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Jelveh Designs - Glass Beads Torched One-by-One

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  #1  
Old 2012-10-10, 7:32am
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Default Upgrade torch

Let me start by saying I have read what I feel is the pertinent threads that I could find on the subject. I went threw the entire torch sub forum an am still questioning what is the best torch for me.

I recently picked up a devillbiss oxycon so that would be my oxygen supply. I am seriously considering household gas as a fuel with no booster but propane isn't out of the question. I would probably even start on propane.(stored outside). I have ventilation covered.

I started with a hot head and the primary reason for the torch is to use up scrap from my fusing projects(90 & 96).

I might want to use boro in the future so on the hot side would be ok.

I am leaning towArds a gtt torch but a mini cc or minor is a possibility. I don't think I have enough oxy for a mini in what I have read.

If I go boro I want to play with implosions and maybe small sculptural animals. This might be at the outer limits of my oxy though.

I have nowhere to really try any torch out.

I would probably buy a lynx and be done, but it is out of my price and oxygen range.

Mostly I think that my choices are cricket, bobcat, and minor.

Can anyone offer a little more insight than I read going threw the torch forum?

Money is tight and I would hate to waste by going over what I have in terms of oxygen or not use what I have to the fullest.

Thanks
Chuck
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  #2  
Old 2012-10-10, 7:43am
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I have a Minor and have just started boro after several years of soft glass
The Cricket Bobcat and Minor will work on one 5 lpm oxycon, but the Bobcat and Minor works better on 2-5's or a 10

So you can do boro on a minor Compression Marbles ( I've done up to 1 7/8") and sculptural stuff
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Old 2012-10-10, 7:44am
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I have both Minor and Bobcat and I am working mostly on the Bobcat. I like it a lot. It's quiet and been working perfectly fine for about 8 years now! I think it's a matter of preference as I know that many prefer the minor or the MiniCC.
I did made some Boro florals sculptures and beads on the Bobcat but it takes forever. I didn't try with the minor.


I have a 5lp concentrator and I mostly use only 4lp of O2.
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  #4  
Old 2012-10-10, 8:37am
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For working boro you will be on the low end of the oxy supply in any case. If you want a real torch upgrade consider your oxygen supply first. Although I own a Lynx and a Mirage and love these torches I would not suggest ANY GTT triple mix with your oxycon.

Last edited by LarryC; 2012-10-10 at 8:40am.
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  #5  
Old 2012-10-10, 11:20am
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I think you have narrowed the choices to good ones for the oxygen supply that you have. I think the torch that will run most efficiently on one concentrator is the Cricket. It is designed specifically for use on a concentrator. I ran my Bobcat on one 5lpm concentrator for a few years, and it was just fine for me, but it does run bigger and hotter on more oxygen.

There are tons of people that use all three, Bobcat, Cricket, Minor, on one 5lpm concentrator.
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  #6  
Old 2012-10-10, 2:43pm
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See attachment for the oxygen requirements of some torches.

The Cricket will do boro with one 5 LPM machine. With two better.

A Scorpion will require three 5 LPM machines. Generally the GTT torches are optimized for lower O2 consumption. However, the triple mix torches require up to 35 PSI for best performance which is not in the range of the typical medical concentrator.
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  #7  
Old 2012-10-10, 3:10pm
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I was kind of leaning towards a cricket, but am still considering a bobcat if I ever wanted to add a concentrator.

Can you get a good oxidizing flame with a bobcat and one concentrator? And will it get a pinpoint flame like I hear a cricket will?
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  #8  
Old 2012-10-10, 3:43pm
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my wife was running a mega minor which is the same size as the bobcat, when we both first started I was able to do some boro on it but quickly jumped to the cheetah which I love but it is not oxycon friendly, any way the reason I am chiming un her is my wife recently upgraded to a scorpion which uses the cricket in the center I am very impressed with how it works I and I love all the GTT torches I have ever played with. if you are doing mostly soft glass the cricket will be fine but if you want to do mostly boro then the bobcat will be better if you can give it enough oxygen.
also GTT torches retain resale prices well if you want to sell it to upgrade later
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  #9  
Old 2012-10-10, 7:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rough_necked View Post
I was kind of leaning towards a cricket, but am still considering a bobcat if I ever wanted to add a concentrator.

Can you get a good oxidizing flame with a bobcat and one concentrator? And will it get a pinpoint flame like I hear a cricket will?
its not optimum and may not achieve that. There is no free lunch. The triple mixes really only shine with tanked oxy. Otherwise in my opinion you are wasting the extra money.
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  #10  
Old 2012-12-13, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rough_necked View Post
I was kind of leaning towards a cricket, but am still considering a bobcat if I ever wanted to add a concentrator.

Can you get a good oxidizing flame with a bobcat and one concentrator? And will it get a pinpoint flame like I hear a cricket will?
To answer your question, yes. The Cricket can get a more oxidized flame on 5 LPM, but you can still have an oxidized flame with a Bobcat on 5 LPM and having the room for growth (adding another machine) is good.

