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  #31  
Old 2009-07-12, 5:37am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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The only reason I mention the RIX is because it is closer to working "out of the box" than having to "kludge" together a system such as mangling the "home fill" units.... Do not misunderstand, I am a great on one for making "something work", but that route is not always the best way for people to go..... Some people are not aware of the dangers of high pressure gasses and plumbing and could get into trouble very easily and cause themselves injury or death and I don't think I want to hear that somebody got hurt of killed trying to make something without having proper knowledge of processes and dangers that are involved....

And Yes I agree there needs a to be a roll it in, remove the crate, connect the tank, and turn it on system for high pressure oxygen....But system needs to be well documented and all bases covered before it goes "public".... The problems with buying a system as oldschooltofu did and having the problems he has had with the "evidentially a rush to market" by seller is just not acceptable in my book.....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2009-07-12 at 9:29am.
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  #32  
Old 2009-07-12, 8:50am
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Trey Cornette Trey Cornette is offline
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I have built a system that utilizes 2 M-20 concentrators, a laboratory vacuum compressor and a 29 gallon holding tank. I compress the o2 up to 100psi. The system shuts off at 100 psi and turns on at 80 psi. This system lets me run a Phantom or a Barracuda at 100% for well over 2 hours at full blast!. Thatís plenty of time to complete most projects. On a full day of work I have never run out of O2 as I rarely utilized 100% output for extended periods. Usually a project is broken up into periods of variable amounts of O2 use so when I am doing detail work with a small flame the system is building back up to 100% and shutting off.

Why deal with going to Tank pressures of 2000psi + when 100psi will do.
I have purposely not published how to build this system due to liability issues and the dangers of mixing high pressure O2 and oil.
For those interested a large glass tool and supply company is currently working with this design to test the feasibility of creating it for the market. If all hold true to projections I would expect to see them on the market within a year.

I have been running this unit since January and it seems to be holding up well. I canít wait to score a Mirage and see how it performs with it.
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  #33  
Old 2009-07-12, 11:59am
metalbone metalbone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
I have built a system that utilizes 2 M-20 concentrators, a laboratory vacuum compressor and a 29 gallon holding tank. I compress the o2 up to 100psi. The system shuts off at 100 psi and turns on at 80 psi. This system lets me run a Phantom or a Barracuda at 100% for well over 2 hours at full blast!. Thatís plenty of time to complete most projects. On a full day of work I have never run out of O2 as I rarely utilized 100% output for extended periods. Usually a project is broken up into periods of variable amounts of O2 use so when I am doing detail work with a small flame the system is building back up to 100% and shutting off.

Why deal with going to Tank pressures of 2000psi + when 100psi will do.
I have purposely not published how to build this system due to liability issues and the dangers of mixing high pressure O2 and oil.
For those interested a large glass tool and supply company is currently working with this design to test the feasibility of creating it for the market. If all hold true to projections I would expect to see them on the market within a year.

I have been running this unit since January and it seems to be holding up well. I canít wait to score a Mirage and see how it performs with it.
Sounds good. I've been toying with a system (in my mind) similar to your 80-100 psi system with either a 30 or 60 gallon holding tank. At some point, I may put it together and post info and parts list on it just for the heck of it.

Personally, I'd rather listen to music than noise, so I don't mind filling a couple of K tanks during the off hour. If I don't have to have compressor noise while working, I will go that route, even if it means tank filling during the off hour (I stay in the approximate range of 400-1100 psi). But, I agree, lower PSI is safer than higher.

BTW, what is your holding tank's charge-up time to 100 psi?

Also, we are looking forward to hearing how the mirage performs on your system...perhaps it may need an upgrade to a 60 gallon holding tank to be optimized?

Dale, a system based on the Rix is also a kludge system. With a Rix, you still have to get all sorts of fittings, hoses, and the like. It's just that someone else does the kludging. With a Homefilll conversion, it's the same, except you do one more kludge and modify the output to take a high pressure hose. I have an industrial hose house fabricate that part for me. All other partws are rated of 3000 psi or higher.

Any off-the-shelf tank-fill system is essentially a refined kludge so to speak...someone put something together, worked out bugs, tweaked this and that, and then felt like they had the risk manageable. Then off to market is was (or in the case of the system this major glass mfgr...off to market within a year).

