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Jelveh Designs - Glass Beads Torched One-by-One

Beads of Courage


 
  #31  
Old 2006-05-17, 1:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin L
And people said I was being mean when I said those units wouldnt last long...they're already discontinuing them
Justin, maybe you should hold off on the "I told you so" until there is some kind of official announcement.

I said that "it was my understanding" that the M20 was being pulled. Until the company puts out an offical statement or takes some kind of action, no one really knows what's going to happen. For all I know, they could have changed their minds about it.
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  #32  
Old 2006-05-18, 8:48am
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Originally Posted by kbinkster
Justin, maybe you should hold off on the "I told you so" until there is some kind of official announcement.

Has there ever been any real official announcements?
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  #33  
Old 2006-05-18, 11:59am
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Has there ever been any real official announcements?
You've got a good point, there.
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  #34  
Old 2006-05-18, 3:35pm
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I'm running 2 M-20's and am really really impressed. I took them up to Asheville and back without any issues. I noticed I had a flashback arrestor inline with it and removed it. It's even better now. I can get the bacon sizzle sound on the top end out of my Cheetah and it powers the Cuda perfectly. I sure hope they don't get rid of these units. I love mine. I'm sorry to tell you Justin (not really), but I think they are still gonna give you a run for your money.
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  #35  
Old 2006-05-18, 4:50pm
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All the sound means is that the pressure is there. You can get the pressure, but not necessarily the heat. If you aren't getting the heat, you're just blowing air.

The M10 that GTT tested produced more heat than the M20. This is because the purity from the M20 was not so good. The pressure was there, but the purity was lacking, and the resulting heat was not as great from the M20 as from the M10.



If a 10 lpm machine can run the 'cuda at 60% (reports from guys running that torch on an Integra10), then a 20 lpm machine should be more than enough to power the 'cuda all the way. Yet, Brent, you yourself said that you run the M20's around 15 lpm (to get good purity?) or so and that is why you had two to power the Barracuda. You aren't even getting the full 20 lpm/each out of your units as it is. Why would retiring the M20 and putting in an M15 be a bad thing, then, if it runs at the full 15 lpm? It would stand to reason that if 10 lpm runs the torch at 60%, something putting out 16.7 lpm would get the torch to it's full power, or close to it. And, 15 psi is right in the middle of the 10-20 psi Beth recommends for running that torch.

I believe that a 15 psi/15 lpm unit that puts out a true 15 psi/15 lpm at good purity would be great for a Barracuda. Of course, a single unit that truely put out 20 psi/20 lpm at good purity would have been better - as it should have been enough to fully power the 'cuda.

And, if the M15 costs less than an M20, it would be a good choice for lots of lampworkers.

We'll see what happens...
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  #36  
Old 2006-05-19, 2:47am
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Trust me, I'm getting the heat.

The M-20 is 20 PSI, not 20 LPM each. I think you've got your specs messed up. They never said it was a 20 LPM unit.
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  #37  
Old 2006-05-19, 3:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster
All the sound means is that the pressure is there. You can get the pressure, but not necessarily the heat. If you aren't getting the heat, you're just blowing air.

The M10 that GTT tested produced more heat than the M20. This is because the purity from the M20 was not so good. The pressure was there, but the purity was lacking, and the resulting heat was not as great from the M20 as from the M10.



If a 10 lpm machine can run the 'cuda at 60% (reports from guys running that torch on an Integra10), then a 20 lpm machine should be more than enough to power the 'cuda all the way. Yet, Brent, you yourself said that you run the M20's around 15 lpm (to get good purity?) or so and that is why you had two to power the Barracuda. You aren't even getting the full 20 lpm/each out of your units as it is. Why would retiring the M20 and putting in an M15 be a bad thing, then, if it runs at the full 15 lpm? It would stand to reason that if 10 lpm runs the torch at 60%, something putting out 16.7 lpm would get the torch to it's full power, or close to it. And, 15 psi is right in the middle of the 10-20 psi Beth recommends for running that torch.

I believe that a 15 psi/15 lpm unit that puts out a true 15 psi/15 lpm at good purity would be great for a Barracuda. Of course, a single unit that truely put out 20 psi/20 lpm at good purity would have been better - as it should have been enough to fully power the 'cuda.

