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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #1  
Old 2013-09-14, 3:39am
ajda ajda is offline
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Default Mandrels for boro

I know this has been discussed previously, but please forgive me for raising it again - I'm finding it difficult to get clear answers to some simple questions. I know some boro workers think mandrels are tools of the devil, but you'll have to forgive me for that too. I like working both on- and off-mandrel.

The big question.. What is the best material for mandrels to use with boro?

I use various sizes, including skinny ones (1/16" or 1.6mm). Currently I use TIG welding rods in 316 or 316L stainless steel and they don't last long. Even 3/16" (5mm) gets pretty chewed up over time.

I know that Auralens supply "almost indestructible mandrels" and if I lived in the USA I'd buy a few to try out. Unfortunately shipping to the UK is silly money (eg a 12-pack of 1/16" mandrels @ $4.75 costs $43 to ship) - unless I buy a large quantity with a view to selling on to other UK beadmakers as a way of spreading the cost. However, that's a risk to take - a) because I don't know if they are as good as advertised and b) because I don't know if Mike Aurelius is as bad as advertised (here and in other places on the web).

I would really appreciate some sound advice.
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  #2  
Old 2013-09-14, 5:41am
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MagpieGlass MagpieGlass is offline
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I bought some ... didn't really notice a real different over my TIG 316L. I use almost exclusively 1/16" mandrels for boro and soft.

No issues with Mike, shipping or receiving product. Not aware of any issue in the past but I didn't really research before buying.

The TIG are cheap enough, and I switch ends when the first one starts getting warped or crappy, that I just replace them as needed.
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  #3  
Old 2013-09-14, 5:44am
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istandalone24/7 istandalone24/7 is offline
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jeez just get the highest grade stainless rod you can off of the google. cut to size when you get it in.
f#ck paying for "bead mandrels".
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  #4  
Old 2013-09-14, 6:48am
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jeez just get the highest grade stainless rod you can off of the google. cut to size when you get it in.
f#ck paying for "bead mandrels".

Pretty much the answer right there. 1/16's is tougher to use with boro because of the higher temperatures making it easier to burn through.

But 3/32's generally easier.

I just bought a 5 pound tube of the rods from the welding shop, cut it down, and deburred it with an angle grinder. Easy. The added benefit is that if you prefer longer mandrels, you can cut them to whatever you like.

For example: http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Stee.../dp/B007JCQT02

I use 1/4" steel rods from the hardware store for my big hole beads
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  #5  
Old 2013-09-14, 6:50am
ajda ajda is offline
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Thanks Laura. I'm using TIG 316L at present and they're cheap enough to replace as needed - but still irritating when they give way suddenly and a soft bead flops onto the worktop! So, you find Mike's mandrels no better? I'm glad to hear a good word for him, though!

Thanks, istandalone, that's pretty much what I'm doing - but what do you mean by "highest grade"? All I know is that different grades of stainless steel are formulated for different conditions - do you know which grade is best for repeated exposure to high temp oxy/propane flame? I'd like to know - I've so far failed to find any definitive answers even with the help of Google & Co...
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  #6  
Old 2013-09-14, 6:53am
ajda ajda is offline
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Thanks, Tom - yes I just bought a kilo of TIG rods off eBay - dirt cheap - 316L - don't know if that's the best available material though...
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  #7  
Old 2013-09-14, 11:47am
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These are my favorites.
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  #8  
Old 2013-09-14, 12:40pm
ajda ajda is offline
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Looks like another vote for 316L...
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  #9  
Old 2013-09-14, 1:53pm
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The overall issue is that stainless TIG filler rod was "never" designed to be used for lampworking purposes. It is something that more or less works for the art.

One can take a look at the various grades and pick out one that has the highest melting temperature or one that is made for welding racing exhaust pipes. These may help, however, one must consider mandrels a disposable commodity.

IMO the difference between 304, 316 and others is so insignificant, in regards to lampworking, that overall it will not make any difference in mandrel longevity.
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  #10  
Old 2013-09-14, 3:13pm
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That's my take on it too. I assume it's going to get bent, burnt through, discarded if something hopelessly seizes on there, etc. It doesn't do me any good to spend a ton of money on it so I buy simply what'll work.
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  #11  
Old 2013-09-15, 5:34am
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316 or higher will last longer....but probably not by much.
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Old 2013-09-15, 7:16am
Angie09 Angie09 is offline
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I hate to be the odd woman out here but.....I bought Mikes mandrels (3/32") over 3 years ago and still am using them. I use a mandrel spinner so her cut them down to 6" for me and they are by far my favorite mandrels for staying straight and strong. With that said I never had a problem with him until the very last transaction which were special order 5/64" and these took a long time. Say what you will about his performance record but people can, and do change. My transactions were certainly worth it to me. And I've tried lots of other vendors for mandrels (looking to save some money) but none were as good.
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Old 2013-09-15, 2:11pm
ajda ajda is offline
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No problem being the odd one, Angie - thanks for your input. I agree nobody should be condemned on the basis of a past record, especially if he isn't there to answer for himself. A couple of questions for you. Do you work mainly with boro or soft glass? Have tried the 1/16" mandrels?
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  #14  
Old 2013-09-15, 3:09pm
Angie09 Angie09 is offline
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I work both ... now mainly soft. Never use 1/16 for anything!!!!
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  #15  
Old 2013-09-15, 4:52pm
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I agree nobody should be condemned on the basis of a past record, especially if he isn't there to answer for himself.

