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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2006-12-01, 9:29am
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Default ZippZ and transparents, problems anyone?

Okay, so I bought the much awaited "fixed" formula of ZippZ. I also bought new mandrels to go with it. I still had the cracking of the release. I decided to call them to see what was up. After a bunch of questions from them, including weather or not I had a dehumidifier in the room, it came down to adding 1/4 teaspoon of distilled water. Walla! Nice smooth release without any cracks. Well, then came the next problem, and here is where I need input.... Every single time I use a transparent color, it immediately bubbles up on me, even as I'm laying down the footprint. I thought it was me having a bad night at the torch, but then I decided to use the same transparents on Fusion bead release. Not one bubble!!!!! Now, I'm by no means a newbie at beadmaking, so, I don't understand what's happening.

I would sure love anyone else's take on this. What has anyone experiences with it. I've tried it many different ways (preheating the mandrel til it glows, not preheating the mandrel, working with a cooler flame, working with a hot flame)

I'd like to get this to work since I've just designed a new wholesale line that used stricktly transparents and it would be nice to have a nice see-through bead.

HELP anyone.
BTW, I've been trying out Kragg Mud also. No bubbles with that one, but haven't gotten it to clean out althougther yet.
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  #2  
Old 2006-12-01, 10:18am
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No help with your problem, but try Lime Away for cleaning the release. Clean as a whistle!
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  #3  
Old 2006-12-01, 10:43am
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I've been using Zippz release. If I don't heat it a BUNCH, slow then up to glowing, then dull glow on the mandrel as I put the glass on, I'll run the risk of bubbles. (Some of those are attributable to Newbie-ness, Im sure!).

I have noticed 1) that there is less cracking if I let them air dry overnight 2) if I'm flame drying, I waft it in and out of the flame like I do for glass it's ok 3) even though there may be a small crack in the release, my bead still slides right off the mandrel.

But I have to say, I love this release! It's very forgiving, strong and SUPER easy to clean out. I haven't gotten a bead stuck on the mandrel yet.
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  #4  
Old 2006-12-01, 10:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glassgoodies View Post
No help with your problem, but try Lime Away for cleaning the release. Clean as a whistle!
Hmmmmm, more details please. Straight or diluted Lime Away? How long do you soak? What bead release are you using?

So far I've tried 15 min soak in straight Lime Away, but that didn't do it. I've got a bead soaking longer now. I'm using Foster's Heavy Duty release.
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  #5  
Old 2006-12-01, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judi_B View Post
Hmmmmm, more details please. Straight or diluted Lime Away? How long do you soak? What bead release are you using?

So far I've tried 15 min soak in straight Lime Away, but that didn't do it. I've got a bead soaking longer now. I'm using Foster's Heavy Duty release.
I have a feeling she meant for Kragg Mud since I said I have trouble cleaning the realese out totally
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  #6  
Old 2006-12-01, 6:43pm
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Hi Nancy,

Glad to hear that a touch of water solved your cracking issue. Don't be surprised if you need to do that again from time to time. It's pretty much a fact of life that most releases get thirsty over time, and anytime ZippZ cracks it's telling you exactly that. Sorry for the 64-question routine on the phone, but we try to cover all bases anytime a customer is having problems.

On the bubbling problem, you may want to check out the "Bubble Bubble Toil & Trouble" thread at the link below. Lots of folks using lots of releases with lots of frustrations, but the cool thing is that toward the end of the thread everyone learned from each other and was having fewer problems.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=38728

I'll copy my post to that thread here as well, and know that it's based upon POUNDS of transparent test beads I've personally made throughout the 1.5-yr. development of ZippZ!
.....
"With transparents and whites/pales I find that if I get the glass too hot, too fast, it's bubbly before it even touches the mandrel. Could be excessive thermal expansion and/or metal oxides reacting a bit, but that's just a guess.

Generally I get the least bubbles by flaming the release really well everywhere glass is going to end up (i.e. glowing the release and mandrel all the way around) then applying the first layer of glass a bit on the cooler side. This combination prevents "mandrel puffer" bubbles, which leaves only those I manage to trap in there myself while wrapping.

Recently I've avoided trapping in bubbles by just laying down a honkin blob of glass and pressing harder in the center to spread it a bit, then flowing and marvering it into a tube of the desired length. Once that's done I fatten it up as needed by wrapping on another layer of glass over the first, and adding a little extra wrap at the ends if I need to doughnut them up a little better."
.....

Nancy, the "hotter mandrel + cooler glass @ first wrap" technique should solve your bubbling issue with ZippZ. Probably with most other releases as well, based on other postings in the thread I referenced above. I almost never get bubbles anymore unless I'm in a hurry, and once you get the hang of it, you won't either.

