a little? Any differences in how the flames work certain colors? I have an awful time with Effetre reds, and never had the trouble with the Hothead and reds. To me, silvered ivory looked better when working with the Hothead.
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  #2  
Old 2012-12-25, 1:46pm
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Oh yes, and the Bobcat burns out Bullseye pinks and makes them go white. I have done EVERYTHING possible....further out, back of the flame, cooler flame, more oxygen, less oxygen, less time in the flame, more time in the flame, you name it. Sorry I yelled "everything", but I have done everything there is to do. I think it is because the torch is too hot, and my generator is an older model and a very expensive high output machine. I don't plan to get another, so it is the torch which will have to change.

Effetre reds and BE pinks were both very nice on the Hothead, and should be even nicer with the oxy/propane set-up. But NOT with the Bobcat, so this is a little beyond user error after all this time. So, again here I am wondering if the Minor would be a better choice for me.
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Old 2012-12-25, 3:07pm
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sounds like you should go back to the mini cc here's a link to olympic they have have the best i've seen so far http://www.glasscolor.com/lampworking/misc_tools.aspx
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  #4  
Old 2012-12-25, 10:32pm
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Not sure about the torch, but good luck with the house. That's been a while IRC, are you going to stay there?

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  #5  
Old 2012-12-26, 12:19am
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Not sure about the torch, but good luck with the house. That's been a while IRC, are you going to stay there?

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We would love to live on the land in a trailer which would be only temporary, but there are a lot of barriers with the county go through to get permits and the power on. The fire department destroyed our well pump outlet when they were putting out the fire. Plus they are going bulldoze all of that and we would have to dig a new well. With more permits and more $$$ lol!

It will happen someday, but not for a while. Somebody is going to have to stay out there to keep the grass and trees maintained.
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  #6  
Old 2012-12-26, 12:20am
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sounds like you should go back to the mini cc here's a link to olympic they have have the best i've seen so far http://www.glasscolor.com/lampworking/misc_tools.aspx
Thank you!
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Old 2012-12-30, 9:07am
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I have never had any problems working Bullseye with a Bobcat, either on a concentrator or with tanked oxygen. Although it is rather efficient and can run well on a concentrator, the Bobcat was designed to work on tanked oxygen. It can handle high pressures and high flow easily. So, I really don't think that the problem is due to an over-powered concentrator.

I would like to help you with your problem, but would need some more information.

At what LPM are you setting the flow on your concentrator?
What kind of flame are you dialing in on your torch? What do your candles look like?
Has this torch/concentrator setup always performed like this?
Have you had the purity of your concentrator tested? Has it been maintained correctly?
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  #8  
Old 2012-12-30, 10:30am
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Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
I have never had any problems working Bullseye with a Bobcat, either on a concentrator or with tanked oxygen. Although it is rather efficient and can run well on a concentrator, the Bobcat was designed to work on tanked oxygen. It can handle high pressures and high flow easily. So, I really don't think that the problem is due to an over-powered concentrator.

I would like to help you with your problem, but would need some more information.

At what LPM are you setting the flow on your concentrator?
What kind of flame are you dialing in on your torch? What do your candles look like?
Has this torch/concentrator setup always performed like this?
Have you had the purity of your concentrator tested? Has it been maintained correctly?
No, I never said my machine was overpowered and the cause of the problems, it is actually the torch that is just too much for the work I want to do. Even so, technically my Airsep is overkill for these small torches, and it can run two of them. Although, the colors in question are a little better with a 5lpm concentrator. I tried the Bobcat out on one of those for about a week to see the difference.

It's an Airsep AS-12A (high pressure model 18psi), which was one of the very expensive alternatives to the OG-15 back in the day. $1000 more than the OG, to be exact. I bought this a few years before these souped up oxygen concentrators came on the market. I've have had some real lampworking boro pros tell me my machine is one of the best out there, which is really good to know. Nine years and it still functions the same as it did brand new, so I never needed to have it tested, and this machine is completely maintenance-free. The only thing I have to do is wash the foam filter. Yes, the torch has always performed the same, and the candles are all even and blue. In fact, a lot of people complain about carbon build-up on their torch face. I get very little of that, which shows when I notice one of the candles is slightly shorter. I just have to scrape a little to get it off, and I also use the port cleaning wire after 4-5 torching sessions.

