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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2011-09-24, 1:03pm
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Jacqueline Parkes
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Join Date: Nov 04, 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,497
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Reichenbach Glass & Pitting
I have not come across this issue personally but I have heard from others they do experience pitting with Reichenbach glass. My instincts tell me they are working too hot. I suspect there is more to it though as I have heard mixed answers concerning this problem.
Can we start a dialogue on this please.
Also, which is hotter, an oxygenated flame or a reducing flame?
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2011-09-24, 1:13pm
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Flaming Redhead!
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Join Date: Jul 18, 2006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 573
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The oxidizing flame will be the hotter one...
The times I've gotten pitting with Reichenbach were the times I was working it too hot. Once I turned the flame down, worked farther out in the flame, and took my time it was fine...no pitting or boiling.
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2011-09-24, 1:40pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 23, 2009
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 620
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Hey, I want to talk about this!
Reichenbach glass has presented a big problem for me! I am aware of the keeping cool, melting slowly, high in the flame, deal. But that doesn't solve the problem. Reichenbach glass and frit seem to have a tendency to pitt. I have actually found that I had less problems with an oxygenated flame.
And that leads to the question about whether an oxygen or a reducing flame is hotter..... It seems to be generally stated that an oxygen flame is hotter. I don't know, when I add some fuel (reducing) into the mix(but still keeping it in the normal range), things seem to get hotter and melt the glass quicker.
I have seen many threads with people having this issue. One thread had the solution to work Reich hotter. That sure didn't work for me. The other threads mostly said to work cooler. Hhhmmmm...is there more to it than that?
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2011-09-24, 2:06pm
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Glass Hive Kiln Tech.
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2007
Location: Toledo, OR
Posts: 907
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Furnace glass (which is what Reichenbach is formulated for) is a difficult animal in the torch. While I can work it for hours in the glory hole, (a soft heat environment), in the torch it is being beaten up by the force of the flame not so much the heat.
Well the hottest flame is the neutral flame. It is complete combustion. Adding more propane is cooler, adding more oxy is also cooler. Lowering the propane lowers its maximum btu's (British thermal units, heat rating), raising the oxy past the neutral flame also lowers the btu's. You are also increasing the force of the flame when you raise the oxy. Rather than thinking of cooler and hotter as something to manipulate through the knobs, move out in the neutral flame farther. Think -s l o w- heat. Certain colors can be made easier to deal with by changing the atmosphere but that is more a case of reduction issues not so much the pitting.
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2011-09-24, 2:15pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 23, 2009
Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Holy Cow Pam, you just blew my mind!!
What you said was so interesting! Does that make me a lampwork nerd?
I have never heard the explanation of flame heat put in those terms before.
Hhhhmmm, this may lead to some new conclusions about how to solve the Reich issues.
Jeannie
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Be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars. In the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. (Max Ehrmann)
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2011-09-24, 2:25pm
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Jacqueline Parkes
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Join Date: Nov 04, 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,497
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Amazing information Pam, thank you!
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2011-09-24, 2:37pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 23, 2009
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OK, I have been sitting here staring at my screen and thinking.....
So, I know what a neutral flame is, and that is what I have been using in some attempts to try and melt Reich unsuccessfully. And yes, slow and way out in the flame. But I am still beating up the Reich in the flame somehow.
So, either my neutral flame has too much velocity to it (maybe a smaller neutral flame is needed?) or it would make sense to go slightly reducing? but that is when the Reich frits with pink in them look a little devitrified.
Sorry, I am just thinking out loud to give you a feel for my thought process, so you can jump in at any time and tell me where I am going wrong.
I think the conclusion would be to use a small neutral flame with less velocity. You can get cooler with oxygenated, but end up with more velocity (bad), or you can get cooler with reduction and less velocity, but end up with nasty devitrification. (bad)
Does my rambling make sense to anyone but me? "Save the cheerleader, save the world" Ha, you have to watch "Heroes" to know what I'm talking about.
Anyway, thank you Pam, that will be my next thing to try.
Jeannie
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Be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars. In the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. (Max Ehrmann)
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2011-09-24, 4:18pm
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Glass Hive Kiln Tech.
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2007
Location: Toledo, OR
Posts: 907
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When I am torching glass on the hot floor I am using a Carlisle Wildcat. Same thing I used on 104. I turn the torch WAY down and use a high oxy flame. I still have to let the heat in a little at a time if I want a totally scum free surface in the end. I will heat the spot, wait a sec or two, and continue heating. I can't just heat for an indefinite period of time like I can with 104. I can bring my work closer to the torch face when the velocity is lowered by the over reducing of flame size.
