GTT - Very disappointed - Page 3

lunamoonshadow · #61 2009-03-20, 10:50am

Thank you for all that incredibly detailed information on flame chemistry Kimberly
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I'm sitting here like a sponge absorbing it & filing it in my brain so I won't mess up my new shiny purple cricket too much when I get it running
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Gotta keep it perfect!

Hels · #62 2009-03-20, 11:07am

Hrm. I must have said that poorly
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. I said that you cannot run a Bobcat with 1" candles to make soft glass, and that at the time, I believed that a smaller flame would damage my torch. Or maybe that was what I meant to say?

If it's smaller than 1" flames, you can do soft glass obviously, but I was told when I started (boro) to keep it at a 1" flame, THEN I tried to do soft glass, and those were my experiences... doing soft glass on a bobcat using 1" candles (melted mushy blobby glass).

And... that was then, when I obviously knew very little. I sold my Bobcat within my first 5 months of doing glass (90% of my website gallery glass were made in my first 5 months of hearing lampworking existed, so my pieces were ok at best).

I can work soft glass on a Phantom just fine now
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. My note was about the bobcat's capabilities on the large end, and what it could make, based on what little I knew at the time.

These are my favorite/best 5 marbles that were made on my Bobcat (thanks to my one and only glass class with John Kobuki):

kbinkster · #63 2009-03-20, 11:12am

Those are beauties, Hels. I especially like the top left one.

BeadMaven · #64 2009-03-20, 11:22am

I too want to thank everyone for all the info in this thread.

I have a Bobcat I purchased second hand last year in the garage and have no instructions or cleaner wires for it - let alone knowing much about it. I had read before that it tends to be a hot torch and I could even do boro on it - so in a way thats great, if I ever want to try boro. I tend to work cool for now, but good to know I can go hot if I need to. lol

Great info here - so thanks bunches!

Pretty Hels!

Hels · #65 2009-03-20, 12:16pm

Thanks Kimberly and Dana
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. I didn't post it just to show off, but to say that if a bobcat can work solid rod boro (very high melting temp) ... it's clearly a very hot torch... and some people buy it as a 'beginning torch' for soft glass, before they know much about flame control. Ouch. It's really a bad torch for a beginning soft glass person, and I think a cricket would be better.

It IS a great beginning torch for boro tho! I did a LOT with my bobcat starting out.

kbinkster · #66 2009-03-20, 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalera
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Monica, have you tried new hoses on the torch? I know it's a longshot, but the fact that you have even candles but the torch keeps shooting junk out makes me wonder if it's picking up debris from somewhere else, and the only thing I can think of is that your hoses might be deteriorating.

I was wondering the same thing and asked about it in a PM. If she is using different hoses for each torch, that could be a possibility.

Hels · #67 2009-03-20, 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster
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Burning up a torch means pretty much just that. If you have the point of ignition (where the fuel and oxygen mix and ignite) too close to the face of the torch, you will overheat the face of the torch and the heat sinks back into the ends of the tubes. The hot metal grabs onto carbon from the fuel. The carbon builds up, flakes off, and shoots onto your work. As it builds up in the torch, it, too, gets hot. It attracts more carbon and gets baked onto the metal. It causes the metal to get even hotter. If left uncleaned and more carbon keeps building up, eventually, the metal can wear away. It melts back, or errodes. At that point, metal from the torch itself can break off and get shot onto the work. Once that happens, the point of ignition for that jet is moved even closer to the face of the torch and the problem gets worse. This is what burning up a torch is.

Quick note, this is another thing I wanted to know
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. Thanks Kimberly!!

Ok... so... if you run a torch continuously too weak for it's size, ie., dial it down so the candles are tiny all the time, isn't the ignition practically at the face of the torch... so it burns up?

So... 1" candles is overkill... what is optimal candle length away from torch face for a 1. cricket, 2. bobcat 3. lynx 4. cheetah? That is, where if it's consistently run below that length, the torch runs the risk of burning up? Your example was 1/16"... wouldn't that risk the carbon buildup you were referring to? I'm just making sure I understand what you meant. This is great info!!