Please feel free to call or email again anytime, I'll try to go easier on the questions next time!

You and other users may also want to reference our "ZippZ TippZ" thread from time to time (now posted in the "Marketing" section of LE at

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=38376

and soon to be downloadable from our website.)

Hope this helps,

John
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  #7  
Old 2006-12-01, 8:12pm
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Well, I'm not one to give up. I tried it again tonight and had success. I got the mandrel glowing and added very cool glass to it a the cooler end of the flame. Now I can't wait til tomorrow to get the beads out of the kiln. Thanks so much for your help on this. I wasn't going to let it beat me
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  #8  
Old 2006-12-01, 8:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judi_B View Post
Hmmmmm, more details please. Straight or diluted Lime Away? How long do you soak? What bead release are you using?

So far I've tried 15 min soak in straight Lime Away, but that didn't do it. I've got a bead soaking longer now. I'm using Foster's Heavy Duty release.
I use Dip n Go Sludge, soak in straight Lime Away (spray bottle) and use a pipe cleaner. How long I soak depends on how anxious I am to get them clean. I tend to dip my mandrels pretty thickly, so the beads usually have quite a bit of gunk in them and 10-15 minutes has generally been long enough, though some have been left overnight (not because it needed overnight soaking, but because I'm just lazy). Someone else mentioned that they use CLR, which is basically the same as Lime Away. I'm going try it this weekend to see if it works any better (or worse).
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  #9  
Old 2006-12-01, 8:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glassgoodies View Post
I use Dip n Go Sludge, soak in straight Lime Away (spray bottle) and use a pipe cleaner. How long I soak depends on how anxious I am to get them clean. I tend to dip my mandrels pretty thickly, so the beads usually have quite a bit of gunk in them and 10-15 minutes has generally been long enough, though some have been left overnight (not because it needed overnight soaking, but because I'm just lazy). Someone else mentioned that they use CLR, which is basically the same as Lime Away. I'm going try it this weekend to see if it works any better (or worse).
Thanks Shawnette. I tried 1 hr in the straight Lime Away (squeeze bottle) and then a pipe cleaner. Didn't work very well for the Foster's. Be careful with the CLR. Someone said that it could be used as an etch. I tried it several months ago and it did a funny kind of etch after a long time (overnight, I think).
Judi
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  #10  
Old 2006-12-01, 9:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaleidoglass View Post
Well, I'm not one to give up. I tried it again tonight and had success. I got the mandrel glowing and added very cool glass to it a the cooler end of the flame. Now I can't wait til tomorrow to get the beads out of the kiln. Thanks so much for your help on this. I wasn't going to let it beat me

AttaGirl, Nancy! And Ooooooohhhh I checked out your website and love your stuff, especially the transparents (kinda got a thing for those...) Beautiful work! Can't wait to hear how you like the ones you made tonight after annealing and cleaning! BTW, did you get your order during the time we were sending out test samples of polish? If not, let me know. If so, PM me the code from the lower right corner of the label. Need to know if you got the final final final version or not...

John
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  #11  
Old 2006-12-02, 2:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judi_B View Post
Thanks Shawnette. I tried 1 hr in the straight Lime Away (squeeze bottle) and then a pipe cleaner. Didn't work very well for the Foster's. Be careful with the CLR. Someone said that it could be used as an etch. I tried it several months ago and it did a funny kind of etch after a long time (overnight, I think).
Judi
The squeeze bottle is the creamy formula, correct? The liquid will probably work better because it can actually soak into the release, whereas the cream would just sort of sit on top.
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  #12  
Old 2006-12-02, 7:10am
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The squeeze bottle is the creamy formula, correct? The liquid will probably work better because it can actually soak into the release, whereas the cream would just sort of sit on top.
It says "New Thicker Formula" on the bottle, but its not creamy or thick at all. It's very watery, somewhere between windex and a toilet bowl cleaner I don't think there's a problem with it soaking into the release. It was the only Lime Away available at my grocery store. I'll keep an eye out for the spray bottle just in case it makes a difference. Thanks for the help.
Judi
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Old 2006-12-02, 2:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glassgoodies
I use Dip n Go Sludge, soak in straight Lime Away (spray bottle) and use a pipe cleaner. How long I soak depends on how anxious I am to get them clean. I tend to dip my mandrels pretty thickly, so the beads usually have quite a bit of gunk in them and 10-15 minutes has generally been long enough, though some have been left overnight (not because it needed overnight soaking, but because I'm just lazy). Someone else mentioned that they use CLR, which is basically the same as Lime Away. I'm going try it this weekend to see if it works any better (or worse).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judi_B View Post
Thanks Shawnette. I tried 1 hr in the straight Lime Away (squeeze bottle) and then a pipe cleaner. Didn't work very well for the Foster's. Be careful with the CLR. Someone said that it could be used as an etch. I tried it several months ago and it did a funny kind of etch after a long time (overnight, I think).
Judi
Folks - not sure how this turned from a bead-making to a bead-cleaning discussion, but since it has and I've got a pH meter handy, here's a little hard data on the corrosive solutions some of you are using to clean beads.

