Propane in the House? NO!

[Flonche]

Wow that was a scary read

[Flonche]

Something's strange with this thread. It's been bumped on page 1 or 2 or 3 of New Posts search for the last few days with my post being the last at today's date. I haven't touched it since 2/15. Anybody else has? Weird.

[Flonche]

Well of course, now it's bumped

[Flonche]

Happening again today... weird

[likes to make glass stuff]

When someone responds to the poll, it bumps it up, leaving the final comment as the newest one.

[Flonche]

aaah I see! Thanks for enlightening me!

[Copperrein]

Ok, here is my planned studio space: http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php...&id=1512096782

It is a second story balcony which has an air vent at the bottom. The whole floor slopes towards the vent. Reading this entire thread has made me want to cancel my mega minor order.

My plan is this: Keep the propane outside at all times unless torching. While torching I will keep it as far from my work area, across the room. Once done...take the thing back outside. How horrible is this setup?

[Copperrein]

Update: (posted from my first thread in 'torches')

Alright! I have an even better plan! (yay)

The distance from the balcony where I will be working to ground level is 15'...so I'll have plenty of hose to reach. All I need now are two quick-connects. Each day when I'm done I'll lock up the cylinder locker (after bleeding the hoses and removing them). Both the propane and oxy cylinders will be chained inside that. I'll get all my 'this can explode' placards and affix them on the locker. Drill a bunch of holes in the bottom and sides of the locker and BAM...safety.

[estevanstudios]

My tank story:
Had a brand new 5 gal. tank, only two fills. It was sitting on the back porch of my studio, not hooked up. I walked by it to take out the trash. Didn't touch it, nothing had bumped it, not in the sun, nothing. As I returned from the trash, I saw a white cloud billowing from the porch. It was coming from the tank. I quickly grabbed it and ran it out to the middle of the yard. Called the fire dept. Propane tank valves have an over pressure relief built in. This valve had failed and was venting off all the fill from a small hole in the tank valve (look at yours, they all have it). When it went, the tank was sitting less that 10 feet from a functioning hot water heater. Had the plume hit the pilot light, BOOM goes the back half of my studio!!!! I now have a new lamp work building, completely separate from my fusing studio. ALL tanks are stored outside and piped in, and the 02 tank is chained to the wall. I have seen what happens when one goes over and knocks off the valve (worked in the commercial dive industry for to many years!) Bottom line is that ANY pressurized gas cylinder is a potential BOOM waiting to happen. It can happen to anyone at any time.

[galaxygirl]

as a newbie lampworker starting to set up a studio, it was worth the last two hours that i spent reading through this entire thread. as a nyc resident, i also wish that i had come across this before thinking that i could realistically set up a studio here in brooklyn, and starting to acquire equipment - even though it's an industrial space. i'm sharing with two other metalsmiths, but i am guessing that using an acetylene/oxy torch would be too dirty to work with glass.

[Mountain Snail]

I set up my torch in my drafty greenhouse. I keep the propane tank at one end, away from the torch. My greenhouse really IS a glasshouse now. ;o)

[wadiefong]

Goodness gracious! I am truly a newbie dork! My propane tank sits right next to me in the basement . I will have to change my set up right away!

Can someone please provide links to what brand and type of "quick release valves" you are using with your propane tank? I've read a few posts where people find this useful for indoor/outdoor use. Any suggestions and information as to how these quick release valves work, would be GREATLY appreciated! I've start googling to see what I can find--there are a number of sources that sell quick connectors with a shut off valve. I already have a regulator hooked up to the propane tank, which I can turn off. I'm imagining "Quick-Release" means you can shut off the gas AND unhook the tank for quick carry outside. Is this right? Sorry for being such a newbie, but I would really appreciate more detailed info, the webstores don't really explain this at all, but lists just the product. Thanks in advance for any help you can give--eagerly awaiting replies

Thank you for creating this very important safety thread!

[Dale M.]

Any "quick disconnect" that will work with welding hoses with probable work in your situation... Quality welding application (glass) quick disconnects should shut off gas flow once you release them, meaning you do not even have to shut down tank valve (but its a really good idea to)... Do not mistakes a compressed air disconnect (most hardware store and auto supply) for a welding style disconnect. They are not the same and do not have the quality required for fuel gases.. Most quick disconnects, flashback arrestors and hoses and regulators are all carry over from welding industry. IF local glass shop or online suppliers can't/won't answer your question to your satisfaction contact local welding shop..

Also about basement studios, here is something you may want to read up on...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=12&t=430

Dale

[wadiefong]

Thank you for that very helpful article on the basement studio, and for explaining the "quick disconnects" Dale!

I'm in the process of moving, and hope to complete the move within a year or so. I will definitely be rethinking on where to setup my lampwork equipment. I need to improve ventilation and overall safety. I am thinking about having the propane tank located outside, with the hose coming indoors only, and then unhooking the tank when I'm finished and storing it in a safe (and distant) place, far away from the house. Geez, I never knew all this stuff, so it really is a lifesaver to read! Thank you so much!

