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  #31  
Old 2007-03-25, 6:26pm
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ShepherdCreations ShepherdCreations is offline
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It might be me flamefilly is talking about, I posted about that in another thread. I have my tank and Devilbiss hooked up to my National 8M when hubby uses it, since I run the Hurricane with my Barracuda and don't use tanked oxy or the 8m much anymore. We turn the concentrator on full flow, then make sure the psi is no higher on the tank than the concentrator is. They both connect to a 'y' into the torch, and it sure uses the tanked oxy a lot slower than just the tank alone. It's cheaper to run it that way, since a Devilbiss doesn't use as much electricity as my generator to run and it prolongs the time between getting our tanks filled. My hubby set it up and maintains my studio so I know it's safe, since he's a chemical engineer and very handy. Good luck!
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  #32  
Old 2007-03-25, 6:26pm
smutboy420 smutboy420 is offline
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The concentrators work because of being so close in pressure and flow.

If you got the psi matched exactly right. It would kind of work. lets say a hypothetical 9lb psi. is the pressure your looking for.
If you have both set at Exactly 9 psi. Any time the concentrator fluctuates and drops below 9psi the tank will want to push threw. But if the concentrator is trying to push say 8.5 psi in to an opposing stream its going to be hard. inless the pressure in the concentrator builds up to 9 or higher then it will be the stronger stream. But the tank would usually win because its not going to fall behind intill the tank starts to empty. and some times the pressure on any giving gauge is RELATIVE to normal air pressure on most regulators you are going to have a very slight change in the pressure of any regulator from day to day or even hour to hour as the weather changes. So to keep the 2 pressures that closely matched might be a lot of fiddling around for a lil bit of any thing back.

So in terms of it being hooked up to save tanked o2 by having the concentrator supplement the supply its not too practical.

Now on the other hand IF you want to Use tanked o2 to supplement your concentrator if it drops in pressure when you torch You could have it to provide a "BOOST" if you had the tank pressure set below the pressure of the concentrator. In theory the tank would not bleed in to the system inless the pressure in the hose dropped below the pressure set on the tank.
So say the tank is set at 7 or 8 psi and the concentrator is pushing 9 psi. the tank should not feed inless the concentrator started to fall behind on pressure.

But the easiest sure fire way to use a tank and a concentrator together is on a 2 stage torch and to run the stage thats always on like the center on a concentrator and then run your bigger 2'nd stage fire from the tanked o2. then your only using the tank while the outer tank is on and not using it at all when the 2'nd stage is off.

Now on a much larger system like an o2 generator that has much higher pressure and a holding tank. You could have a tank hooked up in such a way as to be able to have the tank add pressure to the system if it ever fell behind a certain pressure in the holding tank. BUT only because the pressures that the gen. outputs verses the much lower pressure the user is drawing off for there torch. verses the tun on and turn of pressure of the generator. Is the only reason thats doable.
Like an onsite pro4 or a pro8 for instance. they a 60 gallon holding tank. The holding tank has a pressure switch on it that is usually set to turn the generator on if the holding tank PSI falls below 45 psi and turn the gen off when the holding tank is at 60 psi.
Now let say you run your torch at 30psi. Some times if you are really rageing for a while your holding tank pressure will still fall below 45 psi if your drawing o2 out of the tank faster then the generator is making it at the moment. Depending on the torch your using.
But you could have a tank of high pressure o2 hooked in to the holding tank that is set at 29 PSI. Then if you ever where torching so hard that the tank dropped to 29psi then the tanked o2 will keep the holding tank filled to 29psi.
intill the generator build the pressure up in the tank past 29 psi. So in a situation like that if you just can't have a interruption of your o2 stream if you have times that might occasionally need the boost from the tanked o2.