But I agree, for an off-the-shelf tank fill system to come without any assemby or operational documentation, and no warning information is wrong...sometimes people are too rushed to make a buck to do it right, imo.
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  #34  
Old 2009-07-12, 1:04pm
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Trey Cornette Trey Cornette is offline
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The system is really not so loud. I demoed it at an event in Asheville a few months back. I was able to do a full demo of one of my pieces with 15 onlookers and everyone could hear me. In the studio I have it in a separate room. Given the option that's where I would keep any equipment with sound issues.
Right now it is taking about 25 minutes to fill the tank from empty. I rarely do that as the tank is always left full. I just shut it off at the regulator at the end of each session.
There are a couple of ways to upgrade the system to fit the users needs. A bigger holding tank will increase storage. You can add more O2 flow which may create a need to go up in size with the compressor. Say if I had 2 Hurricaines I would want a compressor that will handle that volume of air flow.
The compressor I am using is the least powerful in is line and there are several models that will handle a lot more air flow.
I am super impressed with how it is working.
It has really changed how I think about O2.
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  #35  
Old 2009-07-14, 7:05am
metalbone metalbone is offline
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Excellent, thanks for the great info and opinion of a O2 booster system...the good thing about such a system is that is would be relatively inexpensive and could utilize existing oxycons that many folks here already own. And if it is quiet, all the better.

Last edited by metalbone; 2009-07-15 at 11:55pm.
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  #36  
Old 2009-07-15, 2:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
I have built a system that utilizes 2 M-20 concentrators, a laboratory vacuum compressor and a 29 gallon holding tank. I compress the o2 up to 100psi. The system shuts off at 100 psi and turns on at 80 psi. This system lets me run a Phantom or a Barracuda at 100% for well over 2 hours at full blast!. Thatís plenty of time to complete most projects. On a full day of work I have never run out of O2 as I rarely utilized 100% output for extended periods. Usually a project is broken up into periods of variable amounts of O2 use so when I am doing detail work with a small flame the system is building back up to 100% and shutting off.

Why deal with going to Tank pressures of 2000psi + when 100psi will do.
I have purposely not published how to build this system due to liability issues and the dangers of mixing high pressure O2 and oil.
For those interested a large glass tool and supply company is currently working with this design to test the feasibility of creating it for the market. If all hold true to projections I would expect to see them on the market within a year.

I have been running this unit since January and it seems to be holding up well. I canít wait to score a Mirage and see how it performs with it.
I agree with Trey, Why deal with the dangerous 2000+ psi from a system that is questionable at best, when all you need is 100 to 140 psi to run anything in the torch world. With a concentrator that was designed to run 24/7 right from the get go. The Home fill system was designed to fill small tanks like E cylinders and Ds. Noone knows if these things are safe for K tanks. Then you have that ugly fact that if something does go wrong, Who will rebuild it? You can buy the Homefill units all day from HomeHealth Care Companies for 700.00 to 1200.00. Take out the quick connect, go the Lowes for some brass and poof you have a 4000.00 machine. Rix may be more expensive but, they have 60 years of experience not just a few months. A lot of thought and testing went into the unit that Trey is using. And it will run forever. No need to lay awake at night wondering which part of your house will disappear off the map if something goes wrong. Good luck with it Trey
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  #37  
Old 2009-07-15, 7:51pm
Lynn Burgess Lynn Burgess is offline
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Jack, could you possibly tell us more about the new system you have in the works? Like when will it be for sale and approx. how much will it be. I have a Mirage I am dying to hook up.

Lynn
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  #38  
Old 2009-07-15, 11:45pm
metalbone metalbone is offline
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QUOTE from Oxydoc: "I agree with Trey, Why deal with the dangerous 2000+ psi from a system that is questionable at best, when all you need is 100 to 140 psi to run anything in the torch world. With a concentrator that was designed to run 24/7 right from the get go. The Home fill system was designed to fill small tanks like E cylinders and Ds. Noone knows if these things are safe for K tanks. Then you have that ugly fact that if something does go wrong, Who will rebuild it? You can buy the Homefill units all day from HomeHealth Care Companies for 700.00 to 1200.00. Take out the quick connect, go the Lowes for some brass and poof you have a 4000.00 machine. Rix may be more expensive but, they have 60 years of experience not just a few months. A lot of thought and testing went into the unit that Trey is using. And it will run forever. No need to lay awake at night wondering which part of your house will disappear off the map if something goes wrong. Good luck with it Trey"

Like I said earlier, I think Trey's system is great.