**Edited to add... I clearly have trouble reading today... *must cut back on multi-tasking while reading notes so as not to appear illiterate*. You said that the key is the smaller the overall candle, the LESS yellow/white tip. So that means that you will NOT EVER burn up your torch if you run it to burn at the face (barely visible candles) SO LONG AS you have NO yellow/white flame showing there, right? Thanks
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Trey Cornette · #68 2009-03-20, 12:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pam
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I've read this whole thread and I just have to comment, I have never seen any torch by any maker that builds up carbon when the torch is run properly. The fact, as far as I know, that the torch builds up carbon is a result of not being run correctly. "Not run properly" can have lots of meanings, bad fuel, bad fuel/oxy balance, whatever, but when any torch is run "properly" it does not build up carbon. Carbon says I am not being run properly or I have not been run properly in the past.

Pam I must respectfully disagree with you that a bench burner that is building up carbon is being run improperly. While this is true with the GTT burners many other brands have no problems handling carbon build up and require only a proper cleaning afterward. This may not be the most efficient flame but sometimes it is what's required to achieve certain effects. The only company that I am aware of that actually warns its customers not to use this type of flame or risk torch damage is GTT. I follow their advice with my Phantom and use my Bethlehem Barracuda when I need to run a flame chemistry that GTT warns me away from.

Hels · #69 2009-03-20, 1:04pm

Trey.... what is the difference in the tubing that allows other brands to run reduced and not clog, but clogs a GTT? Is it because the tubes are smaller on a GTT to get the hotter flame? Thanks
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Trey Cornette · #70 2009-03-20, 1:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbinkster
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And Pam is absolutely correct. Carboning happens to any torch when it is not being run properly and any torch that is in proper working order (no damage) and being run correctly should not have a problem with carbon.

Monica Sorry for derailing your thread but theses broad based generalizations being applied to all bench burners just eats me up.

Kim I thoroughly respect that you have the best source in the world for GTT bench burner information. I am sure you also have a good working knowledge as well but not all bench burners have issues with reduction atmospheres. Just because running a reduction flame is damaging to or causes the need for intensive factory servicing on a GTT bench burner does not mean that that same rule holds true for all torches. I have run reducing atmospheres on my Bethlehem barracuda for years and have had occasion to develop carbon and have suffered no ill effect. I simple cleaning and they have run just like new and no burn in on the face has ever occurred. I think it is possible that they are a more durable burner due to the simplicity of design. Many of the solid body burners such as Carlisle, Bethlehem, and Nortel are relatively un-effected by reduction atmospheres. Just clean off the carbon and go. I myself just flick it off with my tweezers while the flame is still running.
My GTT Phantom runs a super nice flame due to the ability to refine it so well with the triple mix. The intricacy of the surgical stainless tubes inserted into one another is a brilliant design but it is definitely more fragile then the solid body design of many other torches. Perhaps this intricacy is one of the reasons it is susceptible to failure from carbon build up. I for one would not run my Phantom under the same stresses of reduction flames that my Barracuda is capable of, but then again it is not capable of the same heat intensity and flame control of the Phantom so when that’s important I am on the Phantom

Whether intentional or not the free cleaning by GTT has become a selling point. I know that I was under this assumption that this was the case when I purchased mine. It is too bad that GTT is unwilling to continue with a customer service policy that has given them so much good publicity. I myself have never had a bench burner that needed to be professionally cleaned. All my solid body bench burners have had a simple straight forward cleaning process that worked well and as far as I can tell is the same one that GTT advises, brush off the face and ream out the ports with the properly sized wires. I was pre-warned when I bought my GTT Phantom that it was susceptible to carbon build up and that some flame types may actually damage the torch. I have consciously avoided using strong reduction flames as well as the short pinpoint flame that I use on the barracuda for my stringer work. I have been told that this flame can actually melt the tubes or ports in my Phantom, which is fine because the Phantom is incapable of reproducing the pinpoint flame of the Barracuda anyway.