The lpm runs at 15, and if I work hotter for boro it runs up to about 18. The max is 20 lpm. Besides, it is the very low oxygen (air) torch like the Hothead that gives me much better Effetre reds and BE pinks than the Bobcat. I don't think the problem I have is needing more oxygen, or "purer" oxygen. I'm pretty sure if I had a problem with the purity, that would definitely show in the furnace glass pinks I use a lot. They are very sensitive to reduction and need a lot of oxygen.

I just need less heat and a softer more gentle flame!
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Last edited by Lisi; 2012-12-30 at 10:41am.
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  #9  
Old 2012-12-30, 12:18pm
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Originally Posted by Lisi View Post
No, I never said my machine was overpowered and the cause of the problems, it is actually the torch that is just too much for the work I want to do. Even so, technically my Airsep is overkill for these small torches, and it can run two of them. Although, the colors in question are a little better with a 5lpm concentrator. I tried the Bobcat out on one of those for about a week to see the difference.

It's an Airsep AS-12A (high pressure model 18psi), which was one of the very expensive alternatives to the OG-15 back in the day. $1000 more than the OG, to be exact. I bought this a few years before these souped up oxygen concentrators came on the market. I've have had some real lampworking boro pros tell me my machine is one of the best out there, which is really good to know. Nine years and it still functions the same as it did brand new, so I never needed to have it tested, and this machine is completely maintenance-free. The only thing I have to do is wash the foam filter. Yes, the torch has always performed the same, and the candles are all even and blue. In fact, a lot of people complain about carbon build-up on their torch face. I get very little of that, which shows when I notice one of the candles is slightly shorter. I just have to scrape a little to get it off, and I also use the port cleaning wire after 4-5 torching sessions.

The lpm runs at 15, and if I work hotter for boro it runs up to about 18. The max is 20 lpm. Besides, it is the very low oxygen (air) torch like the Hothead that gives me much better Effetre reds and BE pinks than the Bobcat. I don't think the problem I have is needing more oxygen, or "purer" oxygen. I'm pretty sure if I had a problem with the purity, that would definitely show in the furnace glass pinks I use a lot. They are very sensitive to reduction and need a lot of oxygen.

I just need less heat and a softer more gentle flame!
Do you have any yellow tips on the ends of the blue candles?

The Bobcat can most definitely be dialed down to a soft, gentle flame.
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Last edited by kbinkster; 2012-12-30 at 12:21pm.
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  #10  
Old 2012-12-30, 12:50pm
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Do you have any yellow tips on the ends of the blue candles?

The Bobcat can most definitely be dialed down to a soft, gentle flame.
No, not after the generator warms up for a few minutes. It has a small holding tank. I can dial it down pretty low where the blue flame is about 9" long. But I thought I read somewhere (on WC a long time ago) that if you turn the GTT flame down lower than that, you could damage the torch face, and that only highly experienced lampworkers can do it safely.
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Old 2012-12-30, 1:02pm
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No, not after the generator warms up for a few minutes. It has a small holding tank. I can dial it down pretty low where the blue flame is about 9" long. But I thought I read somewhere (on WC a long time ago) that if you turn the GTT flame down lower than that, you could damage the torch face, and that only highly experienced lampworkers can do it safely.
Lisi! I think we've cracked the problem!

You have been running an oxidizing flame. No wonder you're burning out your pinks.

Your candles will help you know the flame chemistry. A neutral flame will have yellow/white tips on the ends of the candles. The shorter the yellow/white tips, the more oxygen rich the flame is (and no tips is definitely a highly oxidized flame). The longer the yellow/white tips, the more fuel-rich the flame is.

A solid neutral flame suitable for working soft glass will generally have candles that are about 1/4" to 3/8" long with yellow/white tips on them that are 1-2mm (and the sweet spot for working soft glass would be about 3-4" from the face of the torch, further out with longer candles). The more fuel you add, or the more oxygen you take away, the longer those tips will be. The more oxygen you add, or the more fuel you take away, the shorter the tips will be. You can tell when a flame is about to go into reduction when the yellow tips of the candles start forming little points (feathering or streaking). Otherwise, they are nice and rounded.