But your posts raises a lot of questions in my mind...

Everyone that runs a K tank deals with 2000 psi, so if done correctly, 2000 psi is safe. Personally, I don't care if Rix has 60 years of experience, Ro's microboost went out after less than 150 fills. At at $5k a pop for the microboost, her experience with the Rix for filling K tanks weighs more than their number of year in business. For that price, I can get over 10 Homefills, each with a rated lifecycle of 5000 hours, making it not a big deal if one breaks because I can pitch it and use another, and still be far ahead in terms of cost savings, and number of fills. You may want to check out smutboys post on gldg, he is of the opinion that the design of the Homefill is more efficient than that of the Rix.

In anycase, I am keeping records of the number of fills I get and will periodically post this in the gldg thread that documents the 2 compressor $2200 system. Maybe it will turn out to be a long lasting system, and maybe it won't...but I will be basing it on real data, not opinion, and definitely not out of fear that my part of my house will dissapear off the map (where the heck did this come from??).

After undertanding how Trey's system is working and having an idea of how much these types of compressors cost and the plumbng costs involved, I think it is a great idea, has a lot of utility, and should be very very cost effective. Hopefully it gets released soon.

So I've seen numerous posts indicating that its in the works and I see all these questions asking when it will be released.

I, like others, would like to know what's the ETA? What is the range of costs? And what company will be selling it?? Inquiring minds want to know...

BTW, when you say take a $700-1200 Homefill, add a quick connect and brass, and you have a $4000 machine, do you mean that the $4000 tank fill systems (24-36 hour fill times for a K tank) being sold by some resellers and oxygen companies, are really just worth 700-1200 dollars plus the cost of the connections? Personally, I've already come to a similar conclusion. But its nice for it to publically come from someone that knows the oxygen business.

Also, when is the Wonka system that will fill a K tank (presumably to 2000+ psi) in less than 8 hours and that will be more affordable than any other system going to come out? And how much will that cost?

And when you say "Why deal with the dangerous 2000+ psi from a system that is questionable at best, when all you need is 100 to 140 psi to run anything in the torch world", are you saying that when the major glass manufacturer starts selling the 100 PSI sytem like Trey's, that there will then be no valid reason to purchase the Wonka System because its better to deal with 100 PSI rather than 2000 PSI?

Anyway, it's late...

Last edited by metalbone; 2009-07-16 at 12:30am.
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  #39  
Old 2009-07-16, 3:57pm
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Im not saying that it dont work, Oldschool proves that it does. Im saying that it is not worth the price, and the risk. If you trust everyone to chain the K tanks to the wall, hook everything up correctly, keep an eve on pressures, and trust the builder, then you have a system that works for some. Im saying, why worry with filling tanks at all when there are systems that do not require the high psi. The 1st wonka system was going to be a high pressure filling system until Tom and I agreed that the risks was not worth the effort. So, we based our system on a similar system to Trey's. We have a system that runs off of a Hurricane and pumps the pressure up to 140 psi. Endless, UNLIMITED OXYGEN. No need for overnight filling. The system that Tom Doner and I are working on will not run out of 02 while you are working. And hopefully will be considerable less money than the High pressure filling systems. I simply dont believe that enough time and thought has gone in to this system. It would be ok if the price was a little easier to swallow. But at 4000.00, you are still taking a chance on the operation of a system that has not been proven. It is not bashing my competion, it is not that I want to sell more, it is that I see the real advantages of the system like Trey is presenting. The Wonka system will be very similar to his. And by the way, I do have documented stories of people blowing up homes and vehicals and themselves by not taking the necessary precautions when dealing with high pressure o2.
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  #40  
Old 2009-07-16, 4:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Burgess View Post
Jack, could you possibly tell us more about the new system you have in the works? Like when will it be for sale and approx. how much will it be. I have a Mirage I am dying to hook up.