And, if the M15 costs less than an M20, it would be a good choice for lots of lampworkers.

We'll see what happens...

Maybe this is where GTT's testing came up with such bad purity... if you were trying to pull 20 LPM out of the M-20, the purity would really suck. You can crank them up and maybe get 20 LPM of flow... but it's not what the machine is supposed to do. I've got mine set at 7.5-8 and the purity is still great. I got the M-20, so I could have the push / pressure. I got two, because I looked at the specs and knew I needed two. I am very good at thinking this sort of thing out before I invest my hard earned money into equipment. The Integra 10 is more money than 2 M-20's and still doesn't do what I need.
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  #38  
Old 2006-05-19, 5:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
You can crank them up and maybe get 20 LPM of flow... but it's not what the machine is supposed to do.
Your current machines are operating well over what they were designed to do...
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  #39  
Old 2006-05-19, 5:50am
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Yeah, I know Justin... but the mods are done by somebody that I trust. I've had a few conversations with Jack and Paul. They are really nice guys from what I can tell. They are doing something I need done to the concentrators. While they have stumbled here and there, due to lack of experience in the glass blowing field (they have tons in the medical sector), they are facing the problems head on. They are getting feedback from our industry and really trying to be an innovative partner. They are filling the gap that companies like yours are ignoring. As a boro worker, I really appreciate it. So far, my money has been wisely spent, trying to support these guys in their efforts. I commend them for taking so much resistence from a few individuals such as yourself. Constructive critisizm is one thing... What they have put up with has been anything but constructive. They have my respect and support for being a stand up company. I am a very happy customer so far. Now, I'm going to go warm up my kiln and fire up my M-20's. A full day of unlimited oxygen and a hot flame is waiting.
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  #40  
Old 2006-05-19, 5:59am
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have fun!
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  #41  
Old 2006-05-19, 7:49am
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Thanks man. I definitely had a blast. Got 4 nice pendants done and tried something new on every one of 'em. Strive to be innovative folks, it's more exciting!
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  #42  
Old 2006-05-19, 7:55am
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I ran Brent's Barracuda on the two M-20's for a while down in Asheville, and I must say I was impressed. I had no problem working colors that required a lot of oxygen. It got plenty hot as well.

I don't claim to know much about how concentrators are made, so I don't know anything about reliability or things like that, but they did run every bit as good as Brent said.

I'm in the process of acquiring some different brand torches here (already own three different brands), and want to try them on some different concentrators myself. We want to be able to sell concentrators when we get our studio open for business...
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  #43  
Old 2006-05-19, 8:29am
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Chad, I should have set it up on the Cheetah for you as well. It's equally impressive. It's a smaller torch, so there's even more power available. I have the Cheetah hooked up right now. I go back and forth, just trying new things with both torches. I haven't tried the Cuda since I got the flashback arrestor out of the line. I can't wait. Maybe later today or this Sunday. I'll let you know if it made a difference on that torch as well.
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  #44  
Old 2006-05-19, 8:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Maybe this is where GTT's testing came up with such bad purity... if you were trying to pull 20 LPM out of the M-20, the purity would really suck. You can crank them up and maybe get 20 LPM of flow... but it's not what the machine is supposed to do. I've got mine set at 7.5-8 and the purity is still great. I got the M-20, so I could have the push / pressure. I got two, because I looked at the specs and knew I needed two. I am very good at thinking this sort of thing out before I invest my hard earned money into equipment.
You’re right, I got my specs mixed up - I thought the machines could put out 20 lpm at 20 psi. I knew that they were originally one lpm and boosted to another. I just had “20 lpm” in my mind for some reason - ever since the Gathering.

I remember reading about the machine having the lpm boosted and there being some sort of decal that the company sent out to go over the flow meter marks. You know, so that the flow meter would "accurately" show what lpm the modified units were putting out. I found the thread where that was posted and reread that part.

It appears that the M20s were originally 5 lpm machines. They were boosted to put out 10 lpm. And the decals were 10 scale decals. So, now knowing that, I can see why you would need two M20s for your Barracuda. Makes sense. Sorry for the confusion.

