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Jelveh Designs - Glass Beads Torched One-by-One

Beads of Courage


 
  #1  
Old 2008-06-04, 5:36pm
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Default Torch Consumption Rates

Here are the maximum consumption rates for various torches used for lampworking. I'm starting this off with the numbers that I had off the top of my head or easily at hand. I will edit as necessary to reflect accurate rates and to add more data. Most rates were taken from the manufacturers. Some rates were acquired through testing that I had done and will be noted with[*].

Some rates are what is measured when the valves are all the way open. Other rates are what is measured when running the largest usable flame. I feel that these are the most useful numbers and will note them with [++]

Disclaimer: While I have made every effort to ensure that this information is correct, I cannot gaurantee it. Use this data at your own risk.

Most of these rates are listed as cubic feet per hour (CFH). To convert to LPM, multiply by 0.472.

Where I have both oxygen and fuel consumption rates listed, I list the oxygen rate first. Fuel will be for propane unless otherwise noted.

GTT
Bobcat:
Lynx: ++14-15 CFH / 3.5 CFH
Cheetah: ++22 CFH
Phantom: ++35-40 CFH
Mirage: ++55 CFH
Delta Elite: ++65 CFH
Delta Mag: ++80-90 CFH
Cobra:
Python:
Viper:

Bethlehem
Minnow: 20 CFH
Betta: 12 CFH
Piranha/centerfire: (++*16 CFH oxy), 9.6 CFH / 2.8 CFH
Barracuda: ++42 CFH / 8.4 CFH
Tiger Shark: ++48 CFH / 12 CFH
Great White: ++84.5 CFH/ 48.1 CFH
PM2D: ++65 CFH / 37 CFH

Carlisle
Mini CC: 7 LPM (standard usage)
Wildcat:
Hellcat:
Lucio torch:
CC: ++*80 CFH
CC+:
Black Widow:

Nortel
Minor: ++14 CFH
Mega Minor:
Midrange:
Major:
RedMax:
Red Rocket:
SSQ:

Knight
Little Dragon 7-hole: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG)
Little Dragin 21-hole: 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)
Bullet: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG) for the center and 100 CFH/50 CFH (NG) for just the outer = for a toal of 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)
Dragon Fire: 180 CFH/90 CFH
Dragon Master: 330 CFH/165 CFH
Dragon Slayer: 676 CFH/338 CFH

Premier
National 8M SM7 tip:
National 8M SM21 tip:

Herbert Arnold
Arni:
Zenit 65: 165.9 CFH


As we get more and more information together, I will put this all in a spreadsheet that will be much easier to read.
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Last edited by kbinkster; 2008-06-05 at 12:09pm. Reason: updated
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  #2  
Old 2008-06-04, 7:15pm
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Whoa!!
Those Knight numbers are way off.
150 CFH Holy S**T Batman
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Old 2008-06-04, 7:27pm
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Awesome start, Kimberly .. . is it cool if I cut and paste as this progresses? Trey questioned the 150 CFH, maybe a typo?

I also coverted CFH to LPM based on how you told me to calculate in the other thread coz my brain works in lpm! lol! Please do correct me if I did my conversion wrong!

GTT
Bobcat:
Lynx: 14-15 CFH / 3.5 CFH (please clarify this, Kimberly! Thanks!)
Cheetah: 22 CFH / 10.4 LMP
Phantom: 35-40 CFH / 16.5-18.9 LPM
Mirage: 55 CFH /26 LPM
Delta Elite: 65 CFH / 30.7 LPM
Delta Mag: 80-90 CFH / 37.8-42.5 LPM
Cobra:
Python:
Viper:

Bethlehem
Minnow: 20 CFH / 9.4 LPM
Betta: 12 CFH / 5.7 LPM
Piranha/centerfire: *9.6 CFH / 4.5 LPM
Barracuda: 42 CFH / 19.8 LPM . . . / 8.4 CFH (?_
Tiger Shark:
Great White:
PM2D: 65 CFH / 30.7 LPM

Carlisle
Mini CC: 14.8 CFH / 7 LPM (standard usage)
Wildcat:
Hellcat: 29.7 CFH / 14 LPM
Lucio torch:
CC: *80 CFH / 37.8 LPM
CC+:
Black Widow:

Nortel
Minor: 14 CFH / 6.6 LPM
Mega Minor:
Midrange:
Major:
RedMax:
Red Rocket:
SSQ:

Knight
Little Dragon 7-hole: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG) / 23.6 LPM/11.8 LPM (NG)
Little Dragon 21-hole: 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)
Bullet: 50 CFH (center) + 100 CFH (outer) = 150 CFH total/75 CFH (NG) (Trey questioned this one!)