With a furnace work the flame velocity is much lower. We use a very hot, but soft flame in the glory hole. No added oxygen, just a blower that adds air. The difference in flame chemistry and velocity seem to me to be what causes the pitting issues.
There are many folks here that use it regularly in the torch that can be of more practical help on the how to fix it front. I am just working on the why. I am not patient enough to do more than random torching in 96.
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2011-09-24, 4:48pm
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Jacqueline Parkes
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Join Date: Nov 04, 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 4,497
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I am on a Carlisle Mini CC , oxygen concentrator and propane in a barbeque tank and I do nothing special to avoid pitting. I just does not happen, weird and I would love to understand why.
On Monday I am going to actually try to get it to pitt to get a better understanding. Basically I am going to heat the crap out of it
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2011-09-24, 5:03pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 23, 2009
Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Hi Pam,
So are you saying that for you a small oxy flame works best? Do you have any theory on why a small oxy over a small neutral would be better? The benefits of the coolness of the oxy flame outweighs the negative of the velocity of it, as compared to the small neutral?
I can feel all of the eyes rolling at me, picking this apart ....but this has been an issue I have struggled with for years. And I have been wanting to scientifically break down the problem, figure out what flame would be the most appropriate, and try to make this work for me next time I torch.
I appreciate you taking the time to post! You have been very informative.
Thank you,
Jeannie
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Be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars. In the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. (Max Ehrmann)
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2011-09-24, 6:15pm
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Lampworkaholic!
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Join Date: Apr 22, 2008
Location: Cornelius, NC - because weather
Posts: 5,158
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I also don't have pitting problems with Reichenbach, except for a weird batch of black that goes matte and dull and a little boiling and fussiness with Copper Blue. I'm on a Scorpion with a Regalia and I like to work hot.
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"And all will turn to silver glass, a light on the water, grey ships pass into the west." Annie Lennox
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2011-09-24, 6:55pm
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Meet Molly
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Join Date: Feb 01, 2007
Location: Pensacola, FL.
Posts: 178
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I recently read that a reducing flame is the hotter flame. If I kept a copy of this info in my files I'll jot down the web URL for you.
I've been confused about which is the hotter flame, reducing vs oxidizing- this cleared it for me. I remember that the size of the flame also determined heat (which of course makes good sense). Thus, a bushy flame is a hotter flame.
I haven't worked with Reichenbach glass so I can't offer an opinion here.
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2011-09-24, 8:54pm
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Formerly FishBulb
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Join Date: Dec 05, 2008
Location: Pony Flower Princess Land
Posts: 2,772
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The only Reichenbach glass that pits on me is the black, both 96 and 104. Otherwise I love the stuff.
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2011-09-24, 10:12pm
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I'm a lilac!
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Join Date: Jun 09, 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,793
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I use Reichenbach all the time and have a few specific colors that boil or pit on me easily... I usually work hot and fast, but with those colors, I really baby them far out in a soft neutral flame (both oxy and propane turned down).
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2011-09-25, 8:15am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnamon
I recently read that a reducing flame is the hotter flame. If I kept a copy of this info in my files I'll jot down the web URL for you.
I've been confused about which is the hotter flame, reducing vs oxidizing- this cleared it for me. I remember that the size of the flame also determined heat (which of course makes good sense). Thus, a bushy flame is a hotter flame.
I haven't worked with Reichenbach glass so I can't offer an opinion here.
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Pam's post is right on about flame chemistry. Your post, though, is really an over simplification since the type of torch, the location in the flame, oxygen purity, torch settings, and a host of other factors all make a difference in temp as well.
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2011-09-25, 9:29am
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Glass Hive Kiln Tech.
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Join Date: Jun 23, 2007
Location: Toledo, OR
Posts: 907
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Bandu has a great book, Contemporary Lampworking vol 1&2, that deals with flame chemistry. It may be a good read to to a real sense of understanding about how the regions of the flame work and can be adjusted. That is where I began my search when questions like this began in my mind.
I am a horrific "why" person. The fact that something works is hardly the point to me, I must know why. Mike Crowley is the most patient man on the planet He puts up with it.
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It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
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2011-09-25, 10:33am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 07, 2011
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PittsGlass
I am a horrific "why" person. The fact that something works is hardly the point to me, I must know why. Mike Crowley is the most patient man on the planet He puts up with it.
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I think a thorough understanding of the materials as well as the tools is what separates the really great from the average.
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