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  #1  
Old 2006-03-03, 8:15am
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Default liquid O2

How do you hook it up? Do you use the same regulator that is used on a regular O2 tank. What pressure do you set it at? Do you open the valve all the way like you do on regular tanked O2? Does it last longer? Does it make the flame hotter? What other questions didn't I ask? Am I annoying you yet with these questions? What is the answer to life? (Oh wait, I know that one...42)
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  #2  
Old 2006-03-03, 8:54am
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Unless you are using 8-10 "K" sized tanks per week every week, it isn't worth the time and expense, not to mention that liquid oxygen dewars have to be delivered by the oxygen company and they usually do not deliver to residential addresses.

You use the same regulator as with gaseous oxygen. You set your regulator exactly the same.

An average liquid dewar will last about 4 weeks, even if you don't use it - the tanks will vent oxygen once they reach the vent pressure internally - it is very definately use it or lose it.

42 (snicker)...
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  #3  
Old 2006-03-03, 12:04pm
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ok, thanks
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Old 2006-03-03, 11:50pm
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I disagree totally ,....

I pay 65 dollars for my liquid tanks.... plus 10 dollars for delivery ( to a residential address )

For this price I could care less if i lose 1/3 of my oxy... I don't have to haul tanks..... no lost time there.... or bad back from hauling K tanks.... no wear and tear on the vehicle....

It will vent.... if you dont use it... but there are certain kinds of dewars you can adjust the pressure with so it doesnt build as fast,,,,,


well worth looking into......

I would be happy to answer anymore questions....

Jay
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Old 2006-03-04, 5:22am
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Hi Julie, the cost and ability to deliver to residences and the cost to deliver the dewars around the US varies so much that you might just ask your own oxy place what the cost would be. The tanks do vent, and if they are adjusted wrong (like they were in a class I was in) they can build an iceberg on top of the tank. Liquid oxy itself is much more dangerous than compressed oxy. However, all things taken into consideration, if you are using one of the larger torches on a daily basis, then I would think it might be a good thing.
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Old 2006-03-04, 6:07am
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Sorry! What is a "dewar"?

JanMD
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  #7  
Old 2006-03-04, 7:08am
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I recently checked into it because I just found out it's available. The welding shop guys said one tank was the equivalent of 21 255cf tanks of compressed O2. A refill would cost me $95, and a refill of a 255cf tank costs $24. The monthly tank rental is $40 and I'm sure there's a delivery charge. Just the same, I'd be way ahead financially, even if I lost half of it. They also said it would vent about 1% a day, so in a month, if not used, I would lose 30%. They said it wasn't any more dangerous than compressed O2 (which doesn't mean not dangerous, just not any more dangerous!) For one, they'd be delivering the tank since it weighs hundreds of pounds. This means I wouldn't be lugging it around and the tanks wouldn't spend any time in my car (in case I'm in an accident, which could be disastrous with a tank of O2 in the back.) Also, it would stay outside. When I had tanks, I had them secured against a wall, but inside. To get it set up, however, I need to get plumbing through the wall so I can hook it up on the outside. This is really the safest way to run and something I plan on doing soon. Meanwhile, my 2 concentrators are doing a pretty good job for the size beads I'm making.

Yeah, what is a dewar? The tank?
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Old 2006-03-04, 7:56am
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Tanya,
Yes a Dewar is a tank..... Do some research with a few places...you can get a lower price.... 95 isnt a bad price... but they always quote high, and will usually go lower ..... I belive there is roughly 4800cf of Of oxy in a liquid dewar.....

I used to get my K tanks for 8 dollars.... shop around..... mention the price I quoted..... maybe even tell them that is what you are paying now, and ask if they will match that price.... my guess is they will !!!!! Try Eastern Airgas .....( i think thats what they are called now ) ....good luck !!!!
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Old 2006-03-04, 8:08am
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A dewar is the name they call the tank for liquid oxy.