Hopefully this will help everyone doing so to take proper safety precautions and avoid using these chemicals anywhere kids/grandkids/pets etc. might come into contact with them and suffer potentially serious or fatal injury.

For those not familiar, the pH scale runs from 0.00 (max acidity) to 14.00 (max alkalinity). Getting within 2-3 of either end of this scale will cause significant skin/eye irritation very quickly. Getting within 1-1.5 of either end of the pH scale will cause skin/eye/tissue damage and burns, almost on contact. Chemicals in that range carry "DANGER" signal words on the label, as do both CLR and Lime-Away, as they are both dangerously acidic.

Diluting 1:1 with water reduces the concentration but doesn't affect pH as much as you'd think, so I measured them in dilutions as well as full-strength.

CLR lactic+gluconic acids pH = 1.50 50/50 in tap water = 1.52

Lime-Away
(liq./spray) sulfamic acid pH = 1.02 50/50 in tap water = 1.00
(toilet gel) hydrochloric acid pH = 0.42 50/50 in tap water = 0.54

One other note is that the two Lime-Aways tested are absolutely incompatible with each other despite having similar-looking labels, and will react violently if mixed, forming a toxic gas cloud in the process. Standard Lime-Away already gives off "harmful to inhale" vapors as is, but the gel is in my opinion more hazardous to have sitting around in unmarked jars of pretty beads. It's been dyed and fragranced into looking and smelling almost tasty, not unlike lime Kool-Aid.

Prior to creating ZippZ we resorted to these bead-cleaning techniques as well, right up until Marilynn ended up with CLR-induced chemical burns. That's about the time we decided there had to be a better way.

So now we use window cleaner (pH 10.0, about 1.0 away from tap water.)


John
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Old 2006-12-02, 3:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZingZ! View Post
Quote:
Folks - not sure how this turned from a bead-making to a bead-cleaning discussion
The original post included a statement about problems cleaning beads made using Kragg Mud. Hence the discussion of bead cleaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZingZ! View Post
Quote:
... So now we use window cleaner (pH 10.0, about 1.0 away from tap water.)
John
Actually pH 10 is still pretty alkaline. The pH of tap water should be near 7.
Thanks for the info on the window cleaner. When I tried the sample of ZippZ I loved the smooth surface and the way it worked in the flame, but couldn't get the bead holes clean with my window cleaner - a vinegar based cleaner I'll try again with an ammonia-containing cleaner.
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Old 2006-12-02, 3:54pm
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Why don't you guys just get electric bead hole cleaners?
I got one from Rio Grande and it is awesome!
Cleans my holes up nice and clean... and quick too!

Chemicals scare me so I try to stay away from them if I can...
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Old 2006-12-02, 4:00pm
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Why don't you guys just get electric bead hole cleaners?
I got one from Rio Grande and it is awesome!
Cleans my holes up nice and clean... and quick too!

Chemicals scare me so I try to stay away from them if I can...
I have one, but the diamond bit scratches the glass and transparent beads always end up with a "frosted" hole. I don't want to use clear nail polish to finish the hole, as it will eventually wear off. Thus the great search for the "perfect" release or cleaner
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Old 2006-12-02, 4:36pm
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"Why don't we just get motorized bead reamers?"

My personal reasons: Too strenous on my hands, took precious time I could be making beads instead, and finally, because I hate having my bead holes (especially on transparents) scratched and distorted by the reamers.

Another benefit was that I got rid of the dangerous chemicals and stopped using them for purposes they weren't meant for.

Marilynn
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  #18  
Old 2006-12-02, 8:49pm
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Hi Judi,

Yep, I re-read the original post and there it was. Sorry, I missed that question the first time around and had been just a little lost... Still am, I suppose, since I've never used KM and can't speak at all to what cleans it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judi_B View Post
The original post included a statement about problems cleaning beads made using Kragg Mud. Hence the discussion of bead cleaning.


Actually pH 10 is still pretty alkaline. The pH of tap water should be near 7.
Thanks for the info on the window cleaner. When I tried the sample of ZippZ I loved the smooth surface and the way it worked in the flame, but couldn't get the bead holes clean with my window cleaner - a vinegar based cleaner I'll try again with an ammonia-containing cleaner.
I agree. pH 10 definitely isn't a hand soak, but it doesn't injure with reasonable care. Distilled water is around 6.8 - 7.0, but with as much limestone as we have in the ground (and groundwater) around here, our tap water never gets below 8.5 and runs up to 9 a lot of the time.