As I am using both of these wonderful torches daily I am finding that they both have strengths and weaknesses. I am learning from this and utilizing the strengths of both. This is what we do as artist, solve the problems the creative process throws in our way with the most efficient process or tool to accomplish the task.

Trey Cornette · #71 2009-03-20, 1:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hels
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Trey.... what is the difference in the tubing that allows other brands to run reduced and not clog, but clogs a GTT? Is it because the tubes are smaller on a GTT to get the hotter flame? Thanks
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.

I am no expert on GTT burners, I have only used one professionally for 5 months. I am sure Kim can add to this or correct me if I am wrong.
Here goes. GTT is the only burner I know of that has its gas port inside its oxygen port and in the triple mix it has another oxygen port inside the propane port. A tube within a tube within a tube. They are very small and fit closely together. You can only get a cleaning wire down the center port so if any of the outer ports become clogged you must send it in for servicing.

Bethlehem and many other companies use seperate ports for the oxygen and propane. You always have the ability to get a wire down every port.

pam · #72 2009-03-20, 2:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trey Cornette
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Pam I must respectfully disagree with you that a bench burner that is building up carbon is being run improperly. While this is true with the GTT burners many other brands have no problems handling carbon build up and require only a proper cleaning afterward. This may not be the most efficient flame but sometimes it is what's required to achieve certain effects. The only company that I am aware of that actually warns its customers not to use this type of flame or risk torch damage is GTT. I follow their advice with my Phantom and use my Bethlehem Barracuda when I need to run a flame chemistry that GTT warns me away from.

Okay, so, Trey, I must respectfully disagree with you. lol I run a reduction flame on my GTT quite often and never have carbon build up. In fact, in the three or four years I have owned my current Cheetah, I have never even bothered to clean it (Kimberly, you didn't hear that) and I have no carbon at all. When I make my boro stands, I cover the pieces in carbon before I set them aside to cool, so I can finish them up once they are cooled and then anneal them. I use all sorts of reduction flames with the glasses I use and have never had a problem. And actually, I talked to Willy about this when I first bought the torch and he said there is no problem with running a reduction flame for a short period of time as long as the normal/proper flame is used most of the time. Honestly, I have never had a problem with my Cheetah.

On the other hand, I used to have carbon buildup on my PM2D and would just knock it off. It was no big deal. However, I did clean it constantly as the ports plugged up with carbon. I do honestly believe that any time you build up carbon the torch is being improperly run. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that it will damage the torch, just that the most efficient and proper flame setting is not being used. You as the artist have to decide the flame that you want for a certain effect. You may want to use an improper flame in order to get the result you want. I do this often, but just because I choose to run this flame, doesn't mean that it is the proper flame to run for the torch.

Maybe we are talking semantics here!

Kris Schaible · #73 2009-03-20, 2:27pm

Ok here I go was trying to keep quite and let this go, but Pam I agree I run what I call a "Dragon Breath" on mine for getting a very strong reduction flame fo both Boro ( say silver finish on Blue moon) and soft glass(say for Taxco silver finish). I turn the O2 off and then the fuel up so that there is a gap about 1 inch from the face of the torch when I get the desired result( 20 seconds to a minute perhaps) I turn the fuel down and the O2 back on. I do this on the Bobcat, Cricket and Lynx. I currently have a regailla,devilbliss, bottled o2 and Liquid O2. No problems,no carbon.I have made 2" boro marbles,long tube beads over 4 inches and tiny tiny goddesses about 1/2", I guess what I am saying is that the torches are very versital. why each artist would have a diffferent result with the torch is personal, but It sort of is like a painter blaming the paint brush.

Anyhow, Kim thanks for all the great and very accurate information. As we already you know you either love them or hate them. I choose to outfit the studio with them because I feel they are the best for many applications,Boro,soft, big work,tiny detailed work.