Premier
National 8M SM7 tip:
National 8M SM21 tip:

Herbert Arnold
Arni:
Zenit 65: 165.9 CFH / 78.3 LPM

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Last edited by Hayley; 2008-06-05 at 10:00pm.
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Old 2008-06-04, 7:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
Whoa!!
Those Knight numbers are way off.
150 CFH Holy S**T Batman
Those are the rates that Knight provided. I do not know if they are the maximum amount of gas passed that can be passed through the torch (what I suspect) or the actual consumtion rate of the largest usable flame. Knight simply states that they are the maximum consumption rate.

I am attaching the pdf files from Knight.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf LD21.pdf (180.7 KB, 787 views)
File Type: pdf LD7.pdf (164.5 KB, 668 views)
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Old 2008-06-04, 7:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
Awesome start, Kimberly .. . is it cool if I cut and paste as this progresses? Trey questioned the 150 CFH, maybe a typo?

I also coverted CFH to LPM based on how you told me to calculate in the other thread coz my brain works in lpm! lol! Please do correct me if I did my conversion wrong!

GTT
Bobcat:
Lynx: 14-15 CFH / 3.5 CFH (please clarify this, Kimberly! Thanks!)
Cheetah: 22 CFH / 10.4 LMP
Phantom: 35-40 CFH / 16.5-18.9 LPM
Mirage: 55 CFH /26 LPM
Delta Elite: 65 CFH / 30.7 LPM
Delta Mag: 80-90 CFH / 37.8-42.5 LPM
Cobra:
Python:
Viper:

Bethlehem
Minnow: 20 CFH / 9.4 LPM
Betta: 12 CFH / 5.7 LPM
Piranha/centerfire: *9.6 CFH / 4.5 LPM
Barracuda: 42 CFH / 19.8 LPM . . . / 8.4 CFH (?_
Tiger Shark:
Great White:
PM2D: 65 CFH / 30.7 LPM

Carlisle
Mini CC: 14.8 CFH / 7 LPM (standard usage)
Wildcat:
Hellcat: 29.7 CFH / 14 LPM
Lucio torch:
CC: *80 CFH / 37.8 LPM
CC+:
Black Widow:

Nortel
Minor: 14 CFH / 6.6 LPM
Mega Minor:
Midrange:
Major:
RedMax:
Red Rocket:
SSQ:

Knight
Little Dragon 7-hole: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG) / 23.6 LPM/11.8 LPM (NG)
Little Dragon 21-hole: 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG) ( Trey questioned this one!)
Bullet: 50 CFH (center) + 100 CFH (outer) = 150 CFH total/75 CFH (NG) (hmmm can't decipher this one! lol!)

Premier
National 8M SM7 tip:
National 8M SM21 tip:

Herbert Arnold
Arni:
Zenit 65: 165.9 CFH / 78.3 LPM

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The number you can't seem to decipher is the breakdown of the oxy consumption for the inner fire, the outer fire, and both inner and out fires together of the Knight Bullet and then the fuel consumption rate (natural gas) of the entire torch. Basically, they are using a 2:1 ratio.