There also is a way to have a tank set up so it is on a switched valve and it turns on when a switch is activated. So it switches to the tanked o2 while the gen builds the pressure back up in the holding tank.
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  #33  
Old 2007-03-25, 6:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShepherdCreations View Post
It might be me flamefilly is talking about, I posted about that in another thread. I have my tank and Devilbiss hooked up to my National 8M when hubby uses it, since I run the Hurricane with my Barracuda and don't use tanked oxy or the 8m much anymore. We turn the concentrator on full flow, then make sure the psi is no higher on the tank than the concentrator is. They both connect to a 'y' into the torch, and it sure uses the tanked oxy a lot slower than just the tank alone. It's cheaper to run it that way, since a Devilbiss doesn't use as much electricity as my generator to run and it prolongs the time between getting our tanks filled. My hubby set it up and maintains my studio so I know it's safe, since he's a chemical engineer and very handy. Good luck!
Yes - You are the one! I searched for your post but couldn't find it and since I have a National 8m I took note of it but at the time didn't think I would go that route. Thanks

And Thanks Smutboy for the detailed explaination. Clarifies things to the point I doubt I'll do it...although I might experiment out of curiosity to see if there is a difference in flame quality...

My hubby works in Hydraulics...we might get to tinkering...
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  #34  
Old 2007-03-25, 7:11pm
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bhhco bhhco is offline
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Originally Posted by ShepherdCreations View Post
...We turn the concentrator on full flow, then make sure the psi is no higher on the tank than the concentrator is. ...!
How, and at what point in the system, do you measure the pressure output of the oxycon (which is used as a set point for the tank regulator)?

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  #35  
Old 2007-03-27, 6:23am
smutboy420 smutboy420 is offline
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Quote:
My hubby works in Hydraulics...we might get to tinkering...
In that case he prob has forgotten more then I know about it all.



Quote:
How, and at what point in the system, do you measure the pressure output of the oxycon (which is used as a set point for the tank regulator)?
In a test situation or a repair place they useally take the pressure reading from a tap thats inside the unit right thats right by the internal regulater.

But it can also have a pressure gauge hooked up to the outlet on the out side that your hose hooks up to get a pressure reading. wich might be more closer to the actuall working pressures its putting out at the nozel.
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  #36  
Old 2007-03-27, 6:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smutboy420 View Post
In a test situation or a repair place they useally take the pressure reading from a tap thats inside the unit right thats right by the internal regulater.

But it can also have a pressure gauge hooked up to the outlet on the out side that your hose hooks up to get a pressure reading. wich might be more closer to the actuall working pressures its putting out at the nozel.
Yes... we tap inside (not by the regulator, but just prior to the flow gage). You will get very interesting readings if tapped external at the oxycon and at the torch. Try it... very surprising to most folks. Begins to clarify what 'pressure' (a simple scalar conjugate) really is -- and isn't.

No... the reason for the question 'how & where' was the post was unclear what the oxygen tank regulator setting was really referenced to... you'd be surprised how many folks think the oxycon flow gage is a pressure gage... and it appears the poster may have used the flow gage reading as a psig measurement, and set the tank regulator "no higher"... or took a actual psig reading at the end of the hose, versus the internal oxycon tap.

Folks tend to 'see' what they expect to see... so some very strange configurations are often purported to work really well, when actually it's self-fulfilling expections only. For example, a flameworker who hooked up fish tank air pump to an oxycon and believed it was a major improvement in oxygen purity... ok... if 0.01% oxygen improvement is major... and you disregard the flame temperature cooling effects of 78% nitrogen.

Just trying to get a handle on the facts...

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Last edited by bhhco; 2007-03-27 at 7:21am.
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  #37  
Old 2007-03-27, 7:21am
smutboy420 smutboy420 is offline
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I can relate to that. I see peole all the time think noise = heat if there torch is louder then anouther they think its hotter. When its just louder.

I had a check valve on my pro4 get stuck once in the bitter cold. it was causing the holding tank to fill with nitrogen. at first glance it seemd like the roch was rageing. But the delta was hardly getting a pcs of rod soft enought to bend. But boy was it loud. I know there are blowers that would swear it was a hot flame even if it took for ever to melt the glass.

I see peepol have there pressurse set so high they get the same thing going on where they are just making a lot more noise and a lot less heat but swear they are torching hotter.

