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Customer Service Kiosk -- Questions for LE vendors.

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  #1  
Old 2015-03-01, 10:24am
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Default Rant about CIM prices

How can a pound of glass be priced at $55 here and end up at $25 there is beyond my understanding. You suppose you get a bargain because of a permanent ongoing "sale" but somewhere else the real prices are being discounted for a real bargain. Now you feel you've been screwed.
It's as simple as that. Happened with Jellyfish, happens with Duck Egg, always random pricing and bullshit explanations. I'm tired of it. Just price everything at real value and make a difference on your shipping rates or something else.
Rant over, have a lovely Sunday.
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  #2  
Old 2015-03-01, 10:47am
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I have to say I agree with you 100%!!!
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  #3  
Old 2015-03-01, 10:50am
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Glass prices skyrocketed once the major importer realized what the market would bear in the feeding frenzy over odd lots. CiM also appears to have recognized this, and I have always suspected a huge profit margin.
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  #4  
Old 2015-03-01, 3:59pm
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Hear hear.
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  #5  
Old 2015-03-01, 6:16pm
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Odd lots have now been turned into limited production.
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  #6  
Old 2015-03-01, 7:44pm
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It's a retailer's game, just like $9.99 is NOT $10.00
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  #7  
Old 2015-03-02, 6:40am
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Agreed, but it's not just cim. Some of the effetre odds are a lot too. I mentioned in the "maniac" thread that 15.00 1/4lb is just too much for a coral. It was lowered but still. I Hear this so often lately, I think the odd lot thing was milked too long.

Also would like to add I'd rather have stable permanent colors than 50 limited batches.
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  #8  
Old 2015-03-02, 5:35pm
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Looks like you guys are finally getting screwed like the boro crowd. Any new colors for us are all around $100 per pound. Hype colors like atomic kumquat and electric flamingo have sold for $200-300+ per pound...
I couod go into a long diatribe about hipsters and the econmy and a glass revival, but the point remains, its all about money now and not about the art or the love of glass. Mark my words, this is just the beginnings...
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  #9  
Old 2015-03-02, 7:15pm
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Quote:
Agreed, but it's not just cim. Some of the effetre odds are a lot too. I mentioned in the "maniac" thread that 15.00 1/4lb is just too much for a coral. It was lowered but still. I Hear this so often lately, I think the odd lot thing was milked too long.
So the price was lowered just because you mentioned it was too high?
Goes to show how random and out of place their pricing politics are. Every time we dare say that maybe $60-85-90/lb is a little steep for whatever color is coming out, we get a different answer about shipping/rare raw materials/wholesale bulk buying/whatever. But when we shop around we see the same colors for a much more affordable price. Where's the logic here?
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  #10  
Old 2015-03-02, 7:24pm
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Compare Frantz to Ed Hoy. It's about 15% lower than Frantz's 30% deals.

And they get CIM.
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  #11  
Old 2015-03-02, 8:07pm
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It was my understanding that Ed Hoy only wants to deal with retailers. Have I been misguided???
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  #12  
Old 2015-03-02, 8:12pm
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Ed Hoy has minimum requirements and does deal mostly with resellers such as myself.
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  #13  
Old 2015-03-02, 8:37pm
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Quote:
It was my understanding that Ed Hoy only wants to deal with retailers. Have I been misguided???

Yes, and no. He wants to deal with large volume buyers. $750 the first order, and $500 annually. But you must have a business tax id number, licensed business etc.



In order to purchase from Ed Hoy’s do I have to own a retail store?
No, Ed Hoy’s sells to glass businesses, not just “brick and mortar” businesses. Please see our wholesale qualifications for more information
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  #14  
Old 2015-03-02, 8:38pm
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Wholesale Applications are reviewed within two business days of receipt.
You may be requested to provide additional information to further qualify your application. Upon approval, you will receive our catalog, and access to pricing and availability on our web store. Wholesale Application approval does not convey credit approval. A separate credit application may be requested upon receiving wholesale application approval.

Please have the following documents available for submittal with your application.
Copy of Resale or Tax Exempt Certificate
Business License
Copy of business card
Examples of marketing material for the business, i.e. website, listing of shows, flyers, etc.
Upon the approval of your Wholesale Application, the following purchasing requirements are expected:
Initial product order of $700
Annual (Jan 1st to Dec 31st) requirement of purchases accumulating to $500
After initial order minimum individual order of $75
Additional savings are rewarded to our Premier Customers. Account evaluation is ongoing. Ask a sales person for more information.
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  #15  
Old 2015-03-02, 8:40pm
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However, either way... Ed Hoy is still less than Frantz's "big sale" prices. So it's still leaves the question, how are prices set, and why are they varied?
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  #16  
Old 2015-03-02, 10:15pm
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I guess we all have our preferences. I have several colors of Lauscha and it's one of my least used glass. I use some Vetro, and a little more effetre but I adore CIM.
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  #17  
Old 2015-03-02, 11:51pm
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^same.

