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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2010-06-15, 6:14am
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Default Calico and devitrification

Is anyone else using this glass and noticing devitrification? I'm asking because I had enivisioned tree trunks and kitties and this is so not working out that way for me. Unless I'm imagining it, it almost seems like there is EDP in the mix.

Would love some input. I'm swamped this morning but I'll try to get some pics posted of what I mean with sample beads this evening.

Also, this glass has an outer core that, even with preheating, is popping and falling back in scales so it's not the easiest stuff to work with.
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  #2  
Old 2010-06-15, 11:21am
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I just got mine today and the rods look like layers of opal yellow and EDP over some kind of transparent core. I'm still at work, so haven't melted any, but from the picture of the sample bead, I didn't expect to see EDP in the rod!
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  #3  
Old 2010-06-15, 12:33pm
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Yeah Tiffany, that was my same exact thought. Mind you, I'm not sure it's EDP, it just seems like that to me. I'm getting ready to go take pics of the sample beads I was working on now so I can show what I mean a bit better. I should have them up in the next couple of hours.
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  #4  
Old 2010-06-15, 2:39pm
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I suspect I may have started this thread in the wrong place, lol-not sure where this type of post should go, maybe someone can enlighten me.

Anyway, I took pictures of what I'm talking about. As I said before, this is just not what I envisioned this glass being based on the paddle sample I saw from Frantz. I'm going to have to go back and review how to work with glass that devitrifies.

I'm not saying this glass doesn't have applications used as these sample beads are but IMO it's not a glass that will lend itself to precise application designs. More rough textured organics unless I can figure out a way (working cooler maybe) to keep the glass from devitting.

No poking fun at my beadies. This is just to show what the glass is doing, lol. On the two tree beads, I posted both so that you could see that the dark brown is not part of the calico but is some commercial dark brown stringer I had. I had this picture in my head of using calico and SIS stringers as bark overlay but, well, now not so much. And yes I know they're not pretty trees, they're the first ones I've ever done.

Anyone with any suggestions on how to work this glass to minimize the devit I would love to hear it. I'm going to experiment a lot myself since I bought a pound of this and will post results as I come up with them (if I come up with them).



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  #5  
Old 2010-06-15, 3:22pm
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I had the same problems with it. I made one Pandora-type bead with it and set it aside after that - heating it evenly and removing it from the flame removed the devit, but I was disappointed, too... I dabbed it on as I applied it to get the colors to mix and whirl, Calico is the only color used on this one.

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  #6  
Old 2010-06-15, 3:35pm
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Now see Nikki, I like that! Yours looks much more like what I envisioned it being. That gives me a direction to go in too, thanks for posting.

I like to use beadrollers so obviously with this glass heat/cool/heat/cool is not the way to go. I think your dab method was very successful. Your bead has the russet tones I was hoping for, mine has purple.

I'll try even heat applications when I get a chance to play tomorrow and hopefully that will help.
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  #7  
Old 2010-06-15, 4:47pm
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Glad to help - like EDP, once you're done shaping it, heat it all evenly to a glow - you can see the devit disappear - then let it cool enough out of the flame to not stick to anything in the kiln.

It ruined my hopes for kitty beads with it, too!!!
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  #8  
Old 2010-06-15, 8:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLC Beads View Post
(snip)
It ruined my hopes for kitty beads with it, too!!!
I know, right? *sniff* It seemed like it would have made such cool kitties too!
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  #9  
Old 2010-06-15, 9:43pm
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I did my frit tests with it and I was thinking it had EDP in it too:
http://www.listen-up.org/kitty/beads...etre/eff19.jpg

Not sure what the outer brown layer is, but it REALLY reacts with Ivory.
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Old 2010-06-15, 9:58pm
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This color really is quite pretty once you reheat it to lose the devit. I think the outer layer looks just like (and acts like) Mocha, the center has got to be EDP and some kind of transp. brown at the core. Does anyone else find it incredibly shockey?
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  #11  
Old 2010-06-16, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listenup View Post
I did my frit tests with it and I was thinking it had EDP in it too:
http://www.listen-up.org/kitty/beads...etre/eff19.jpg

Not sure what the outer brown layer is, but it REALLY reacts with Ivory.
Oh thank you so much for the frit testing Kay, it gives me some more ideas. You ladies are so great, I would never have figured this out on my own, thanks so much!