Side note:
It’s weird about the decal, since I thought those flow meters were put in at the (original) factory. If a machine that once put out 5 lpm could now put out 10 lpm, once it hit 5 lpm, the flow meter would still go up to the original 5 lpm mark on the machine. But with a decal, 5 lpm would show up as 10 lpm. That would mean if you are reading 8 lpm on the decal, the flow meter itself is actually reading that the machine is putting out 4 lpm. That is strange. Maybe someone can explain to me how that works.

So, anyway, it turns out that the M20 runs at 10 lpm and the M10 runs at 5 lpm. I asked Wally this morning what he ran the M20 at during the limited testing he did recently, and he said he had the ball right under the 10 lpm mark, that he knew not to push the unit over that mark. It was my understanding that if a 10 lpm concentrator is in good working order, it will put out the same purity at 10 lpm as it would at lower settings like 8 lpm - and a drop in purity, if there is one, would not be significant enough to affect the flame. If a unit runs so much worse at 10 lpm than 8 lpm, so much so that no one should run them at 10 lpm, then maybe they should be called 8 lpm units. Just a thought.

What I've mentioned are just preliminary findings. Wally is going to run some more tests in the coming weeks. I'll tell him that you said you are getting great purity at 7.5-8 lpm. I'll keep everyone posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
The Integra 10 is more money than 2 M-20's and still doesn't do what I need.
Like I mentioned earlier, the Integra10 operates the Barracuda at only 60%. I would not suggest it as a stand-alone unit for your application. But, for someone making soft glass beads (and possibly small boro), it is a good, reliable choice for that torch. It was designed to put out 10 lpm at 9 psi, and that's what it does. I do not have any interest in Sequal (manufacturer) or Suncoast Beads (retailer). I do not sell these units. So, I have no reason to push this machine and prop it up to be more than it is. I am just an owner who is pleased with its performance.
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Last edited by kbinkster; 2006-05-19 at 9:09am. Reason: spelled "then" "them"
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  #45  
Old 2006-05-19, 9:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster
Side note:
It’s weird about the decal, since I thought those flow meters were put in at the (original) factory. If a machine that once put out 5 lpm could now put out 10 lpm, once it hit 5 lpm, the flow meter would still go up to the original 5 lpm mark on the machine. But with a decal, 5 lpm would show up as 10 lpm. That would mean if you are reading 8 lpm on the decal, the flow meter itself is actually reading that the machine is putting out 4 lpm. That is strange. Maybe someone can explain to me how that works.
They replace the light plastic ball with a heavier metal ball of the correct weight for the new reading. If you increase the weight of the ball, you change the amount of flow it takes to float the ball. I had the same question and asked.
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  #46  
Old 2006-05-19, 9:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
They replace the light plastic ball with a heavier metal ball of the correct weight for the new reading. If you increase the weight of the ball, you change the amount of flow it takes to float the ball. I had the same question and asked.
Aaaahhh, that makes sense.
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  #47  
Old 2006-05-19, 4:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
They replace the light plastic ball with a heavier metal ball of the correct weight for the new reading. If you increase the weight of the ball, you change the amount of flow it takes to float the ball. I had the same question and asked.
Oh really? Hmm. Ive never seen a plstic ball in a flow meter. Every single one I have ever seen was metal.

I'll have to test this sometime this weekend.
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  #48  
Old 2006-05-19, 4:59pm
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Have fun.
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  #49  
Old 2006-05-20, 2:39pm
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First off, the Flowmeter ball in the Milennium from the factory is Metal, not plastic. I used a magnet to find this.

I did the test with different flowmeter balls. Although I didnt have a scale to weigh each flowmeter ball, you can tell there are slight differences.

Theoretically they would need a flowmeter ball that is twice as heavy to accurately read twice the LPM, right?

Anyway, with the different flowmeter balls of different weights, I noticed no difference in the meter. I checked the flowmeter on the Millenium and directly compared it to an auxillary meter. Its possible that they didnt weigh enough.