This is copied from a website, but I have a pamphlet with basically the same info:

"The hazards associated with liquid oxygen are exposure to cold temperatures that can cause severe burns; over-pressurization due to expansion of small amounts of liquid into large volumes of gas in inadequately vented equipment; oxygen enrichment of the surrounding atmosphere; and the possibility of a combustion reaction if the oxygen is permitted to contact a non-compatible material. The low temperature of liquid oxygen and the vapors it releases not only pose a serious burn hazard to human tissue, but can also cause many materials of construction to lose their strength and become brittle enough to shatter. The large expansion ratio of liquid-to-gas can rapidly build pressure in systems where liquid can be trapped. This necessitates that these areas be identified and protected with pressure relief. This expansion ratio also allows atmospheres of oxygen-enriched air to form in the area surrounding a release. It is important to note that fire chemistry starts to change when the concentration of oxygen increases to as little as 23%. Materials easily ignited in air not only become more susceptible to ignition, but also burn with added violence in the presence of oxygen. These materials include clothing and hair, which have air spaces that readily trap the oxygen. Oxygen levels of 23% can be reached very quickly and all personnel must be aware of the hazard. Any clothing that has been splashed or soaked with liquid oxygen or exposed to high oxygen concentrations should be removed immediately and aired for at least an hour. Personnel should stay in a well-ventilated area and avoid any source of ignition until their clothing is completely free of any excess oxygen. Clothing saturated with oxygen is readily ignitable and will burn vigorously. Do not permit smoking or open flames in any areas where liquid oxygen is stored or handled. Do not permit liquid oxygen or oxygen-enriched air to come in contact with organic materials or flammable or combustible substances of any kind. Some of the organic materials that can react violently with oxygen when ignited by a spark or even a mechanical shock are oil, grease, asphalt, kerosene, cloth, tar, and dirt that may contain oil or grease. If liquid oxygen spills on asphalt or other surfaces contaminated with combustibles, do not walk on or roll equipment over the area of the spill. Keep sources of ignition away for 30 minutes after all frost or fog has disappeared."

Basically my oxy guys told me that the dangers of liquid oxy are many times that of compressed oxy and probably not worth the risk in a residential setting. In the past fire marshalls in areas of the Gathering have not allowed liquid oxy because of the additional hazards involved. That's all I know about it, from what I have been told. My one intimate experience with liquid oxy was when TA'ing for Suellen Fowler and we went through one large dewar in one day. This was the time a large chunk of ice formed on top of the dewar and I'm sure now of the reason. If you draw more gaseous oxy out of the tank than it is making, you can actually draw off the liquid and it can damage equipment. It didn't get to the point of damaging our torches, but I am sure we were drawing off more than we should have and thus ice formed on the top and around the regulator and resulted in our going through the whole tank on the first day of class.
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  #10  
Old 2006-03-04, 12:04pm
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Thanks for the info J and Pam. J - my welding store guys already know me too well! Pam - yes, liquid gases can be very dangerous from a burn point of view. Also combustion. I heard a story (I think it was from my DH) about a liquid oxy spill on a roadway and later on the road ignited. However, the hazards I personally would be exposed to, given I'd have the tank delivered and outside, should be minimal (the hazards for me from compressed O2 being higher since I'm transporting and connecting it.) I wonder if O2 can build up near a wall outside? I would think it would dissipate pretty quickly, but I'm not positive. If it was located nearby a heat pump compressor, perhaps this could be hazardous. In any case, I'm not ready to go back to compressed O2 or start using liquid just now...probably won't be for a while.

Thanks again for the information!
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Old 2006-03-04, 1:34pm
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Yes... I get the Ice on top of My dewar ...almost every day.... In our shop we regularly run 3 Beth pm2d at a time ....no problems..... I believe the draw 66 chf wide open ...it will ice a little.... nothing to worry about .....However .....If the Ice were to move as far as the regulator it could freeze the regulator, and possibly ruin your diaphragm.... however I have never seen this happen .... even running 4 torches at a time.....

When running multiple torches ...I feel it is important to keep an eye on your pressure gauge , and use the pressure builder if needed...... however lots of dewars are in really bad shape... sometimes the pressure builder doesn't work properly..... which will effect the life of your tank...... My o2 supplier always credits me when I call and let them know I got a " bad tank"

There is a pressure release valve on top..... and when it vents...It will SCREAM .. very loudly... ....emmiting very cold gas..... I have seen the valve freeze open ....many times.... and the Oxy just keeps venting...... pouring warm water over your release valve will stop this...... it can be quite frightining the first time you see it happen .... !!!
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  #12  
Old 2006-03-04, 5:06pm
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The one question I have is this...