I included the pdf file for those rates (see previous post)
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  #6  
Old 2008-06-04, 8:11pm
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I guess Knight has a typo. I worked on a knight bullet burner or several weeks full time and consumed about the same O2 as a Barracuda, maybe a little less.
This was on tanks and working at times at the max output of the torch.
This really points out that what Brent is working on is a good idea.
A full listing of torches and consumption compiled by a qualified operator familiar with the production techniques we use.
Perhaps the numbers from the manufacturers are not real world numbers.
Looks like we will find out as soon as Brent has a chance to complete his research.
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Old 2008-06-04, 8:16pm
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Wow, this info is great. Anyway it can be made a sticky?
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  #8  
Old 2008-06-04, 8:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
I guess Knight has a typo. I worked on a knight bullet burner or several weeks full time and consumed about the same O2 as a Barracuda, maybe a little less.
This was on tanks and working at times at the max output of the torch.
This really points out that what Brent is working on is a good idea.
A full listing of torches and consumption compiled by a qualified operator familiar with the production techniques we use.
Perhaps the numbers from the manufacturers are not real world numbers.
Looks like we will find out as soon as Brent has a chance to complete his research.
I'm sure that Knight did not make a typo on their product data information. I have similar numbers for the Premier torches (National) and the Herbert Arnold torches.

For the torches that we have been testing for the past few years, we use very high quality in-line flow meters and pressure gauges (costing several hundreds of dollars - not the cheap type) and measure the largest usable flame. I cannot speak for the other companies out there, but GTT knows flame characterisitics very well.
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  #9  
Old 2008-06-04, 9:26pm
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I updated the info for the Piranha and added more Beth torch specs thanks to Flamesetter on GLDG. I have the same spec sheet that he has, but mine is in a box of my office stuff right now. I can double check the numbers on my sheet later, but these numbers are what I remember, anyway, for those torches.

Beth had listed the Piranha as consuming 9.6 CFH, but we tested it (well, the centerfire of a PM2D - same thing) at 16 CFH
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Old 2008-06-04, 9:28pm
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Thanks Kimberly and Brent. It's about time we have a real discussion about this topic. There is just so much misinformation out there. I'm so happy to see people trying to put out reliable info.

I just wish that the manufactures of the torches and concentrators would get together and come up with a standard of measurement us simple folk can relate too.

Also I think it would be a big help if BTU's were part of the equation.

But thanks to everyone that worked on get out accurate info.
Scott
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Last edited by Tanner Studios; 2008-06-04 at 10:43pm.
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  #11  
Old 2008-06-04, 9:33pm
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I have posted this information on several threads, but just had not put it all together in one place until now.

Thanks, Brent, for lighting the fire to get me to re-post all the work I have been doing for the last few years.
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Last edited by kbinkster; 2008-06-04 at 9:35pm.
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Old 2008-06-04, 9:48pm
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Hey Kimberly . . . give me a wee bit of credit for lighting the fire to get you to post this, will ya? I knew that if I were to start compiling the list in the other thread, you data geeks will surely correct me and fill in the blanks!!!

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...&postcount=172

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
I started this . . . hopefully will fill in more numbers.

Got the Bethlehem numbers from its website, Carlisle numbers from its product sheets, GTT numbers from Kimberly's previous posts, Nortel site doesn't show anything . . . does anyone have Knight website URL?

Bethlehem
Minnow 9.4 LPM / 20 CFH
Betta 5.7 LPM / 12 CFH
Barracuda 19.9 LPM / 42 CFH
PM2D-WC 30.8 LPM / 65 CFH

Carlisle
Mini CC 7 LPM / 14 CFH
Wildcat 15 LPM / 30 CFM
Hellcat

GTT
Bobcat 4.7 LPM / 10 CFH
Lynx 6.6 LPM / 14 CFH
Cheetah 10.3 LPM / 22 CFH
Phantom 18.9 LPM / 40 CFH

Knight
Little Dragon 7-jet
Little Dragon 21-jet
Bullet
Dragon Fire

Nortel
Minor
Mega Minor
Midrange Plus
Red Max
Rocket

Hope this helps.
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Last edited by Hayley; 2008-06-04 at 9:54pm.
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  #13  
Old 2008-06-04, 10:01pm
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LOL
Hayley, thank you, too!

I kept mentioning that the data I collected was posted but that I would put this info in its own thread. I guess it was good that you weren't going to wait on me. You pulling up my previously posted numbers and the numbers posted on the Carlisle and Beth sites was the kick in the pants I needed to just get on with it. Thank you.