Did you decide on a torch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC View Post
its not optimum and may not achieve that. There is no free lunch. The triple mixes really only shine with tanked oxy. Otherwise in my opinion you are wasting the extra money.
The Bobcat is not a triple mix torch. The Bobcat can do quite well on a single 5 LP concentrator and adding a second one or switching to a 10 LPM is even better.

A Lynx can be run on 5 LPM, but does a lot better with 10 LPM. I sometimes run the centerfire of my Phantom (Lynx) with my 10 LPM Integra10 (I use my Regalia more often) and a lot of times I will look over at the flow meter and see that I'm using less than 5 LPM. It all depends on what I'm doing. For making small soft glass beads about an inch or smaller, 5 LPM is good. Because of the triple mix feature, the Lynx has a great flame range (chemistry and size); so I get more versatility from it even when on 5 LPM.
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  #11  
Old 2012-12-13, 3:19pm
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I'm in the process of upgrading my torch too

I currently have a Cricket and three devilbiss 5l/min oxycons and Im thinking about upgrading to a Scorpion or a Lynx
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  #12  
Old 2012-12-13, 5:27pm
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I bought a cricket. It does pretty much what I wanted it to. I can make tube and rod implosions about 1 inch across without to much trouble. I do want another concentrator to kick it into high gear and for when I get a bigger torch.

It boils crayon colors with ease, but think what it does with amazon night and some of the other ga colors is amazing. Now if I only had more money for glass I would be set. Well I guess I would need the te to use it also.
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  #13  
Old 2012-12-14, 2:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stackmyra View Post
I currently have a Cricket and three devilbiss 5l/min oxycons and Im thinking about upgrading to a Scorpion or a Lynx
Running a Scorpion with three 5 LPM machines and it performs well. The Scorpion has an oxygen requirement of 11 LPM with the Lynx at 7 LPM. The Lynx is a triple mix torch and may perform better at higher pressures. Which concentrators can not supply.

Upgraded myself from a Cricket to the Scorpion and never looked back. Like the idea that the center fire is the Cricket so the change over learning curve is rather small. From what others have said the Lynx is a whole new ballpark. IMO the Lynx is more heat than the Cricket but less than the Scorpion.
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  #14  
Old 2012-12-14, 4:59am
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Yes it seems the Scorpion would suit me fine
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  #15  
Old 2012-12-15, 6:13am
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I'm partial to the Mini-CC myself and I don't like GTT torches, flames are too agressive for me and don't have enough radiant heat.
You can run a Mini-CC on a 5 lpm concentrator but you won't get a very big flame. I have mine hooked to 2 of them but I usually set one at 3.5 lpm and the other at 4 lpm for routine work.
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  #16  
Old 2012-12-17, 8:59am
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I just posted something very similar to the following on another thread in response to Anne commenting on the Phantom, saying that it had an aggressive flame with no radiant heat:

A triple mix torch is not a one-trick pony. The GTT triple mix torches can be used just like a standard mix torch and can do anything a standard surface mix torch can do PLUS a whole lot more when employing the triple mix feature.

A triple mix torch can certainly have a soft flame with lots of radiant heat. All you have to do is use the green and red valve with the blue valve just barely cracked open (or off under certain circumstances as I have explained elsewhere) to use the torch as a standard surface mix. But why settle for just a standard surface mix?

The triple mix feature adds an extra dimension to the torch’s functionality. By adjusting the valves and directing where your oxygen is going, you can change the shape and chemistry of the flame. By using more blue valve and little or no green valve, you can get the most amazing, hot pin point flame. Personally, I love using that flame on my Phantom for stringer and detail work because I can spot heat precise areas without washing out the work I just did somewhere else on my piece. By using the blue and green valves together, you can get a highly oxidized flame that allows you to work some colors that just cannot be worked well on a standard surface mix or premix torch.

The whole thing is that you can dial in a very wide range of flame types on a triple mix, more than you could on a standard surface mix torch. It’s not a torch with an aggressive flame with no radiant heat unless you dial it in to be that.

I’ve used a Mini CC. I tried one out at the Gathering when they debuted it and I have a Mini CC that I bought to test with the concentrators that I sell. I feel the whole notion that the Mini CC is THE torch to get for radiant heat must have been borne out of the perception that if your hands are uncomfortable and you can barely touch the knobs of your torch, then it must be putting out a tremendous amount of radiant heat because I haven’t found it to have any more radiant heat than a Minor or a Bobcat when measured. I had the Mini CC, the Minor, and the Bobcat tested for radiant heat and they all had the same radiant heat. Wally at GTT used a simple technique to test this. He took the wooden end of a match stick (not the head) and carefully approached the body of the flame (about 3.5” from the face of the torch) until the wood ignited from the radiant heat. He measured the distance from the side of the flame to the point where the wood ignited. That distance was right at 0.300” for each of the three torches.