I know they vent. I know they can be loud. But, can you vent tanks yourself? The reason I'm asking is that where I live I have neighbors very close and I don't want a loud vent happening at 3 am. If I go out during the day and vent it, would that draw off enough pressure to eliminate or greatly reduce the chance of it venting again soon?
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  #13  
Old 2006-03-04, 5:09pm
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Take tank to MIDAS and have a muffler put on it....

Dale
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Old 2006-03-04, 5:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
Take tank to MIDAS and have a muffler put on it....

Dale
...or just weld one on yourself...NOT
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  #15  
Old 2006-03-04, 6:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo
The one question I have is this...

I know they vent. I know they can be loud. But, can you vent tanks yourself? The reason I'm asking is that where I live I have neighbors very close and I don't want a loud vent happening at 3 am. If I go out during the day and vent it, would that draw off enough pressure to eliminate or greatly reduce the chance of it venting again soon?
Chad - I remember this coming up very recently in another thread. Just can't remember which thread. Anyway, someone told me you can vent them yourself to prevent bomb sounds in the middle of the night.
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Old 2006-03-04, 9:18pm
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food for thought. I have an appt.with a salesmanon tuesday to find out more information.
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Old 2006-03-04, 9:42pm
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Something to read before seeing sales person on Tuesday...

http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/s...tml#containers

http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/services/oxygen.html

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthr...ighlight=dewar


Although I don't think much about their cavalier remarks about screwing with some regulator settings, there is nourishment for the inquisitive mind...

Dale
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  #18  
Old 2006-03-06, 6:45am
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Yes, you can vent them yourself!
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  #19  
Old 2006-03-06, 6:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
Yes, you can vent them yourself!
So that will keep them from venting on their own?
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Old 2006-03-06, 8:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
Something to read before seeing sales person on Tuesday...

http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/s...tml#containers

http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/services/oxygen.html

http://www.thegldg.com/forum/showthr...ighlight=dewar


Although I don't think much about their cavalier remarks about screwing with some regulator settings, there is nourishment for the inquisitive mind...

Dale

Dale - thanks for the great information. Now, maybe I'll even get time to read it...

Chad - I think the liquid O2 discussion I remember must have been in the monstrous "Boro - why do you use it" thread. I checked through about ten pages before I got incredibly bored and went to do something else.

I'm off to check out getting a tank of O2 to "supplement" (that is, replace) my concentrators when working those touchy boro colors....
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Old 2006-03-06, 9:00am
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Ahh... I remember seeing it somewhere, but when I searched I came up with dozens of threads. Thanks...
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Old 2006-03-06, 2:56pm
Tanya Tanya is offline
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Found it!

Boro feedback... why do you use it or not use it??? Page 14:

2006-02-23, 6:01pm
e. mort

I talked to a couple of flameworkers who use liquid oxy as well as a couple different welding supply outfits. They say, that you can control when it vents and how loud if you just keep an eye of the guage and vent it when you want it to. That way it isn't as loud, and you can do it in middle of the day when all the neighbors are at work. Supposedly once you do it, it is usually good for about 24 hours in hot weather. Anybody out there on LOX want to confirm or deny this?

Thanks.

Eric
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Old 2006-03-06, 3:40pm
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Yesi've done it, I would say that is an accurate statement... as long as you keep an eye on your gauge .. ( and assuming its working properly ) .... this may mean checking it daily.... some tanks build pressure like crazy...... some don;t wana build pressure at all ...

A full tank can vent from wheeling it around ....... make sure you are aware of where the pressure release valve is when you are moving it .... you can usually hear it building up....so there is a warning..... make sure your release valve isnt pointed at your face.....

When these thing blow off ... It sends a HUGE blast of cold air....at a constant stream.... I have had it knock things over !!!

Also there are HIGH PRESSURE and LOW PRESSURE dewars.... i find the Lower pressure ones may be better for users who don;t work as much . or work every few days...

There is one kind of Dewar that has 2 pressure controlls....I always request this kind ....but don;t always get them... It has a little metal cap about 3 " long that is located in the line to the round Pressure Controll handle .... you can screw this up and down to additionally adjust pressure ... it works GREAT if you are taking a few days off...

