Metal Sheet Necessary in front of torch? or no

Seasoned Soul · #1 2010-01-01, 11:00pm

Okay so the Title might not be clear..LOL

Do I really need a sheet of metal on the facing wall, in front of the torch? I know it's there for heat reasons but at what distance is it not necessary?

thanks

Dale M. · #2 2010-01-02, 8:19am

Sheet metal is not necessary, may be a good idea though ... Or maybe even some tile backer (concrete) board...... IF torch is 24-30 inches from wall and wall does not get hot to touch it should be ok....

If you put sheet metal or cement backer board up on wall, do it in such a way there is a little air space between it and wall so there is some cool air convention between metal/backer board and wall....

Dale

Sherri*S · #3 2010-01-02, 8:36am

I was glad go see this question, because I was a about to post the same thing.!

If I can ask a followup question, Dale, We're constructing my workbench, building it into a closet. Right now, the bench is right up against the wall and is 24" deep. We were thinking of putting a metal sheet on the wall with some insulation behind it. I've got a Cricket torch, but I'm not sure exactly how much closer the flame will be to the wall assuming we mount it right at the edge.

Should we we be thinking of adding on to the front of the bench to bring the torch further away from the wall (not ideal, although is definitely doable if needed)

And in any case, which would be better--mounting the metal with space behind it, or using some insulation?

Thanks!

Dale M. · #4 2010-01-02, 9:33am

A closet?...... Hope its big so you do not get claustrophobic and has good ventilation...

Even with insulation I would consider a little space for air flow.... This means keeping bottom of sheet metal or backer board up of the surface of bench a little bit and not 'compressing" insulation to much or sealing off top space between sheet metal and wall....

Also for moving torch back..... IF YOU FIND wall getting to warm you could simply get a piece of plywood and move torch back some (sort of like in a "Creation Station")...

Also I would consider concrete backer board, it transfers heat less than sheet metal....

Actually air is a poor conductor of heat so unless flame is pretty close to wall there is probably not going to be a real heat issue

Dale

AcidFly · #5 2010-01-02, 9:53am

I'm just under 3 feet from the wall and i used the silver foam board on the wall its suppose to be fire resistant but it never gets that hot to worry about it. I found that with my torch pointed at the up angle and my vent being a rectangle duct that's about 1 and a half feet from the flame that most of the heat hits right at the duct. What i did was put my torch were i wanted it and turned it up almost full and then took my hand and held it up around the bench and found the hot spots and it worked out it was to hot to hold my hand at about 2 feet and about a 45 % angle up so that's were i put my vent so it will suck out most of the heat.
I will try and post a picture as i just made a new bench top from black granite i got from home depot for 5.49 a 12"x12" pieces.
Also I got some of those stick on thermometers that I'm going to stick on the wall so i can always tell if for some reason its getting to hot

AcidFly

Sherri*S · #6 2010-01-02, 10:57am

Thank you very much, Dale. Yeah, I won't actually be inside the closet--we took the doors off the closet and built the workbench into the closet; my chair will actually be outside the closet. Its quite a roomy bench going lengthwise;i'm just worried about the wall, but will take your recommendation, leaving some space and seeing how hot it gets.

As for concrete backer board, is that the stuff that would go behind a shower? This is probably a stupid question, but we have some 1/2" particle board left over from what I was using in the old setup to protect the carpet-- could that be used instead of the concrete backer? According to my husband, you can only buy backer board in large sheets. I'd rather err on the side of overdoing heat protection but DH is hesitant about a huge sheet of it if we could use something else. Will using the backer board give us enough additional protection to warrant DH whining about how heavy it is? (lol)

Ventilation will go through the ceiling closet and out the roof. Havent worked out the design yet, we were thinking about modifying a range hood to provide adequate exhaust.... but I just wandered over to AGA and saw that box setup that Bill designed... would that work with our plans of ventilating through the roof as well? That looks like a much easier way to go.

Appreciate your advice, Dale.

Sherri*S · #7 2010-01-02, 11:00am

Would love to see pics, AcidFly.... your setup sounds really nice. That granite sounds like a great deal... We were going to use some sheet metal for covering but your idea sounds so much better.... I never thought of doing that.

Seasoned Soul · #8 2010-01-02, 11:13am

Thanks for the quick answer Dale and AcidFly!! I hope you know how wonderful it is to be able to ask a question while in the throes of assembly, get a quick detailed answer and then put that wisdom/answer into place. I would have never attempted building a lampworking studio without all of you. Thanks again!!

adot45 · #9 2010-01-02, 11:36am

Hello,
My "bead station" is compact and very closet like too. The rear wall is 21" from the barrel of the torch. I bought a stove board and mounted it on the wall. It makes me feel better about it and I've always been able to put my hand on it after a turn. The stove board was from Lowe's and are the pads that people put under wood stoves, pellet stoves. Here is a product link at Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...tt=stove+board

The boards are a fireproof material of some sort, clad in metal. Just my .02

Dale M. · #10 2010-01-02, 11:58am

Concrete backer board (hardi board - usually the stuff behind tile in shower) is typically 3 ft X 5 ft... Also makes good bench tops.....