Quote:
So the price was lowered just because you mentioned it was too high?
Goes to show how random and out of place their pricing politics are. Every time we dare say that maybe $60-85-90/lb is a little steep for whatever color is coming out, we get a different answer about shipping/rare raw materials/wholesale bulk buying/whatever. But when we shop around we see the same colors for a much more affordable price. Where's the logic here?
no idea, i just know it went down in price. Still not keen on 11.00 for a coral lol
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  #18  
Old 2015-03-03, 9:12am
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EXACTLY!! Recently a vendor advertised that would be receiving 20 or so "brand new" CIM colors. The colors were never made before. When the colors were released about 75% were limited runs. Really? Sorry, i don't buy into that theory!

If a manufacturer wants to produce New colors then by all means produce NEW colors!

Duane

Quote:
Agreed, but it's not just cim. Some of the effetre odds are a lot too. I mentioned in the "maniac" thread that 15.00 1/4lb is just too much for a coral. It was lowered but still. I Hear this so often lately, I think the odd lot thing was milked too long.

Also would like to add I'd rather have stable permanent colors than 50 limited batches.
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  #19  
Old 2015-03-03, 9:30am
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realistically though odd lots ( and limited runs) exist because "something" happened during manufacturing that caused the color to not be as expected or manufacturers are experimenting with colors and they cannot consistently reproduce - Hence odds/ limiteds - Manufacturers now try to list those as some fantastic creation that is worth a ton of money - mainly because it cant be reproduced consistently. Take a negative and make it a plus.

Supply and demand typically shows they are going to get what they ask for in terms of price. If supply dropped - prices would go down....
104 artists are starting to see prices reflective of what boro artists have been paying for a while.

I have become fascinated with Amber Cowan's work - she makes gorgeous glass utilizing things like wine bottles and thrift store glass. There's a ton of glass out there - we as artists just need to learn how to be more "creative" on our supply instead of letting vendors drive our wants and ultimately driving up the price of glass.... Bottom line - you don't need 60.00/lb glass to make beautiful things - the know they have you when they make "pretty colors" because most of us have that "Shiny" syndrome LOL

Keep in mind that vendors also receive discounts from the manufacturers based on volume so vendors that buy larger quantities get bigger discounts and as such can pass the savings on to you so the prices differ between vendors.

Last edited by nevadaglass; 2015-03-03 at 9:38am.
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  #20  
Old 2015-03-03, 9:39am
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I met Amber at Corning. Her work is fascinating!
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  #21  
Old 2015-03-03, 9:41am
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Quote:
I met Amber at Corning. Her work is fascinating!
I just discovered her work - I really like her work, especially her bowls created from lampworked and fused wine bottles and thrift store glass finds.
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  #22  
Old 2015-03-03, 11:16am
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I love love love Lauscha. It melts like a dream. The colors are fantastic.

Here is how Kathy of Messy Color explained the Ltd Runs.

Quote:
... Our Ltd Runs in 2014 were largely mis-melts of old colors we were trying to reproduce to keep up with demand.

Although most of the [2015] new colors below are not mis-melts, we have chosen to call them "Ltd Runs." In general, we have to melt a formula 5 times before we have a solid understanding of how difficult or easy it will be to reproduce accurately.

... we plan to melt [the new Ltd Runs] on demand in accordance with what artists are asking for. To make a request,
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The Ltd Runs we have enough experience melting to say with confidence that we can reproduce again accurately are: Bordello, Sea Foam, Mint Lozenge, Peacock Green, Soylent, Split Pea, Sherwood, French Blue, Halong Bay, Cornflower, Zachary, Count von Count, Larkspur, Khaki, Sepia, Mink, Chalcedony, Ming, and Pink Champagne. We have sporadic success with Pumpkin, Lipstick, Galapagos, Tuscan Teal, Berry Mist, Butter Pecan, and Chai.

All other Ltd Runs (including the new ones ...) do not have enough melt history for us to predict how accurately we will be able to reproduce the hue. (Emphasis added.)

Feel free to email me at
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  #23  
Old 2015-03-03, 12:28pm
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People forget how easy it is to make a "new" color just by mixing some old ones together. You can make your own custom made colors from glass that you already have! Kay has an entire website devoted to color mixing. Somewhere.
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Old 2015-03-03, 12:51pm
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Quote:
People forget how easy it is to make a "new" color just by mixing some old ones together. You can make your own custom made colors from glass that you already have! Kay has an entire website devoted to color mixing. Somewhere.
Sue Ellen Fowler also teaches a color mixing class that provides the knowledge of various chemicals ( nickel, iron, chromium, cadmium, cobalt, etc.) to add to your glass to get colors.