And yes, I can see that I wasn't clear enough in my instructions... I'd forgotten that a lot of folks use vinegar-based glass cleaners, and those won't clean beads very well at all.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll edit my instructions to specify ammonia glass cleaners. That should work better, but the real kicker is a squirt of liquid hand or dish soap on the pipe cleaner to really suds it up well.

Please feel free to PM, email, or call me if you have any questions or need assistance getting the results you want. Always glad to help!

John
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  #19  
Old 2006-12-03, 1:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judi_B View Post
I have one, but the diamond bit scratches the glass and transparent beads always end up with a "frosted" hole. I don't want to use clear nail polish to finish the hole, as it will eventually wear off. Thus the great search for the "perfect" release or cleaner

Will this do?

Dremeled




UN-Dremeled with ZappZ! Polish (view 1)




UN-Dremeled with ZappZ! Polish (view 2)






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Old 2006-12-03, 7:51am
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Is that bead hole completely dry?

Oh yeah, that would do nicely! More details please. How'd you get that and which bead releases does it work on?
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Old 2006-12-03, 9:36am
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Is that bead hole completely dry?

Oh yeah, that would do nicely! More details please. How'd you get that and which bead releases does it work on?

Yep, completely dry... gave it 10 minutes under a heat lamp just to be sure. The bead still looks just as wet this morning, but I'm pretty sure it isn't...!

The Details, per your request:

This bead's actually been to this lustre twice.

First time around the bead was made using ZippZ, then cleaned out per instructions to a nice smooth (but not quite this glossy, of course) internal-surface finish. After cleaning it was polished with ZAPPZ! Optical-Grade Bead Polish to a lustre just as good as (if not a little better than) the picture above. The polishing step took very little time since the internal surface was already so smooth.

Then I dremeled it with a diamond file slightly larger than the 3/32" bead hole just to be sure I was into a completely new glass surface all the way around and through the hole. As usual, this step scuffed it up into the opaque "white-out" appearance that diamond files always leave behind (picture 1).

Then I re-polished it with ZAPPZ! to completely remove the scuff marks and restore the original lustre. This took a little longer since there was more polishing to do, but nothing outside the realm of reason.

As to what releases this will work with, Dremels cure all release-cleaning issues so it will work with any release you follow with a diamond file. Which covers them all. And with all but the most gritty releases, ZAPPZ! will clean out the release too, so you can skip the diamond-filing step to minimize polishing time.

So regardless of what release you use or what you do to make or clean the bead (short of a hammer) ZAPPZ! will fix it and leave your beads glowing from the inside out. Using it together with ZippZ! will get you there faster, but either way you'll get there!

John
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Old 2006-12-03, 9:48am
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So John, Is ZAPPZ! Optical-Grade Bead Polish available yet?
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Old 2006-12-03, 9:59am
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Nope, haven't sold a drop of the stuff yet. Once final preps are complete (VERY soon) it'll be announced in the appropriate Marketing sections of LE and other forums. I'll be sure to let you know personally once that happens.

John
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Old 2006-12-03, 10:04am
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Thanks John
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Old 2006-12-09, 4:48pm
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Judi:

Got your PayPal. You should have your order in just a few days!

Don't hesitate to let us know if you have any questions. Thanks!

Marilynn
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  #26  
Old 2006-12-10, 7:43am
CarolinaDreamDesigns CarolinaDreamDesigns is offline
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so if you don't use a Dremel - what would you suggest to clean along with your product?

thanks -

Martha
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Old 2006-12-10, 5:45pm
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ZingZ! ZingZ! is offline
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We use either a regular mandrel or a stiff tobacco pipe cleaner and get great results. Of course, we start out using ZippZ! Bead Release.

Regardless of what bead release you use, you can end up with the same clarity - just some brands require more time and effort.

Marilynn
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Old 2006-12-10, 9:55pm
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One other nugget I thought I'd pass along... we also now use ZAPPZ! for all of our exterior-surface polishing tasks as well. It works just fine on any of the standard dremel felt pads, and restores full luster to outer bead surfaces that've been filed down just as quickly as it works on bead holes. And it works in one step, rather than having to work your way down through several grades of stick polish. Felt pads are also the tool of choice for large-mandrel bead holes that can accomodate them.

Of course, glass artists being the inventive lot they are, I'm sure that lots of new tools and techniques will be developed by current & future ZAPPZ! users. No harm in that whatsoever, we're not married to any particular tools or tool suppliers and would never pretend to know all the tricks. Whatever you can put it on to reach what needs polishing, ZAPPZ! should work just fine!

John
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