And I agree, there is some major interaction with ivory going on. That was light ivory commercial stringer I used and the black division line is like pitch black. That's a design element that should be fun to exploit.
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Old 2010-06-16, 12:05pm
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Originally Posted by Amy's Artisan Beads View Post
This color really is quite pretty once you reheat it to lose the devit. I think the outer layer looks just like (and acts like) Mocha, the center has got to be EDP and some kind of transp. brown at the core. Does anyone else find it incredibly shockey?
Me, me, I do!

I've used one whole rod so far, a good bit of which went to explosion until I moved far out in the flame and came back down into the heat slowly. That was after it sat on the Mr. Coffee mug heater I use as a rod warmer for like, half an hour. Reminds me of working with encased goldstone which I find to be very temperamental, at least the batch I had until I used it all up.

Started on a second rod and after preheating it was careful to keep it far out in the flame until I was seeing a faint glow and then it was good to go.

There has to be EDP in there, that purple in my beads is a dead ringer for it IMHO.
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Last edited by alb6094; 2010-06-16 at 12:06pm. Reason: I'm an idiot
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  #13  
Old 2010-06-17, 5:07am
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I'm so glad that you all posted! Has anyone else noticed that the "new" colors that are coming out from effetre and vetro seem to have issues? It almost seems as if the companies are selling us their "junk" pulls and counting on everyone's expertise to figure out how to use them! This might help explain the umpteen variations of coral and no decent pinks between the two. Did the product research and development people for these companies retire??
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  #14  
Old 2010-06-17, 6:35am
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Originally Posted by j2canoe View Post
I'm so glad that you all posted! Has anyone else noticed that the "new" colors that are coming out from effetre and vetro seem to have issues? It almost seems as if the companies are selling us their "junk" pulls and counting on everyone's expertise to figure out how to use them! This might help explain the umpteen variations of coral and no decent pinks between the two. Did the product research and development people for these companies retire??
This glass has been the first time that I felt confident enough with my experience to actually post and ask other people about what they were experiencing.

Myself, I'm tired of fussy glass and I'm buying more and more Reichenbach because I have consistent success with it. Maybe it's just that Reich fits my style of glassworking. It costs a bit more but IMO I'm worth it (since I've thrown out the Loreal I might as well use the hair dye money on glass, LOL).

I haven't really purchased many of the odds, I'm not much of a risk taker. That calico just really called to me because I'm trying to stretch my wings and begin to do some sculptural work. As Nikki said, it was disappointing.
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  #15  
Old 2010-06-17, 6:39am
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Also, it would have been nice if it had EDP in it if someone would have stated that. I think it still would have sold, just to the crowd that works wonders with EDP. There are those of us that like to avoid that glass, at least for awhile.

Before I posted this thread I did some reading and my understanding now is the Italians don't give a heads up on things like that, is that correct? Also, that we are not the primary market, which confuses me. Is Italy the primary market? I'm just curious.
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Old 2010-06-17, 8:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j2canoe View Post
I'm so glad that you all posted! Has anyone else noticed that the "new" colors that are coming out from effetre and vetro seem to have issues? It almost seems as if the companies are selling us their "junk" pulls and counting on everyone's expertise to figure out how to use them! This might help explain the umpteen variations of coral and no decent pinks between the two. Did the product research and development people for these companies retire??
Ding, ding, ding!!! Seems like most everything 'new' from Effetre and Vetrofond is odd lots that are lackluster mixes of other colors, or colors that are really close to what's already available.

I guess the good news is that they're odds and won't be repeated, but the bad news is that we keep importing the crap they are producing which gives them a market to make and sell more.