I'm just glad that this is in its own thread where the info won't get buried.
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Old 2008-06-04, 11:53pm
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Just a question here, I notice that all the adds for GTT torches list the Cheetah as 12 jet torch, mine has 13 jets, I may be a bit slow in some respects but I can count, it seems there must be two models, were the tests done with a 12 jet Cheetah or a 13 jet Cheetah?
Bernard
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Old 2008-06-05, 5:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Here are the maximum consumption rates for various torches used for lampworking. I'm starting this off with the numbers that I had off the top of my head or easily at hand. I will edit as necessary to reflect accurate rates and to add more data. Most rates were taken from the manufacturers. Some rates were acquired through testing that I had done and will be noted with[*].

Disclaimer: While I have made every effort to ensure that this information is correct, I cannot gaurantee it. Use this data at your own risk.

Most of these rates are listed as cubic feet per hour (CFH). To convert to LPM, multiply by 0.472.

Where I have both oxygen and fuel consumption rates listed, I list the oxygen rate first. Fuel will be for propane unless otherwise noted.

GTT
Bobcat:
Lynx: 14-15 CFH / 3.5 CFH
Cheetah: 22 CFH
Phantom: 35-40 CFH
Mirage: 55 CFH
Delta Elite: 65 CFH
Delta Mag: 80-90 CFH
Cobra:
Python:
Viper:

Bethlehem
Minnow: 20 CFH
Betta: 12 CFH
Piranha/centerfire: (*16 CFH oxy), 9.6 CFH / 2.8 CFH
Barracuda: 42 CFH / 8.4 CFH
Tiger Shark: 48 CFH / 12 CFH
Great White: 84.5 CFH/ 48.1 CFH
PM2D: 65 CFH / 37 CFH

Carlisle
Mini CC: 7 LPM (standard usage)
Wildcat:
Hellcat: 14 LPM
Lucio torch:
CC: *80 CFH
CC+:
Black Widow:

Nortel
Minor: 14 CFH
Mega Minor:
Midrange:
Major:
RedMax:
Red Rocket:
SSQ:

Knight
Little Dragon 7-hole: 50 CFH/25 CFH (NG)
Little Dragin 21-hole: 150 CFH/75 CFH (NG)
Bullet: 50 CFH (center) + 100 CFH (outer) = 150 CFH total/75 CFH (NG)

Premier
National 8M SM7 tip:
National 8M SM21 tip:

Herbert Arnold
Arni:
Zenit 65: 165.9 CFH
Thank you Kimberly. I'll let everyone know my test results as soon as I get them.
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Old 2008-06-05, 6:00am
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Oh an thank you too Hayley.


Didn't want to leave you out.
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Old 2008-06-05, 6:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway View Post
Just a question here, I notice that all the adds for GTT torches list the Cheetah as 12 jet torch, mine has 13 jets, I may be a bit slow in some respects but I can count, it seems there must be two models, were the tests done with a 12 jet Cheetah or a 13 jet Cheetah?
Bernard
When the Cheetah first came out, it had 12 jets. It was changed to 13 jets. The testing was done on the newer model.
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Old 2008-06-05, 8:09am
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I have someone who swears his CC consumes less oxygen than my phantom. He's wrong correct?
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Old 2008-06-05, 8:25am
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I suppose if you rage your phantom and he runs his CC like a wimp sure. I know my CC ate oxygen at bank breaking rates.
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Old 2008-06-05, 8:38am
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We'll he's worked on both torches, I dont think he understands that if you run the phantom properly that it penetrates without the ragin flame. Maybe he's just jealous..
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Old 2008-06-05, 8:47am
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I'm sure he is...I'd never go back to carlisle after having a GTT...and I was faithful to that CC for 8 years.
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Old 2008-06-05, 8:48am
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A lot of people think that you have to scream the oxygen through the torch to get the hottest flame. That does not give the hottest flame at all, because running a torch with excessive oxygen really cools down the flame.
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Old 2008-06-05, 8:51am
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I think that on some torches, you have to run a lot of oxy to get a clean flame and if someone is used to running their torch that way, when they switch to a GTT, they might run it with too much oxygen out of habit. Also, noise has a lot to do with it. They are so used to their hottest flame being super loud and rage a GTT to match the sound.
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Old 2008-06-05, 9:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Those are the rates that Knight provided. I do not know if they are the maximum amount of gas passed that can be passed through the torch (what I suspect) or the actual consumtion rate of the largest usable flame. Knight simply states that they are the maximum consumption rate.