Dale

NMLinda · #11 2010-01-02, 3:34pm

Concrete backer board is pretty easy to cut to fit. They sell a special cutter tool, but any utility knife except the really small thin ones will score it just fine. I score it deep enough to cut through the fiberglass threads and then break it over a workbench edge or even by hand. Breaks nicely along the score line. As Dale says, whatever you don't use behind your torch is great for your workbench surface. I have concrete backer board and sheet metal behind my torch and on my workbench.

I would be concerned about using the foil backed foam board. If a piece of hot glass spits off a rod and hits it, it can easily melt. Under enough heat, it can release some nasty fumes. Angling the flame away from the wall is a good idea, though.

Linda

AcidFly · #12 2010-01-02, 6:41pm

Ok now don't look at the mess or how unsafe something is as i have been down for a couple days and have everything everywhere

but i think the bench will be worth the time and effort. The vent has to be extended some but i haven't got the far yet. I will post the finished project when I'm done

The new bench is 3 feet deep and 4 feet wide as i didn't want to have to cut that much granite. But I did use my dermal and carved out a hole for my torch base and then cut the granite out so all you see is the arm going into the granite. The reason i did it was to get the torch lower and as i used 2 layers of 3/4 chip board I just cut the hole though 1 sheet and mounted it to the bottom sheet. Was it worth 2 hours of messing around well not sure yet as i still need to make elbow rests and stuff.

AcidFly

AcidFly · #13 2010-01-04, 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMLinda

I would be concerned about using the foil backed foam board. If a piece of hot glass spits off a rod and hits it, it can easily melt. Under enough heat, it can release some nasty fumes. Angling the flame away from the wall is a good idea, though.

Linda

Ok well she is Right

I never gave it a thought as i have used the stuff from the start and just went by what i was told that it didn't burn. Well i did a couple tests and well as i don't think a piece of glass would fly 3 feet and stick into it BUT the stuff does melt and puts off that black sting type smoke you can just see it would kill ya LOL So I'm going to swap it out as its unsafe even tho I have never had a problem with it.
I'm Thinking not with cement board up in the window, its heavy and well its cement but It might be the only good way to go. I will do some research next couple days and see whats out there that's fire proof, Light, easy to work with and at a price that's not going to make it a big deal "not cheap but low priced" like one of those fireplace things adot45 linked.
Maybe a 1/4 underlayment with some cheap tiles on it.

AcidFly

NMLinda · #14 2010-01-05, 6:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcidFly

So I'm going to swap it out as its unsafe even tho I have never had a problem with it.
I'm Thinking not with cement board up in the window, its heavy and well its cement but It might be the only good way to go. I will do some research next couple days and see whats out there that's fire proof, Light, easy to work with and at a price that's not going to make it a big deal "not cheap but low priced" like one of those fireplace things adot45 linked.
Maybe a 1/4 underlayment with some cheap tiles on it.

AcidFly

The cement board used as a backer for tile comes in two thicknesses. I used the thinner stuff for my benches (think it's 1/4 inch as opposed to half inch). Either thickness comes in 3'x5' sheets, so the thinner stuff isn't too heavy to work with. Once cut, you may not find it bad at all. It's easy to put up with dry-wall screws - don't need to drill pilot holes. It's also relatively inexpensive. All you really need is the cement board, but if you've got some of that gorgeous tile left over from your countertop, you'll have that much more heat protection and have a stunning bench to work on.

Linda

NMLinda · #15 2010-01-05, 6:53am

Sorry for the multiple posts - you could probably just cut the cement board to snug-fit the window and not even have to screw it into place. You could even just place it over the foam board you have in the window now. Looks like the sill might be deep enough to let you do that. It would be easy to take it out later if you wanted to. Just another thought

Linda

AcidFly · #16 2010-01-05, 2:36pm

Cool Thanks Ok well went to lowes today and found out the cement board around here has a paper cover on it like drywall does and also found out cement is a conductor of heat so The contractor guy said if i was going to use it for a heat shield i should put 1 inch stand offs between the wall and the board and put some kind of tile on it like you said.

Now he thought of another Idea and since i was covering a window he sold me what they call Hardie Backer board that is also cement but it was like pressed in a machine and is about 1/4 thick with no paper covering and 1 side is smooth and the other has squares imprinted on it for tile layout and I wont have to use tile on it. He did also say if i was going to put it on a wall and not in front of a window that i should use the stand offs like they use for peg board because again the board is spark and high fire proof but it is cement and cement is a heat conductor and could still get the wall hot.

So i went with the hardie backer board and like you said I think I'm going to try and cut it to fit right over the foam board to try and not make a big cold cement wall in front of the bench.

AcidFly

Dale M. · #17 2010-01-05, 4:00pm

I don't know what "cement board" you found with a paper covering but all the cement board I have ever seem is not covered with paper .........