[Ilene]

Its almost two a.m. and I've read this entire thread and now I can't imagine going to sleep before I move that damn propane tank outside. I had no idea about the NFPA rules and regulations, the dangers of having the tank on my sortof enclosed outdoor porch.... on and on.

Five years of beadmaking and I thought I was safe, ewwww such ignorance I'm so disappointed in myself.

We just got a new propane furnace/ac installed for the mere price of almost nine thousand dollars, the guy (our friend for years, small town stuff here) is supposed to come back and put a connection of some sort on the outside wall of my "porch studio" so I can hook up my torch to the propane he supplies us with for the furnace which is under my house (the furnace, NOT the propane) in the huge crawl space at ground level. The propane is in big, big tank in back yard about to be put underground. He has been negligent in returning to our house to do this "manifold" installation thing for my connection. I AM CALLING HIM WHEN THE SUN COMES UP! We have been negligent in contacting him to finish the job.


Oh, man I am so grateful for Mike creating this post and all the info others have offered here.


I definitely don't want to be a fireblob.


Thank you so much for this most important educational, life saving post. You've saved my life here, I mean it.

Ilene

[Ilene]

OK, the propane certified guy from my heating company who installed my furnace will be here next week. Propane tank is OUT of my house never to return.

[HDglassart]

So this is a perfect thread for this question... On a HH when you're torching the tanks get, well really cold. The colder the tank gets the smaller the flame.

My question is I'm moving for the HH to a scorpion and want to keep the tanks outside running lines to them while I torch how would I keep the tank from getting cold and effecting the flame, or am I just being dumb and don't need to worry about that?

[Alaska]

When using a propane tank you will need an acetylene regulator that can be set to 5 psi. Or for that matter, higher or lower depending on your needs.

Unless your outside temperature falls below -44 F you should be fine with a good acetylene regulator. At -20F propane PSIG is 11. At 30 F it is 55 PSIG. At 80 F 128 PSIG, etc.

It is normal for a propane tank to show frost depending on how much fuel is being used. It is a good indicator of the level of the liquid propane.

[Ilene]

Ok, at this moment my propane tank is sitting outside, waiting to be covered over with a tarp until this whole thing is figured out. Also, no torching until then.

This is an excellent thread and valuable information of which I'm sure will and has already saved lives.

Today I learned its totally "illegal to have any bottled propane in a home", including your semi-enclosed porch attached to your home, or your garage attached to your home.

Today I learned for a moment, incredible numbers that were told to me about how propane multiplies by incredible numbers when it explodes and how its just like a bomb.

Today I learned that even for the gas guy to install a manifold and regulator on the outside of my house with only 40lb pressure and I regulate it down to what I need and this "high pressure line" is coming into the house/porch, it is still illegal and dangerous. My furnace only uses 1/2 lb propane.

For anyone trying to torch in a basement, that must be a passive suicidal gesture or just plain "I don't care" perspective.

So... now to either smooze my way back into the outdoor studio (yes, the one my dh took over after we finished building it) or to get a new building on our property. I'm voting for the second option.

[shellybeads]

I agree the tank should be outside. Why take the risk.

[oftenred]

I understand that the propane pressure should be at 20 psi or less entering the enclosed area. My question is where do you get a (fixed??) regulator to fit to the bbq tanks. I have checked with 4 different propane companies, and none of themhas ever heard of any such regulator. They all have regulators to fit the large 50 to 1000 gal tanks. Is this what folks are using?

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by oftenred

I understand that the propane pressure should be at 20 psi or less entering the enclosed area. My question is where do you get a (fixed??) regulator to fit to the bbq tanks. I have checked with 4 different propane companies, and none of themhas ever heard of any such regulator. They all have regulators to fit the large 50 to 1000 gal tanks. Is this what folks are using?

Actual pressure allowed to enter building is regulated by local building codes. Some areas allow up to 20 psi, other areas only 10psi.

Also most propane companies (local deliver) never do anything but "normal" appliance supply at anything other then 1/4 to 1/3 psi (about 11-13IW (inches water)). When you ask them any question out of the "normal" most are lost.

This site has 9 psi and 18 psi regulators.

http://www.flameengineering.com/Regulators.html

This site has just about "everything" propane tank, regulator, hose, connection related.

http://www.protanksupply.com/

Dale

[oftenred]

Thanks so much Dale for the sites with the regulators.

[PurpleCatJewels]

Since this is in the "Safety" area I just want to say one thing.

Because I work with propane for my glass, I'm hyper-sensitive to any time I even think I smell gas. A little "incident" from last week:

We work/live in an RV (Bus). We use propane for heat and have two 7.5 gallon LP tanks in an outside bay with a line plumbed in. The two tanks are both inline so that when one runs out the switch to the other is automatic.

Now I'm sure this has been gone over and over, but be ever-so-careful and very cautious about cross-threading those brass fittings! Last week tank #1 switched over to tank #2 which had been inadvertently cross-threaded either in a hurry or in the dark. It was after 2 a.m. and I was dead tired, should have gone to bed at 11 bur for some reason didn't.