I am attaching the pdf files from Knight.
Yeah, I know Knight says those numbers, but they aren't accurate. The Bullet and Hellcat are the same torch (words from the mouth of a Carlisle representative), so should be very similar in consumption. Same with the Mini CC/Little Dragon (again, from a Carlisle rep).

I believe their numbers are how much gas passes through them when the valve is wide open. I put my Little Dragon on a flowbench and tested it and got similar numbers. The flowbench doesn't belong to me or I'd use it to test all the torches I have.
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Old 2008-06-05, 9:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
Yeah, I know Knight says those numbers, but they aren't accurate. The Bullet and Hellcat are the same torch (words from the mouth of a Carlisle representative), so should be very similar in consumption. Same with the Mini CC/Little Dragon (again, from a Carlisle rep).

I believe their numbers are how much gas passes through them when the valve is wide open. I put my Little Dragon on a flowbench and tested it and got similar numbers. The flowbench doesn't belong to me or I'd use it to test all the torches I have.
You've got a good point about them being the same as the Carlisle. So, perhaps those numbers are as I suspected - what can be passed through the torch. Did you measure the rates at largest usable flame on the LD and get similar results to what Carlisle posted for the Mini CC, or did you test the LD with the oxy valve wide open and get similar numbers to what Knight posted?
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Old 2008-06-05, 9:35am
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All I measured was airflow. The flowbench just measures volume. It's designed to measure the flow rate of carbeurators, but can measure anything really. I hooked it up to the oxygen inlet and turned it on with the oxygen valve wide open.

This has been over a year ago, so I don't have the exact numbers. I do remember that at wide open the Knight flowed about 1.5x as much as a Minor.
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  #27  
Old 2008-06-05, 12:12pm
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Big Jay on the GLDG just gave me some figures for a few more of the Knight torches.

I believe that some of these really large figures are the flow measured with the oxygen valve(s) wide open. I feel that numbers showing the consumption rate for the largest usable flame are more useful. I will be making note of those numbers with [++].
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Old 2008-06-05, 7:01pm
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Hey Haley,
It was the Knight Bullet burner I questioned.
I can see how these figure could be correct if the measurement was based upon the largest volume of air that could pass through the torch with the valves set wide open. As far as usable flame they would be way off.
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Old 2008-06-05, 7:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
Hey Haley,
It was the Knight Bullet burner I questioned.
I can see how these figure could be correct if the measurement was based upon the largest volume of air that could pass through the torch with the valves set wide open. As far as usable flame they would be way off.
If someone wanted to compare torches with concentrators, how useful would the figures for torches be if they were the largest volume that could pass through as opposed to the volume needed to produce a usable flame?
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Old 2008-06-05, 9:58pm
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Here is the problem with these numbers. With out an unbiased performance model we're comparing Apples to Oranges. Example, take a Phantom, Knight Bullet and the Hellcat. These torches would be in the same class. Just by looking at the numbers one can not gleam any information with out knowing what was produced at the other end of the torch.

That is why we need to know what BTU's are being produced with the CFH.

In order to get an accurate test the temperature of the flames must be measured first ( Accurately ). So that a standard for each class of torches can be determined. Then with all of the torches ( within their class ) set so their reproducing the same temp or BTU's the flow of fuel could be measured accurately. Giving a real table to compare torches. After that one could find the maximum useable flame for each torch.

I'm not dismissing Kimberly hard work. I'm just saying these numbers are just one part of the equation. The other part needed would be the temperature of the flame itself. That way we're comparing Apples to Apples.

Just a thought
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Last edited by Tanner Studios; 2008-06-05 at 10:03pm.
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