Lynn
I have to back with Tom soon. I have all the working components, but there is an issue with a pressure switch that we need to work on. The system will be ran by a Hurricane and pumped up to 140 psi with unlimited oxygen. We hope to have it done soon. Maybe by end of next month.
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  #41  
Old 2009-07-16, 4:34pm
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Rock!
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  #42  
Old 2009-07-16, 4:41pm
metalbone metalbone is offline
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Im not saying that it dont work, Oldschool proves that it does. Im saying that it is not worth the price, and the risk. If you trust everyone to chain the K tanks to the wall, hook everything up correctly, keep an eve on pressures, and trust the builder, then you have a system that works for some. Im saying, why worry with filling tanks at all when there are systems that do not require the high psi. The 1st wonka system was going to be a high pressure filling system until Tom and I agreed that the risks was not worth the effort. So, we based our system on a similar system to Trey's. We have a system that runs off of a Hurricane and pumps the pressure up to 140 psi. Endless, UNLIMITED OXYGEN. No need for overnight filling. The system that Tom Doner and I are working on will not run out of 02 while you are working. And hopefully will be considerable less money than the High pressure filling systems. I simply dont believe that enough time and thought has gone in to this system. It would be ok if the price was a little easier to swallow. But at 4000.00, you are still taking a chance on the operation of a system that has not been proven. It is not bashing my competion, it is not that I want to sell more, it is that I see the real advantages of the system like Trey is presenting. The Wonka system will be very similar to his. And by the way, I do have documented stories of people blowing up homes and vehicals and themselves by not taking the necessary precautions when dealing with high pressure o2.
gotcha. I know what I am doing and have spec'd precautions at the appropriate places.

And no way am I paying 4k for a painted homefill form the other guy. My two compressor, two K tank, two oxycon system with all the valving, tubing, all inclusive, cost about $2200. Its a bit steep but much cheaper than a $4k single unit, and most importantly, I am having fun solving oxy problems.

I'll be putting together a system like treys soon, maybe in the next month or three if time permits (all I need is the holding tank and switch, and some doodads) and I will then post all the info.
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  #43  
Old 2009-07-16, 5:00pm
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The only reason tanks are filled to 2200+ psi is space. This is so a small vessel can hold a large volume of oxygen - something to consider when you need to transport the vessel around, which is not usually a requirement for most studios. If you can have a larger storage tank, then you don't need to compress the oxygen as much.

Torches generally do not require very high pressures to run them. When you set high pressures on a tank regulator, all that is doing is keeping the regulator open enough to pass the volume needed for the torch. You need a certain amount of push to get the oxygen to all the jets and push through the restrictions along the way, but that threshold is not very high. You can run a Mirage, for instance, to about 95% of full capacity with the line pressure reading 13-14 psi, provided you have enough flow.

Trey's system and Jack's/Tom's system and some of the other systems coming to market soon would be a lot safer, in my opinion, than a system that takes the pressure up to anything over about 300 psi. That's the magic number where dangerous things can happen unexpectedly.

I might even suggest to Ryan that if he could use his set-up with a larger holding tank and fill it to a lower psi, instead of using the K tanks - that would be safer than what he is set up to do now.

Oh, and no matter what... the oxygen that you get out of these tank fill set-ups is only going to be as pure as the concentrator that feeds them can put out. If you have to lower the LPM on your machine to get better purity, it might take longer to fill the tank, but you will get more heat.
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  #44  
Old 2009-07-16, 5:00pm
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Very COOL, I will be looking forward to hearing from you. Your system does sound interesting.
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  #45  
Old 2009-07-17, 4:51pm
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Trey Cornette Trey Cornette is offline
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Hey,
Just so everyone knows. This is not "My System".
There is nothing new about the idea. There have been several people who have built their own before me. I was given the info to build it buy a well respected tool maker and built one. It worked so well that I passed this info along to a couple of people I thought could run with it. All I want is for this system to make it to production with a manufacturer who will do the necessary research to make it safe, provide good customer service, and stand behind a quality product.
It looks like there will be a choice of companies to purchase this product from and that works even better for me. Competition has always resulted in the consumer getting a better product at a cheaper price.
What Kim says about purity is right on the mark. There is a difference between this quality O2 and tanked. I am guessing my O2 is about 93% and works fine most of the time. On a few of the silver based colors I really have to push it to keep the colors from reducing before I am ready.
Other than that I am really happy with how the system works. I can do everything I do without running out of O2. That includes my explorations into Goblets and up to 2 inch marbles in Boro and soft glass on a Phantom or Barracuda. I see no problems running larger torches. It may require a more powerful compressor and a larger holding tank but I am sure it can be done.

Peace,

Trey
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