Dale

AcidFly · #18 2010-01-05, 10:58pm

Here is what I got :
http://www.jameshardie.com/dealer/pr...rterInch.shtml and its working good

AcidFly

Thanks again
AcidFly

ammaws · #19 2010-01-06, 12:29pm

Sherri,
I also put my torching station in a closet. I used the concrete board for the back of the wall. It never gets hot. I made sure I had good ventilation and we put an appropriate exhaust fan in closet ceiling and vented it directly to the outside. For me this was a very effecient use of the space. Good luck!!

AcidFly · #20 2010-01-06, 1:30pm

Here I went back today and took a picture and I had 3 guys
1, lumber yard guy for 20 years
2, Retired contractor
3, Young kid
and they all thought it was some type of paper cover, maybe a paper or fiber soaked in cement but you judge.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/up...?viewid=189366

just as long as people know and SEE what they have to work with. That is the only reason I posted.

Sorry all for the misunderstanding.

AcidFly

NMLinda · #21 2010-01-06, 2:02pm

The picture you posted, above, looks like typical cement backer board (as opposed to hardibacker) to me. I've used it extensively for tilework. As I understand it, it's cement mixed in a waterproof matrix with kind of an open-weave fiberglass mesh on top and bottom. To be able to scribe and break it to shape, I've always had to cut through the fiberglass strands on both top and bottom. I guess it must depend on how wet the slurry was when a given sheet was poured - sometimes the sheets I've bought have had rough surfaces where you can see the gravelly grain of the impregnated cement, but sometimes they can be very smooth like the the ones in the photo. If they're very smooth, I guess I can see why folks might think there's a paper coating on it. It's often sold with a 2"-3" wide paper label strip down the center of the board, which I always tear off.

I had a builder tell me that hardibacker, by contrast, is compressed paper mixed in a similar waterproof matrix. Good for tile, but based on what he said, I prefer concrete board for lampworking because I'm not certain how fireproof hardibacker is by itself.

Please keep in the mix with us, AcidFly. We all learn from each other, and your experiences are valuable, too.

Linda

AcidFly · #22 2010-01-06, 2:19pm

Yes the picture was of common backer board. I went with the hardibecker from my other post. Just want to show you guys what i was looking at.
I went with the hardi because of the info i had and it was a lot lighter and real easy to score and snap and even made a cutout for my vent with my jig saw.
This is what i went by when i picked the hardi :

Non-Combustibility
HardieBacker® cement board is recognized for use in non-combustible construction in NER-405.

Surface Burning Characteristics
When tested in accordance with ASTM test method E-84:
Flame Spread 0
Fuel Contributed 0
Smoke Developed 5

AcidFly

NMLinda · #23 2010-01-07, 5:23am

Thanks for the info on the HardiBacker flame resistance characteristics. Good to know

Linda

pinkcloud2 · #24 2010-01-10, 11:58am

Hi, I'm in the middle of redoing my studio as well. I did not want a reflective surface in the back round. I was looking into using matt porcelain tile. Do you think that would be okay?
Thanks,
Alicia

AcidFly · #25 2010-01-10, 12:31pm

this is the hardi board after i painted it

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/up...?viewid=189720

its a mess because i was still working on the bench and just had stuff stacked on it trying to figure out a arangement and what else i still need to make

AcidFly

NMLinda · #26 2010-01-10, 3:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkcloud2

Hi, I'm in the middle of redoing my studio as well. I did not want a reflective surface in the back round. I was looking into using matt porcelain tile. Do you think that would be okay?
Thanks,
Alicia

Matt tile would work fine. Porcelain or ceramic tile are both great insulators.

Linda

clan tabby · #27 2010-01-10, 5:18pm

Hey, AcidFly, whatever happened to that beautiful black granite? It just vanished!!

I remember that whole fiasco about concrete vs hardi-back or whatever. No one at Friedman's was particularly helpful & it took me forEVER wandering around & around to finally find the backer board - the same stuff you ended up getting - for my table top. Wish I'd known about just scoring it. Took a long time, even tired my husband out, cutting that sucker with a pruning saw. Yep, my husband keeps his tools at work, so there's never any tools here. Then we used that same pruning saw to cut the plastic fence rails for storage. After that I had to buy a new one.

pinkcloud2 · #28 2010-01-10, 5:48pm

Thanks Linda,
I keep obsessing about every detail.
Thanks for the confirmation.
ALicia

AcidFly · #29 2010-01-10, 8:23pm

Ya I turned around that day and it was gone lol I think Sherri took it when i was not looking

no i got to much crap on there lol i was trying to see if it would all fit or if i had to make some more stuff lol

AcidFly

cheng076 · #30 2010-01-13, 11:11am

I've used the 1/4" Hardiboard on several benches and I will vouch for it being a. much lighter than cement backer board. b. easier to work with. c. As fire proof as you'll ever need. I routinely drop large boro chunks etc. on mine with no damage other than a brown mark. I even painted my bench surface with heatproof BBQ paint in flat black and don't even see any marks now.
PJ