The body of the Mini CC is hotter than the body of other torches not because the flame puts out more radiant heat. The main reason the Mini CC’s body gets hotter than other torches is because it is made out of brass and brass conducts heat better than stainless steel.
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Last edited by kbinkster; 2012-12-17 at 9:02am.
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  #17  
Old 2012-12-17, 10:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
I just posted something very similar to the following on another thread in response to Anne commenting on the Phantom, saying that it had an aggressive flame with no radiant heat:

[good stuff deleted]
Thanks for the information.

-BEP
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Old 2012-12-17, 7:36pm
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Thanks for the information.

-BEP
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  #19  
Old 2012-12-17, 10:12pm
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Kimberly, can you direct me to the information about when to use the Lynx with the center knob closed? Also, would it damage the torch to leave the center knob closed?

Thanks!

Jo
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Old 2012-12-17, 10:29pm
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I've been doing really big (1.5" to 2") fat beads lately and I use a mini-CC. I love the radiant heat. That said, I run on oxy.
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  #21  
Old 2012-12-18, 6:53am
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Quote:
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Kimberly, can you direct me to the information about when to use the Lynx with the center knob closed? Also, would it damage the torch to leave the center knob closed?

Thanks!

Jo
The reason for having the center valve open, if only the tiniest little bit, is to create some flow of oxygen through the tiny injector tubes so that the ends of those tubes don't become dead spots at the face of the torch. Dead spots load up heat more easily and attract carbon build-up. Occasional carbon is not a problem, as you can flick it off, adjust your flame, and move on. If you let it collect/cake on and bake on, however, it can overheat the ends of the tubes and eventually, you could have some erosion, just like on any torch. It's easy to spot any problems long before that point. Because the injector jets are so small, you will notice the carbon build-up sooner than if they were larger tubes.

If you want to run a large soft flame, you can close the blue valve as long as you are running your candles 3/8" long or longer. Also, if you are changing your flame types quickly and not sitting on one flame type for long (like 10 minutes), you could close the blue valve.

The blue valve affects the shape of your flame. With it off, you have a standard surface mix flame, with radiant heat and everything. As you turn it on, it draws the heat more and more into the main body of the flame, where it can be directed into the glass, or specific parts of a piece. The more you turn on the blue valve, the narrower the flame becomes. Depending on what you do with the green valve, the flame can be more aggressive and more oxidizing.
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  #22  
Old 2012-12-18, 8:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post

The body of the Mini CC is hotter than the body of other torches not because the flame puts out more radiant heat. The main reason the Mini CC’s body gets hotter than other torches is because it is made out of brass and brass conducts heat better than stainless steel.

I've never implied anywhere that the body of the Mini-CC gets hot because of radiant heat. It gets hot if the flow of oxygen isn't right. I've been working with one for several years now and it doesn't get hot at all.
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Old 2013-02-14, 10:10pm
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Might want to look into the Bethlehem Alpha as well. I believe that would fall in line with the three torches you (the OP) have listed as options in your price range.
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  #24  
Old 2013-02-15, 9:11am
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I've never implied anywhere that the body of the Mini-CC gets hot because of radiant heat. It gets hot if the flow of oxygen isn't right. I've been working with one for several years now and it doesn't get hot at all.
Never understood why radiant heat from a torch is a good thing. I want the heat directed to the glass and NOT out to the sides where it is a hazard to my hands. I always run at least a touch of blue oxygen on my mirage because it keeps the torch cool but it is really nice to be able to also use it to control the shape and profile of the flame.
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Old 2013-02-15, 3:17pm
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Quote:
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Never understood why radiant heat from a torch is a good thing. I want the heat directed to the glass and NOT out to the sides where it is a hazard to my hands. I always run at least a touch of blue oxygen on my mirage because it keeps the torch cool but it is really nice to be able to also use it to control the shape and profile of the flame.
As a soft glass worker, radiant heat is nice because it makes the flame gentler. With a more forceful flame there is a finer, harder line between the hot and cold area, like (cold|||hot|||cold), whereas with a torch with more radiant heat, it's like (cold||||||||hot||||||||cold), which helps with thermal shock, evenly-distributing heat, and other heat control issues.

Last edited by dusty; 2013-02-15 at 3:25pm.
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  #26  
Old 2013-02-15, 8:47pm
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Quote:
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As a soft glass worker, radiant heat is nice because it makes the flame gentler. With a more forceful flame there is a finer, harder line between the hot and cold area, like (cold|||hot|||cold), whereas with a torch with more radiant heat, it's like (cold||||||||hot||||||||cold), which helps with thermal shock, evenly-distributing heat, and other heat control issues.

Ok. I could see that might be a good thing but only if your torch is severely undersized for the piece your working or if your not used to managing heat base. Thanks for the explanation, dusty.
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Old 2013-02-16, 4:08pm
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You're welcome.

Different horses for different courses. Thermal shock happens a lot easier with soft glass than boro, especially sculptural, and it's very easy to melt fine details away with a too aggressive flame. I find a softer flame lets me baby the glass less, even when making simple shapes like marbles and pendants - less waving thick rods or components through the flame before using them and less reheating when applying lots of details.
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  #28  
Old 2013-02-17, 4:07am
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Radiant heat helps for stringer work as well, larger zone.
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