Ok Ok I am going back out to torch. As far as a Phantom for detail it has the Lynx in the middle so it can be turned down to a tiny pinpoint flame, this is my next torch. I just want it, don't need it for working larger just need it!
Opinions are a dime a dozen we all have one.

Kim thanks again for the info.
I say GTT ROcks

Tanner Studios · #74 2009-03-20, 2:30pm

Trey, you have some misinformation about the Phantom. First you can run a strong reduction flame without problems. As with all burners a reduction flame will cause carbon to build up. I use a lot of reduction when I work and have never had any build up in the year and a half using my phantom. However I do clean it once a month if it needs it or not.

There is only two flames that are not recommended by GTT. First, candles shorter then a quarter inch , or a large hot flame with short propane rich candles. This flame has a tell tail of red edges on the outside of the flame and happens when both stages are in use.

As far as the needle point goes Try running only the center Oxy value without the outer value. I think you will find that there is no finer pin point on the market.

As far as the free cleaning. I have bought two lynx and a phantom and never was told it came with free cleaning nor have I seen any warranties expressed by GTT in any of their sales literature. It has only been expressed here by customers so delighted with getting a free cleaning. I don't think it's right to jump on Willy and Wally if it has become impossible to continue their former generosity.

Scott

Trey Cornette · #75 2009-03-20, 3:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pam
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Okay, so, Trey, I must respectfully disagree with you. lol I run a reduction flame on my GTT quite often and never have carbon build up. In fact, in the three or four years I have owned my current Cheetah, I have never even bothered to clean it (Kimberly, you didn't hear that) and I have no carbon at all. When I make my boro stands, I cover the pieces in carbon before I set them aside to cool, so I can finish them up once they are cooled and then anneal them. I use all sorts of reduction flames with the glasses I use and have never had a problem. And actually, I talked to Willy about this when I first bought the torch and he said there is no problem with running a reduction flame for a short period of time as long as the normal/proper flame is used most of the time. Honestly, I have never had a problem with my Cheetah.

On the other hand, I used to have carbon buildup on my PM2D and would just knock it off. It was no big deal. However, I did clean it constantly as the ports plugged up with carbon. I do honestly believe that any time you build up carbon the torch is being improperly run. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that it will damage the torch, just that the most efficient and proper flame setting is not being used. You as the artist have to decide the flame that you want for a certain effect. You may want to use an improper flame in order to get the result you want. I do this often, but just because I choose to run this flame, doesn't mean that it is the proper flame to run for the torch.

Maybe we are talking semantics here!

Pam, You are correct. On a GTT burner carbon build up is the sign of improper flame chemistry . On many other burners it is just a fact of life. I think we are tied up with semantics here. The use of the word proper. I use the word to describe the best flame to achieve certain effects and there are many proper flames for me. You seem to use it to describe the most efficient flame chemistry with all others being improper.
I have a problem with defining one flame as the right one and all the others wrong. I see all to many times students who are afraid to adjust the flames of their burners because their first teacher told them this is the right flame and all others will ruin your burner. This is just not true. I see people afraid to run a tiny flame on a minor because GTT says not to run them on their burners. They don't understand that GTT burners are completely different than any other torch and the rules for them are not across the board for all other burners. You should see the look in their eyes when I show them stringer work on a tiny flame and the see how much easier it is!
I just feel that defining something as the only proper flame setting confuses and scares some people away from exploring the full capacity of their burners and the last thing I want is for my students to stop exploring the possibilities.

Hels · #76 2009-03-20, 3:42pm

Well, I've learned a lot from this discussion, which is all good
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.

I love my Phantom too, and I just need to run the outer fire more to get the flames to even up again. I bought mine used, and the candles were wacked, inner and outer.

In time, my inner fire worked itself even again (because I RAGE my torch. I use it at 1 speed, and rather than playing with knobs, I usually move my piece around the flame... just force of habit). I just don't use the outer as much as the inner alone, so that didn't fix itself. NOW I know why it didn't (thanks Kimberly
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).