When I finally went lights-out I thought I smelled propane. We have propane heaters and once-in-a-while it isn't unusual to smell it.

Now if I smell propane, I'm not sleeping til that smell is GONE. The smell got stronger so I turned off the heaters (luckily it was not freezing outside). The smell continued to get stronger. Propane is much heavier than air and our bed sits very, very high so smelling it from the pillow is cause for alarm.

I woke up the BigAl who then told me to check my torch hoses just-in-case. There was no smell from my torch hoses at all. Their tank has been shut off for weeks (since I ran out of oxygen).

He stumbled blearily outside (grumbling all the way) to check. He said that one of the fittings had been cross-threaded and that the propane was leaking from the tank outside, in through the holes in the floor, and filling our bus like a huge LP cylinder.

Luckily we have no pilot lights or spark sources. Once we found the leak and corrected it, the smell began to slowly dissipate and I finally went to sleep around 3:30 a.m. Had I gone to bed at 11 p.m. like I intended, the propane would have slowly displaced the oxygen in the room and I might not have woken up at all!

So even though the containers were outside…

Hey, you can't be too careful! Know your propane and set-up. And it's highly recommended that you call the fire dept./police if you smell any leaking gas (legal disclaimer)

[Kevin Bumble]

just finished hard lining my shop. the hard part, besides pipe fitting was finding a fitting that went from a standard thread to a propane reg, obviously i can back the propane tank fitting out of the reg and install a 1/4" nipple to it but i wanted to plug and play as you say, we also do events where we bring torches and i travel a lot so keeping my gear standard was a must, so after several years days hours etc on phones running around Portland i found that RV places carry exactly what i was looking for they go from standard thread to a reversed thread with a compression seal i plunged these a the end of my manifold a voila!! attach any propane reg an yer good to go if ya need advice on this feel free to call our shop Bridging Boro 503 282 2698.

[Dale M.]

Everything you ever wanted in the way of gas or oxygen plumbing...

These people manufacture it.... Most can be found by web search & part numbers...

http://www.westernenterprises.com/en...dcontents.html

Dale

[cinder]

I've just read this entire thread, and now that I'm at the end of it, I can't remember if my question has been answered and searching didn't help. So sorry ahead of time if it's all ready been covered.


I'm getting ready to call my County and see about the procedure and fees for getting propane hard-lined through the wall. I'd like to know as much as possible before I ask them, so my question is this...


When I tell them how much PSI I need, and specify that I will have shutoff valves inside and outside, what PSI do I really need in general?

[nevadaglass]

This is actually a very good topic - I recently contacted the local gas company to get a quote on having my "inside the studio 30Lb propane tank" plumbed through the wall of my studio.

The local college and most glass workers I know all use their tanks inside their studios but being safety conscious, I wanted it moved outside becasue all my friends kept saying you're going to blow up your studio and everything around it.

The gas rep came out. My original thought was to have the gas hooked in with the larger 120 lb propane tank that runs my green house and glass shop heaters but after the rep looked at the studio, he recommended replacing the 30 lb with a 100lb tank , strap it to the outside of the studio and then plumb it through the wall. Evidently most heaters to heat shops only use 1/2 pound psi and I wanted at least 12 pounds psi.

I also wanted my regulator placed on the inside so that I could control my gas flow. He said he would need to go back to the company and do some research on how to do that.

A few days later, I received a call back from the gas company and he stated that he had contacted the state of Nevada and having my 30 lb tank in the shop is perfectly legal, which is why the colleges all have their tanks in the shops.

He recommended leaving my setup the way it was since I wasn't violating any laws and the state said in the enviroment of a glass studio is safe to use. So as of today, I am using my existing setup but would love to hear how others got around plumbing through the wall with the regulator inside and how its working for you.

Before I call them back, I want to make sure I can tell them exactly how its done. I do think its pretty ironic that me a flameworker, has to tell the gas company how to set up a gas system that I can use for my studio)

Where I want to place the tank outside is like 3 feet from my bench just on the other side of the wall and would be strapped to the wall, so I am thinking, I need about 1 foot of pipe ( Just enough to get from tank fitting through the wall) , connect 1 end to the tank, the other end goes throught the wall, the regulator is attached on the other end, inside the shop, The hose comes right off the regulator to the torch. The trick is just getting all the right threads and fittings. The tank gets strapped to the wall of the building. In my mind - it wasnt rocket science but I was confused that it baffled the gas company so now I am not sure if there's more to it than what I thought.....


If nothing else, getting the tank out of the studio frees up about 2 sq feet of useable space LOL!

[Dale M.]

If your "shop" is a free standing build (not a residence) the rules are different than a "residence" that is probably why the "gas guy" said its ok to have tank inside....

A residence is defined where people "live" (eat and sleep)...

There is several good threads here on how to plumb in gas into studio...

Dale

[nevadaglass]

ah ok - that makes sense, Yes its a free standing 24 x 24 studio not attached to the house, which is around 25 feet away - Thank you Dale...I will see if I can find the threads