About the Dewars..... They are all going to behave slightly different .... these things are rentals .... some are old and in not great shape.... some work great , there are usually 2 guages...one empty / full guage , and one Pressure guage ..... Ive had tanks where the guages stick .... pay close attention ...

I ve had tanks vent ... and the vented gas is so cold the release valve can freeze open .... the more it vents ....the more it ices up.....It halps to have water on hand to pour on the release valve if it vents too much....

tanks venting themselves are no fun not only is it obnoxiously loud, but can be a saftey hazzard as well as causing you to lose A LOT of o2 if your release valve gets frozen open...!!!

um.... I guess I kind of rambled on a bit ... hope it helped...

<J>
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Old 2006-03-06, 7:23pm
Tanya Tanya is offline
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Great information - Thanks!
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Old 2006-03-16, 11:44am
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hola
Ive been on the liquid diet for a coupla years now. The first thing youll notice if you get them is the price. I asked around for a while and got the "its not really good for your application" run around.......... If i were making my $ selling overpriced cylinders, id prolly try every way possible to keep people from using LOX.

The bottom line is its safe and cheap!!!

Jay seems to be pretty accurate with his discriptions of tank behavior, and like he said they are rentals so each one behaves differntly. I live in cold a$$ canada so your tanks may vent a lil more down there, but i find i rarely vent except in the summer. It was me in the other thread mentioning the "bomb" sounds. This isnt like a boom bomb sound but rather the whistle you hear b4 the boom. It is loud as hell but my neighbors dont seem to mind.................. Guess those christmas ornaments paid off.
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Old 2006-05-02, 10:51am
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I agree with boroburner, liquid is the way to go if you need it. If your neighbors are less than 20 ft away from the tank they might not be happy to wake up to it releasing.
But...I worked in a shop for a long time that used lox, at any given time there were 4+ torches running (inc. a delta), I also agree that not all tanks are likely to release. I've only heard 1 release out of 3 tanks, and it was really hot in the shop when it happened. Sometimes the top would really frost up and shoot freezing bits out when all the torches ran. We thought that after running lox for a full day the tank was 2/3 full, it was shut off (valve & reg) and the line was bled. It released about an hour later, we switched the tank and it never happened again. I loved using it, I think anyone who tries it will love it too.
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Old 2006-05-02, 5:35pm
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Quote:
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What is the answer to life? (Oh wait, I know that one...42)
yes! Be careful not to think too hard...you might get smacked in the face by a shovel.
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Old 2006-08-22, 9:28am
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I read in the last few months that Bullseye has installed a huge liquid oxygen tank and switched to it for it's applications. I also just read that Carlisle has recently switched. So I guess the word is getting out and places are finding it safe enough to use...
My supplier recently told me that they are installing LOX tanks in people's homes for medical use and now driving up and filling the tanks from a truck.
Even with the heat we had this summer my LOX tank lasted a good 8 weeks.
Just about every teacher that has come here using LOX in their personal studios...We've been using it for a year now without any problems at all..Remember you aren't using the liquid. You are using the gas that the liquid gives off...Paula
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Old 2006-08-22, 11:27am
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boroburner boroburner is offline
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Join Date: Jan 16, 2006
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 377
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I know the truck ur talking about, my neighbor is on a respirator. They have a lil mini truck come once every 2 weeks and fill his tank. Its LOX. As far as i know they dont refill onsite for industrial applications Ie. us!
B
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Old 2006-08-22, 1:15pm
jokersdesign jokersdesign is offline
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Join Date: Sep 12, 2005
Location: Central MN
Posts: 605
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This is all interesting.

What would you say about get liquid oxygen at my house and storing it in the garage and running an oxygen line into my basement?

The funny this is 2 years ago I want liquid oxygen and none of the companies would deliver it to my house.

Today, I was buying new hoses, flash backs, and regulators for my new Delta Mag and I asked about liquid oxygen. They said they would deliver it to my house a wheel it into my garage. I was surprised, because before they flat out said no way!

The other funny think is I called the other welding supply place in town that said no to liquid oxygen 2 years ago and they also now said, yes we will deliver you liquid oxygen to your house into your garage.

Do call around for prices. The welding supply place by my house quoted me $1500 for 5 year rental and then about $200 for refills.

The other welding supply place across town quoted me $800 for 5 year rental and $160 for refills and $15 to deliver.

Robert
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