Interesting. Must be a metal BB or something in the M10/M20/M30. :shrug:
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  #50  
Old 2006-05-21, 3:20am
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Yeah, maybe it's slightly smaller as well. I haven't gone into any testing... there are a few variations that could change how it reads. Buy one and test it out man. Then you'll know for sure.
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  #51  
Old 2006-05-21, 5:19am
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How do you test for purity or flow or whatever it is?

thanks -

Martha <<--trying to understand
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  #52  
Old 2006-05-21, 6:14am
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Martha, you need the guages. A medical supply place that rents medical units may let you bring it in and run it through the paces so you don't have to buy them. Just talk sweet.
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  #53  
Old 2006-05-21, 6:21am
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or flip the guy $10 for lunch lol
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  #54  
Old 2006-05-21, 3:23pm
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Quote:
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And people said I was being mean when I said those units wouldnt last long...they're already discontinuing them
SORRY TO DISAPPOINT YOU BOY WONDER, BUT THE M20 HAS NOT AND WILL NOT BE DISCONTINUED. WE HAVE SIMPLY ADDED IT TO OUR PSYCLONE LINE. IT WILL NOW COME IN A STEEL BOX LIKE THE PSYCLONE. ALSO, ALL OUR PRODUCTS HAVE BEEN GIVEN A PART NUMBER. THE 2010 IS THE M20. 20PSI AT 10 LITRES PER MINUTE. THE M10 IS 1005 FOR 10 PSI AND 5 LITERS PER MINUTE. WE ARE ADDING A 0705 WHICH IS A STOCK UNIT NO MODIFICATIONS, A 1510 WHICH IS A 15 PSI 10 LITERS PER MINUTE, A 2015 WHICH IS A 20 PSI 15 LPM UNIT AS WELL AS THE OTHER PSYCLONE MACHINES. tHE PSYCLONE II IS STILL AVAILABLE BY SPECIAL REQUEST ONLY. WE STILL STAND BEHIND OUR MACHINE COMPLETELY. iF ANYONE IS HAVING PROBLEMS I URGE THEM TO CONTACT US. JACK
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Old 2006-05-21, 5:03pm
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Sorry about the CAPS. My lock was stuck. OOOPS
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  #56  
Old 2006-05-21, 5:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin L
or flip the guy $10 for lunch lol

Justin, Does your company recondition OG-15?
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  #57  
Old 2006-05-22, 4:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Martha, you need the guages. A medical supply place that rents medical units may let you bring it in and run it through the paces so you don't have to buy them. Just talk sweet.
:::snort::::

yeah right ...



Martha
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  #58  
Old 2006-05-22, 5:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin L
Oh really? Hmm. Ive never seen a plstic ball in a flow meter. Every single one I have ever seen was metal.

I'll have to test this sometime this weekend.
Almost all 5 lpm units have plastic or some sort of non-metal flow ball. Even the Devilbiss, Invacare, PB 590 and the Millennium. By taking out the plastic ball and replaceing it with the metal, we are able to achieve 10 lpm and still keep the ball in the range. We use a lab rated flow meter on all the units that we modify to insure that they putting out what ever flow level is set. If you really did a check you would find that this is true. Please get your facts straight before posting them. You are only confusing people in your effort to discredit my company. Also anyone out there can do the test themselves. Just take a strong magnet, place it against the flow meter and move it up and down. If the ball is steel it will follow the magnet, if not it wont.
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  #59  
Old 2006-05-22, 5:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
They replace the light plastic ball with a heavier metal ball of the correct weight for the new reading. If you increase the weight of the ball, you change the amount of flow it takes to float the ball. I had the same question and asked.
You are absolutely right Brent. The flow valve tube is also called a gratuated tube. It gets bigger in diameter as it goes to the top. So it takes more air to float the ball as more air is allowed to pass around it. When in doubt, check it out. Get a flow meter and check it. jack
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  #60  
Old 2006-05-23, 3:25pm
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I just wanted to take a minute to toot Jack's horn again. I did it in another thread, but I have found all these related concentrator threads engrossing to read. I am very very please with the service provided by Unlimited Oxygen, specifically Jack. I called, and he came through. Thanks Jack. If I can get these darn papers graded, I might get out on the torch.

Joyce
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