I'd add, there are reasons he's no longer here to answer for himself.
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  #16  
Old 2013-09-15, 5:15pm
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With 1/16 inch mandrel one has to be very careful when using boro as it is easy to burn through. It is one of those PPP things. Also, keeping the bead a reasonable size also helps.
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Old 2013-09-15, 7:43pm
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I also use Mike's mandrels and love them. You still need to let the flame ride on the top half of the bead and avoid having the mandrel in the flame. I use 3/32.
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  #18  
Old 2013-09-16, 12:58am
ajda ajda is offline
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In response to the last two: I accept that it must be mainly down to technique in the end, ensuring the mandrel isn't exposed to too much heat for too long - and the more you do, the more finely you can judge it... But sometimes I want to give the whole bead the full blast of a hot flame - and I'd love to have a mandrel that would stand up to that. Maybe I'm just dreaming...

As far as I can tell, the chief advantage of Mike's mandrels over 316 welding rods is that they last longer without softening, deforming and corroding. And that's clearly good. But I imagine they can't take the sort of blast heat I'm talking about either. Has anyone out there tested to destruction and compared one against the other in this respect?
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  #19  
Old 2013-11-25, 6:45am
ajda ajda is offline
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Since I last posted here I've been doing some research - talking to experts in the field of stainless steels and other specialist alloys, reading whatever I can find online, running experiments of my own and getting other users involved. You can see some of the discussion here - http://www.frit-happens.co.uk/forum/...topic=42781.0/ - or, briefly, a few major points below:

No stainless steel mandrel can stand the full blast of a hot flame for long - and the thinner it is the more easily it burns through - so the dream of an indestructible mandrel remains only a dream for now.

There are, however, certain grades of stainless steel specifically formulated for high temperature applications and these should perform better for longer than other grades. At high temperatures a gradual deterioration takes place in the steel causing it to weaken and soften - the technical people call this "creep". High temperature grades may not have a significantly higher melting point compared to other grades, but they are more resistant to creep and should therefore survive the abuse we give them for longer.

Essentially all stainless steel is iron alloyed with a minimum of 10.5% chromium - which is what gives it corrosion resistance, the "stainless" quality. Other elements (such as nickel, molybdenum, titanium, copper, carbon, nitrogen) are added to give the steel specific properties for specific conditions. Grade numbers (eg 308, 316, 316L, 310) do not indicate "higher" and "lower", but simply different formulations for different purposes. So, for example, 316, with a relatively high molybdenum content, survives well in wet corrosive environments (like seawater - which is why it is often called "marine grade"). On the other hand, the elements that give 316 that property make it less suited to high temperature conditions - therefore not the best choice for mandrels.

High temperature grades of stainless steel generally contain more nickel and chromium, as well as other elements, which make them more creep-resistant. Examples are 309, 310, 253MA and RA330. The balance of cost/availability versus performance makes 310 probably the best choice. It may work out slightly more expensive than more common grades like 316, but even skinny mandrels in this grade do remain significantly harder and straighter for longer - so probably better value in the long run.

You should be able to source 310 quite easily, though it is not always easy to get small quantities at reasonable prices. I've ended up buying far more than I need myself... so, to clear some of my surplus, I am now selling 310 mandrels in my Etsy shop, various diameters and lengths. I expect most buyers will be in the UK, though I am happy to send overseas if you can't find what you need closer to home - https://www.etsy.com/shop/ajdalampwork/ - look in "Tools and supplies" section.

Good luck - and if anyone finds the holy grail of a truly indestructible mandrel, be sure to let me know...
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  #20  
Old 2013-11-25, 9:28am
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nice research thanks
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Old 2013-11-25, 10:42am
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It's funny, I was thinking about using quartz rod for mandrels. I doubt it would be good for "skinny" mandrels but I have some 3mm that seems like it would do the job. I just flat kill my 316 stainless mandrels when I try to work boro on them.

Now that I've read this post I'm going to have to re-visit that idea
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  #22  
Old 2013-11-26, 9:56am
rjohn7 rjohn7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajda View Post
The big question.. What is the best material for mandrels to use with boro?

I use various sizes, including skinny ones (1/16" or 1.6mm). Currently I use TIG welding rods in 316 or 316L stainless steel and they don't last long. Even 3/16" (5mm) gets pretty chewed up over time.
I use Tig welding rods for welding and they melt a treat. That is what they are designed for.

Putting them into heat and letting them cool slowly is not going to make them last longer. you are softening the steel by doing that. If you want them to last longer after you have removed beads, you could temper them, but quite frankly as soon as you get them hot you will lose the temper.
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  #23  
Old 2013-11-26, 10:17am
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Mandrels are consumable, even if you are careful about not melting them outright, they also get slightly skinnier in the working area over time and eventually it gets to be a challenge to get the bead over the tip (which is still the original diameter).

Every once in a while I will take the slightly bent ones and roll them around on a flat surface (garage concrete floor), while beating them with a mallet. This straightens them out and hardens them a bit. It's like military school for wayward mandrels.
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