I think this topic should have its own thread and wish we could get enough influence in Italy to make the glass producers care what the US market wants.
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Old 2010-06-17, 8:29am
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I agree. I find that I am also buying more and more Reichenbach - I love that the colors stay saturated and, to me, they seem to be more stable both in shockiness and devit factors. I'm also beginning to discover Lausha (thank you Amber and Swamper!) which seems to be on a par with the Reich. I still really like CIM too.
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Old 2010-06-17, 8:57am
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I'm loving the Caribbean Sea, just annoyed with the Calico for the type of beads I make... I would love a devit warning on glass that does it, I steer clear... Some of the odds are awesome to me, some not so much - like any colors...
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  #19  
Old 2010-06-17, 10:37am
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Default Vanishing Devitrification

WOW, I was directed to this thread and "WOW" was what came out of my mouth, and the reason is that Pat Frantz is working on her blog for this Friday and it deals with exactly what this thread is all about. So I asked Pat for her draft and said I wanted to post some of the information now and the rest would be available on Friday.

"Devitrification can be a challenging occurrence and of course it happens with some of the most popular opaque colors, but not to worry because there is a simple solution to the problem. I have asked lots of beadmakers if they knew an easy fix to this problem and one friend of mine, Sue Stewart, told me the best solution I have learned and tested to date.

To make the devitrification go away on your bead surface, all you have to do is take some of the oxygen out of your torch flame, making the center candle of your torch flame a little longer than the outer ring of the torch flame.

This simple adjustment keeps the surface of the bead looking glassy instead of chalky whitish-gray. Every torch is slightly different, so it is wise to play around with the length of the center candle of your torch flame until you achive the desire results."

In her blog she will be showing photos done in neutral flame and covered in devitrified crystals and then one done in a propane rich flame that retained the glassy surface on the bead.


I hope this helps you overcome the problems you are experiencing with ALL glass prone to devitrification.

Don't forget to read Pat's Blog weekly, it's full of great information and is one of our most popular "clicked" items on our website. She tends to post later in the day on Friday's.

Mike Frantz
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  #20  
Old 2010-06-17, 10:48am
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I think that it's the mystery that makes Effetre fun. You never really know what you're going to get till it comes out of the kiln. I also know that many have problems with this which is why I've included it in my frit testing even though most of the colors are not available as frit.

I'm also thinking that Calico could be used to someone's benefit as a Murrine. I just don't have time to play with that. One simple rake through it and you've got a heart. A tug on each opposite sides and you have an eye, A star is also quite easy. I did do one just as a circle.

I agree with you Nikki though. For beads that require repeated heating and cooling of areas, you would get too much devit. Does etching help with devit? I haven't tried that to see how it would effect it. Anyone?

Mike and I posted at the same time. So I guess what Mike is saying is to work it in a reducing flame. I'm on a HotHead much of the time and I do still get the devit, but I'll give it a try by working in closer or try working on my Cricket.
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  #21  
Old 2010-06-17, 10:50am
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Now that's a great trick! I'm going to have to try it.
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  #22  
Old 2010-06-17, 11:05am
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I'm one of those that adores devitrifying glass. I've always gotten rid of the devit by heating it till it's not chalky, then running it on graphite to assure getting/keeping the 'glass shine' so it wouldn't re-deviting while cooling.

<not that this is an ad for my tools, any graphite will work, but I use to be known for my edp beads long before the tools, and that's how I got rid of the devit>

-D
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Old 2010-06-17, 11:12am
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Here's a set from about 5 years ago, I got the lovely variations, with no chalky finish.
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Old 2010-06-17, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefrantz View Post
WOW, I was directed to this thread and "WOW" was what came out of my mouth, and the reason is that Pat Frantz is working on her blog for this Friday and it deals with exactly what this thread is all about. So I asked Pat for her draft and said I wanted to post some of the information now and the rest would be available on Friday.

"Devitrification can be a challenging occurrence and of course it happens with some of the most popular opaque colors, but not to worry because there is a simple solution to the problem. I have asked lots of beadmakers if they knew an easy fix to this problem and one friend of mine, Sue Stewart, told me the best solution I have learned and tested to date.

To make the devitrification go away on your bead surface, all you have to do is take some of the oxygen out of your torch flame, making the center candle of your torch flame a little longer than the outer ring of the torch flame.