I can see why people like the other torches.... but NOTHING else gets as hot as GTT, and I guess some people just like things hotter
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.

Thanks for the response Trey
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. I would still like to get a minor someday for soft glass beads, just so I can set them up and have the same position for the sweet spot in the flame for each type of glass
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pam · #77 2009-03-20, 3:42pm

And you are right, Trey, it is semantics. To me the proper flame for any torch is the one that is the perfectly balanced flame. All others are improper, but perfectly useable. That's fine. Now I understand you better.

kbinkster · #78 2009-03-20, 4:00pm

*Original post removed by author*

I'm sorry, but I am no longer providing free customer service for GTT, nor am I doing any more favors for them or defending them or their reputation.

Wally will not acknowledge that I have been of any help. Oddly, he says that I should be providing customer service for free and without any compensation or thanks because I am Willy's wife. Of course, neither of the two girlfriends he has had that worked for GTT have ever worked for free. Oh, he made a rule about no GFs or wives working at GTT in order to keep me out of the company. His rules did not apply to anyone he bedded down.

Please direct your questions to:

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570-835-9777

Trey Cornette · #79 2009-03-20, 4:06pm

Hey Scott
My flame is smaller that yours!
I'll put it up to a ruler, take a picture and show you if you like
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Don't get me wrong I love my Phantom and have 5 months of professional practice on it backed by 10 years of lamp work experience, 7 as a full time professional. I have had no carbon build up at all. It's a great torch. It is a fragile machine though. If it's ports get clogged I am in trouble. If I run a certain flame I'll melt the ports together and into the shop it goes. If I dropped it I would probably mess it up good. When I need flames like that I run my my barracuda instead. It can take the abuse. I could drop kick my Barracuda and it would be fine. It has traveled all over the country with me and been used by many students!
You see I have the best of both world and work with both burners side by side daily.
In this size class I will say this
For Boro work GTT Phantom is the best.
For soft glass the Bethlehem Barracuda is the best.
Of coarse this is only my opinion and I also reserve the right to contradict myself at any time.
No one is jumping on the company but many people have bought these burners with an assumed idea that cleaning was free and it has been. I have even overheard a rep say this. It is unfortunate that that assumption is wrong and that the free cleanings are not longer available. It sure was good PR for GTT.

I am off to melt some glass.
On the list tonight.
Boro implosions on the Phantom and Some extra large scroll work beads on the Cuda.
Peace out!!

Rebekah · #80 2009-03-20, 4:21pm

I'm SO not picking on you because you know I love you Bink, but "heat is the worst enemy of a torch" cracked me up. I know it's true and stuff, but it's still hilarious.

kbinkster · #81 2009-03-20, 4:28pm

*Original post removed by author*

I'm sorry, but I am no longer providing free customer service for GTT, nor am I doing any more favors for them or defending them or their reputation.

Wally will not acknowledge that I have been of any help. Oddly, he says that I should be providing customer service for free and without any compensation or thanks because I am Willy's wife. Of course, neither of the two girlfriends he has had that worked for GTT have ever worked for free. Oh, he made a rule about no GFs or wives working at GTT in order to keep me out of the company. His rules did not apply to anyone he bedded down.

Please direct your questions to:

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570-835-9777

KEW · #82 2009-03-20, 4:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanner Studios
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As far as the free cleaning. I have bought two lynx and a phantom and never was told it came with free cleaning nor have I seen any warranties expressed by GTT in any of their sales literature. It has only been expressed here by customers so delighted with getting a free cleaning. I don't think it's right to jump on Willy and Wally if it has become impossible to continue their former generosity.

Scott

I bought my Lynx in 2000 and it was over a year later before people started posting on various forums about 'free cleanings' and most of those people had VERY uneven candles. It was a gracious gesture on the part of GTT to make everyone who owned one of their torches happy. But the prices of torches have not gone up as much as most of the supplies they need to make the torches and it was inevitable that 'free cleanings' would have to come to an end. Which would you rather pay - more $$ for the torch to begin with or $50 for a cleaning that you may never need?