Last edited by nevadaglass; 2015-03-03 at 12:53pm.
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Old 2015-03-03, 3:13pm
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All I was asking from vendors and distributors is that they be upfront and honest about what they're doing. One of them PMd me and I'm grateful that I know a little more about how it works, but I hate that it can't be discussed publicly. Mostly, I hate that us the customers are the #1 losers in the game.

I want it to be clear that I am not blaming Kathy for producing Ltd Runs (although it kind of goes against the "availability" and "consistency" parts of the tagline in my opinion but it would be indeed a waste not to put them on the market). I just wish she would price them upfront instead of letting the market jungle do its thing and give way to such speculation.

I also wish glass artists (boro people included) were not milked like that, with a few bones thrown in sometimes with "new colors" and "special sales" stories to ease the pain.
It's business, money runs it, I get it, but sometimes it goes a little too far in the bullshit department.
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Old 2015-03-03, 3:54pm
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I wish some of those limited would become available all the time. It tells me that they're experimenting moreso than investing in research to find new stable colors. I like the color variety and the up front this is similar but different tonality, or exact but different chemical recipe. I appreciate that, really. But I'd like to see new colors I can fall in love with, and expect them later.

So everybody fell in love with Duckegg. CIM says they'll consider turning ltd runs into general availability. But has that ever happened? That's my beef.
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Old 2015-03-04, 12:29am
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^agreed, and how can they reproduce a limited if it's a 'mistake'?

I'm not buying that they are all 'mistakes', not anymore at least. There's a heck of a lot more mistakes than years past. If that's the case, where are the permanent colors along with mistakes? Both CIM and Effetre produce an awful lot of limited colors lately.

And I'm glad Flonche got her answer, meanwhile the lot of us sit and wonder still, and make up our own theories. Mine is the high resale prices of colors like river rock and other limiteds made a lightbulb go off in 'someone's" head and poof we have limiteds at high prices.
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  #28  
Old 2015-03-04, 5:27am
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It is a "Supply and Demand" situation. People want it bad enough, they will pay for it.

If people just ALL decided not to buy it anymore, prices would come down.

It's called "free enterprise." I hate paying the price too but if I want it, what choice do I have? Buy it or don't.

I love a good sale though. That's when I tend to stock up.

Sue
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  #29  
Old 2015-03-04, 7:59am
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Quote:
It is a "Supply and Demand" situation. People want it bad enough, they will pay for it.

If people just ALL decided not to buy it anymore, prices would come down.

It's called "free enterprise." I hate paying the price too but if I want it, what choice do I have? Buy it or don't.

I love a good sale though. That's when I tend to stock up.

Sue
It is. And unfortunately, it's a nasty circle because once a price is set, it's really hard to break that cycle... Variety of reasons. One being, there are only a couple major distributors of CIM in the country. The second is federal, one can't cut prices too drastically because it impacts the other's business and then you get into some legal issues. Distributor A can't say screw it, I'm not playing the game. I'll sell it a buck over my cost because Distributor B (who had been selling it within a dollar of Distributor A in the past) is selling it at 300% markup. Distributor A has directly contributed to the failing of Distributor B.

The LGS can sell it for however they want, because they have wholesale accounts with Distributor A and Distributor B. The distributors have already received their pound of flesh.

I'm sure there are several other reasons but as I understand, and I may be wrong, but that is a very vague and very brief description of prices and why they can't be tweaked as much as we'd like to see.

The culprit is the manufacturer. Don't get me wrong. I *ADORE* CIM and I"ll pay the price. But I don't like it. I don't appreciate blatant mark up. And while the names are half the fun, it's time to start turning those popular ltds into available colors.
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  #30  
Old 2015-03-04, 9:37am
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Why can't "how it works" be discussed publicly??? I would sure like to know!

It is also not correct that "one can't cut prices drastically" because they will cause someone else to go out of business. The soft glass rod business is all about putting the small vendors out of business. Small vendors have limits on what they can buy and a lot of the times can't get all of the newest colors.

One vendor/importer has been the leader of cutting prices 50% or more. That is a definite attempt to put other dealers out of business. I know that for sure because I was told to my face that there are "too many dealers." Businesses have been putting other businesses out for years. They can do it based on price or better service. Or maybe because they control the market which probably IS illegal if someone wants to take the time to fight with them.

My suggestion is that one dealer has too much power in this particular marketplace. If I were CiM I would want to keep all of my dealers happy. Once the smaller dealers are gone you can bet that will be the end of half off and free shipping promotions and your prices will be higher than ever! Just look at where they were before the economy crashed when you couldn't get a discount until you bought 20 lbs. Does anyone remember that besides me?
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