I know on my redmax if I turn the o2 up past 30 psi it takes alot longer to melt the same sized pcs of glass but yet its a lot louder.

I see it with GTTs is some one is used to working on anouther torch they try to crank up the pressure to try and make the gtt run as lound as they can get it and because its stil hotter then what ever torch they used to work on they think they are gaining some thing. and have no idea how hot it really can be if they tame the pressure down a lil bit.

Its like a teen ager with some POS car that has no muffler. they think they have some fast hotrod when its just loud.

So I could see some one swearing a fish pump pumping n2 in to the mix is making there torch SEEM like its rageing when its infact cooling the flame.
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  #38  
Old 2007-03-29, 9:51pm
bluefox bluefox is offline
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Hey everyone. I am taking a lampworking class and enjoying it greatly, and I am currently toying with the idea of setting up a Carlisle Wildcat (2 valve) to a cheapo oxycon for some light to midrange boro work. I am not 100% knowledgable on all this yet, so I appologize if I say something impossible or stupid.

Can a oxycon fill up a 02 tank? It would be great if I could just get a big ass 02 tank, let a oxycon fill it up, then disconnect the oxycon from the tank, and connect the tank to the torch, lampwork away untill the tank runs out, then use the oxycon to fill it back up overnight.

I guess it would look something like this -
Oxycon --> backflow resistor --> O2 tank --> Oxygen regulator --> Torch

Anyway, sorry if this is a stupid question...thanks for the help.

-rob
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  #39  
Old 2007-03-29, 10:05pm
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Originally Posted by bluefox View Post
Can a oxycon fill up a 02 tank? It would be great if I could just get a big ass 02 tank, let a oxycon fill it up, then disconnect the oxycon from the tank, and connect the tank to the torch, lampwork away untill the tank runs out, then use the oxycon to fill it back up overnight.

I guess it would look something like this -
Oxycon --> backflow resistor --> O2 tank --> Oxygen regulator --> Torch

-rob
No. A very good concept but here's the challenge. To get all the cubic foot of oxygen into the tank (about 270 cubic foot) it's pumped into the tank under pressure -- thus referred to as compressed gas. In fact, standard oxygen tank is very compressed gas... with a tank pressure of 2100 psig.

Unfortunately, oxycons only pump oxygen at 5 psig to 10 psig. Some of the larger models, referred to as oxygen generators, can pump out 20 psig. Still not quite enough to put much more than about 5 cubic foot in the tank before it just can't pump any more.

There are some oxycons with a 'air tank' attached where you can store a little reserve oxygen for short quick boosts... but not for running very long.

Good logic though

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  #40  
Old 2007-03-30, 8:29am
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From what I've read yes, that's possible actually. You just need to buy an expensive compressor to go between the oxycon and the tank. Rix makes a microbooster that Ro uses to fill her tanks overnight. It takes longer with an oxycon versus a generator but it is definitely possible and several folks do it. I think Ro has a picture on her website of her setup, www.rosglassworld.com . Good luck!
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  #41  
Old 2007-04-05, 9:52am
smutboy420 smutboy420 is offline
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The only thing tho is a rix compresser cost about 5 grand. More then a huge o2 genarater set up. The rix also needs maintance. a few times a year if you use it a lot. And the rix is not meant to filling a compleatly empty tank as much as its meant for topping off a tank that is not all the way full. Scuba divers use them to add nitrogen and o2 to scuba tanks for nitrox diving. But they are consided one of the lower end dive compressers by a lot of scuba divers that fill there own tanks. There considered to be POS from any reviews I have read form divers that use em.

Inless some had to have there tanks portable for taking to anouther location. and bug industral o2 gen is the way to go. for the $$

My onsite pro8 has a 60 gallon holding tank that fills up to 60psi then it shuts off. and turns back on when the tank drops to 45 psi
It makes the equivlent of a K tank worth of o2 about every 3 hours.
So I get all the o2 I and meghan can use. out of it and it don't have to be stripped down and rebuilt every few months.
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