On the carbon buildup, the only time I had the problem was when I first got the torch and my OGSI- 15. It was my fiirst time using a 2-gas torch, and I got some bad advice on what settings to run my generator. I upped the pressure a little (experimentation) and I haven't needed to clean the torch since. (I have cleaned it, but I haven't had any carbon buildup, reducing flame or not. The cleaning is just a symbolic gesture. lol )

Oh, one other thing. After much discussion (I think it was on the ISGB forum) some years ago, many of us determined that the 'ideal' candle length varies with your individual torch and your individual style of working. This requires experimentation. If you make sure the torch is clean when you start your next 'experiment' on settings, you can figure out what is causing the carbon.

PaulaD · #83 2009-03-20, 4:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trey Cornette
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I have been told that this flame can actually melt the tubes or ports in my Phantom, which is fine because the Phantom is incapable of reproducing the pinpoint flame of the Barracuda anyway.

Trey the"pinpoint"on a Barracuda does not come any where near the "pinpoint" on a Phantom. The Phantom gets one much smaller than the Cuda. When you see Loren at the Gathering ask him to show you how to get it.

Paula

Trey Cornette · #84 2009-03-20, 4:47pm

Thank you Kim. I stand corrected. Bethlehem also warns of carbon build up.

I think we are all on the same page here. Carbon build up is bad but sometimes necessary in order to achieve the effects we want.

I believe the tools we use in our creations are at our disposal for all their possibilities. Some are harder on them then others. These tools are not permanent fixtures in our artistic careers. They will show wear due to our demands and have a finite life. We do our best to take care of them but they will wear out eventually. Some quicker then others.
Please don't stop pushing your tools and yourselves to their limits just because you are afraid to cause wear on your tool.
As a sculptor friend of mine once told me, "You have to dent a few chisels to carve a stone."

kbinkster · #85 2009-03-20, 5:00pm

*Original post removed by author*

I'm sorry, but I am no longer providing free customer service for GTT, nor am I doing any more favors for them or defending them or their reputation.

Wally will not acknowledge that I have been of any help. Oddly, he says that I should be providing customer service for free and without any compensation or thanks because I am Willy's wife. Of course, neither of the two girlfriends he has had that worked for GTT have ever worked for free. Oh, he made a rule about no GFs or wives working at GTT in order to keep me out of the company. His rules did not apply to anyone he bedded down.

Please direct your questions to:

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570-835-9777

kbinkster · #86 2009-03-20, 5:05pm

*Original post removed by author*

I'm sorry, but I am no longer providing free customer service for GTT, nor am I doing any more favors for them or defending them or their reputation.

Wally will not acknowledge that I have been of any help. Oddly, he says that I should be providing customer service for free and without any compensation or thanks because I am Willy's wife. Of course, neither of the two girlfriends he has had that worked for GTT have ever worked for free. Oh, he made a rule about no GFs or wives working at GTT in order to keep me out of the company. His rules did not apply to anyone he bedded down.

Please direct your questions to:

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570-835-9777

Trey Cornette · #87 2009-03-20, 5:08pm

A picture is worth a thousand words.

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Somebody show it to me on the phantom.

kbinkster · #88 2009-03-20, 5:11pm

I'll have to find a picture for you.
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Trey Cornette · #89 2009-03-20, 5:25pm

Please do and tell me how to do it. The only way I have come close is to use a lot of blue valve and I always get to much push from the flame and it actually blows the very fine soft glass stingers I use away from their intended path. Its to hot and to strong. The flame from the cuda is extremely soft.

By the way nice dissection up there. The information GTT puts out and what I hear out here is sometimes very different. I have been corrected several times when playing on other people's GTT burners "No man!! you can't do that . You'll burn it up!"
I am a big believer in GTT technology. I just wish they would apply their genius into developing a 2 stage torch specifically for soft glass.

Kris Schaible · #90 2009-03-20, 5:37pm

grabbing the camera and runnning to the studio!