This simple adjustment keeps the surface of the bead looking glassy instead of chalky whitish-gray. Every torch is slightly different, so it is wise to play around with the length of the center candle of your torch flame until you achive the desire results."

In her blog she will be showing photos done in neutral flame and covered in devitrified crystals and then one done in a propane rich flame that retained the glassy surface on the bead.


I hope this helps you overcome the problems you are experiencing with ALL glass prone to devitrification.

Don't forget to read Pat's Blog weekly, it's full of great information and is one of our most popular "clicked" items on our website. She tends to post later in the day on Friday's.

Mike Frantz
I really appreciate the info Mike and I always enjoy Pat's blog. I will play with turning the O2 down. I haven't gotten back out to the torch yet, regular life has taken over but I will certainly be experimenting this weekend and will post results.
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  #25  
Old 2010-06-17, 12:08pm
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Originally Posted by cgbeads View Post
Here's a set from about 5 years ago, I got the lovely variations, with no chalky finish.
OMG *wiping drool from chin*

OK, since I do have BRs Donna - after I've got the final shape I want, if I understand Nikki and you correctly - I should apply even heat to the outside of the bead, I assume to a nice glow, and then hit it with the graphite to get rid of the devit?

Along with the flame adjustment which, if I understand that part correctly is - build the bead in a neutral flame and then turn down the O2 (to create a propy rich flame) and that propy rich flame is what you use for the final even heat up - then hit the bead with the graphite?

I've made notes to take to the torch with me this weekend. If anybody sees errors in my understanding please point it out.

I'm so glad I posted, I'm learning so much! Maybe I'll actually pick up the EDP that's been in mothballs for a year, lol.
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  #26  
Old 2010-06-17, 12:23pm
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....and I just noticed the thread was moved, thank you Corri! I see where to come with the technical posts now, I appreciate it!
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Old 2010-06-17, 12:35pm
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Yes, heat it until the devit is gone, that's the first (and most) important key, graphite helps to keep it way cause it cools it quickly.

btw, I'm not one of those that adjusts my flame, I hate trying to get it back to what I started with. <waaa> I do, however, work in different parts of the flame, so I guess that qualifies as 'kind of adjusting' to get an oxidize or reduced flame.

-D
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Old 2010-06-17, 1:08pm
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And one other thing that really chaps me is the lack of a somewhat permanent availability of the colors. I fell in love with Lace Agate and Chocolotta only to come to find out that they are not in production. Gee, I don't remember seeing that they were odd runs before I bought them - maybe I missed the info somewhere. What's the point of investing in a "new" color if you're afraid to use it due to its rather quick and unexpected expiration date? I want to invest in glass that I am pretty sure is going to be around for a reasonable amount of time! I don't mind buying odd lots - if I know that they are odd lots up front. IMO buying into a new color now can be likened to a crapshoot. I guess it might be better for me just to wait around for awhile and see what the life expectancy is before coming to depend on a particular "new" (becoming another term for odd?) color.
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Old 2010-06-17, 3:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgbeads View Post
Yes, heat it until the devit is gone, that's the first (and most) important key, graphite helps to keep it way cause it cools it quickly.

btw, I'm not one of those that adjusts my flame, I hate trying to get it back to what I started with. <waaa> I do, however, work in different parts of the flame, so I guess that qualifies as 'kind of adjusting' to get an oxidize or reduced flame.

-D
Thanks Donna!

I play with my flame adjustments all the time. I used to never adjust it after I started but then I decided part of the reason I bought the torch I have (mini CC) was for it's variety of flame settings so I'd better play with it. Now it's just become part of the flow of how I work. I know for a fact I need to learn to work further out in the flame, I tend to stay too close to the burner.
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Last edited by alb6094; 2010-06-17 at 3:35pm.
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Old 2010-06-17, 4:16pm
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That's a gorgeous set Donna!! I will have to try that as well - I usually marver with brass, so I will try it with the graphite and see if it makes a difference. BTW, etching will make the devit a little less conspicuous but it does not get rid of it.
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