When you run tips that are shorter than 1/4" in length, then you do not want tips on the ends of the candles. This would be true for any surface mix torch to prevent overheating the torch face.
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Old 2012-12-30, 3:24pm
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Wow...in all these years no one has ever pointed out the details of the flame chemistry and candle length having something to do with the BE pink going white. I always thought the oxidizing flame was supposed to be a little "hissy", and almost all the way up to the point you hear the hiss, it's neutral. I don't know why I thought any sign of the yellow tips was a reducing flame!

So I have learned today that it can still be oxidizing too much without being dialed to the hissy point. Hmmm! Oh, BTW...I can't hear the hiss anymore because I don't have hearing aids and the generator drowns it out anyway. But over the years I have became familiar with how the highly oxidizing flame looks on this torch.

Thank you so much!! So now I have some serious PPP on my studio schedule! I will get out the dusty BE and Effetre reds, practice with dialing in the proper neutral flame, and re-learn some newbie skills.
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Old 2012-12-30, 4:03pm
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You are so very welcome!
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Old 2012-12-30, 4:38pm
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A friend of mine works BE with the same torch and does not burn out the colors. She uses tanked oxy but I seriously doubt that has anything to do with it. Contrary to popular belief the archer is more important than the arrow. Learning flame chemistry on whatever torch you have is key.
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Old 2012-12-30, 5:07pm
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A friend of mine works BE with the same torch and does not burn out the colors. She uses tanked oxy but I seriously doubt that has anything to do with it. Contrary to popular belief the archer is more important than the arrow. Learning flame chemistry on whatever torch you have is key.
It truly is a "duhhh" moment for me, because I really thought I had tried everything - More oxy, less oxy, further out, dial it down, etc. Oh, and another real PITA which only aggravated me more: trying to "strike" these colors! agghh
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Old 2012-12-30, 6:15pm
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Should show us pics if you get the pinks again!


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Old 2012-12-30, 6:30pm
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Should show us pics if you get the pinks again!


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I will!
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Old 2013-01-02, 9:03pm
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yup. Pictures might help.
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Old 2013-01-02, 9:16pm
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If I can get my laptop to work tonight I'll search for the photos of the ugly over-chewed bubble gum color made with the Bullseye on the Bobcat. Here is the same glass and I used the Hothead to make these, about ten years ago. Quite a difference. Boy...was I disappointed with the whole oxy/propane deal! That is why I never sold the HH, but I can't get the fuel for it anymore.

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Old 2013-01-03, 9:24am
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I made these a very long time ago so I had to search for a while to find them. This picture shows how nice the Bullseye salmon pink and Reichenbach cranberry (frit size #0) combination is, and they were made with the Hothead. Nice rich raspberry color, and I really miss it.



Here are the ugly ones made with the Mini CC, and this is the same glass. (trust me, they were ugly) The bottom pic is a larger frit grain (size #1), and here you can see how washed out the base color of BE salmon pink is. The etched set was especially disappointing and etching them didn't make them any better. I had made over 30 of them to get a matching set, because the streaking/fading was really inconsistent from bead to bead.



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Old 2013-01-03, 12:52pm
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That really has made a difference!


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Old 2013-01-03, 1:37pm
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You might consider a forced air/propane torch, like the Japanese torches artcoinc.com sells. That is, unless you've got the problem solved by turning the flame down. I find that a smaller flame is generally a cooler flame, so it goes beyond simply the propane/oxygen ratio.
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Old 2013-01-03, 6:19pm
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That really has made a difference!


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The ugly beads were made in early 2004, right after I got the Mini CC. Several attempts over the years yielded the same results, so I gave up and put the Bullseye away. Now with the new advice I have received on the flame chemistry and candle length, I will try again.

I hope I get raspberry and not faded yuck!
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Old 2013-01-03, 6:41pm
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Awesome advice Kimberly! I didn't know that info either. Thank you!!

Lisi good luck with your new flame!!
Sue
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Old 2013-01-03, 11:55pm
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Tried Effetre light red just a short while ago. Just one big spacer bead, and that is MUCH better.
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Old 2013-01-04, 6:48am
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Tried Effetre light red just a short while ago. Just one big spacer bead, and that is MUCH better.
Yay!
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