Question about my Piranha

[dla]

What's happening is I'm getting little "jets" or "puffs" of flame spurting out now and again. Kinda like a miniture fire ball . So hard to describe. Doesn't happen all the time but it's starting to occur more and more. I clean the torch after each session with the wire that came with it. I've tried both tanked oxy and the oxy con and it does it with both. I don't torch every day and in fact, I went all summer with only a few torch sessions here and there. Just keeps "spitting" these tiny balls of fire ! lol ! Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated !
Forgot to mention, using bbq tank propane and the flame itself seems fine. Candles are like they're suppose to be.
Thanks,
Debbie

[kbinkster]

Debbie, what oxycon are you using (what LPM and what psi does it put out)?

[dla]

The LPM is 5 @ 9 - 9.5 psi with float ball set at 5 but I don't believe it's the oxycon BECAUSE it's (the torch) doing this when I use EITHER the oxy con OR the tanked o2. It's weird.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by dla

The LPM is 5 @ 9 - 9.5 psi with float ball set at 5 but I don't believe it's the oxycon BECAUSE it's (the torch) doing this when I use EITHER the oxy con OR the tanked o2. It's weird.

I read that part... but... there's a reason I ask.

See, to me, it sounds like carboning. One of the causes for carboning up a torch is low purity. Low purity causes a reduction flame - a flame where there is more fuel than oxygen in the mix and combustion is not complete. You will have a lot of the carbon from your fuel passing through unburned. That unburned carbon sticks to the inside walls of the tubes and orifices of the torch. Simple cleaning with a cleaning wire does not always remove all the carbon. And it builds up. Even if you switch to a neutral flame (like when switching from a poor purity concentrator to a tank), that carbon left behind inside your torch still grabs onto more carbon that passes through and it just grows. Pieces break off and are little fireballs shooting through your flame. I would recommend that you send your torch in for a thorough, deep cleaning to get rid of any residual carbon, if you can't do it yourself.

So, could it be that your concentrator is the culprit? Well, it could be. If it is a DeVilbiss, the manufacturer specifies that the machine (at least the models that I know about) be set at about 8.5 psi to maintain the proper purity at 5 LPM. I know of a vendor that was claiming that their reconditioned units put out 9-9.5 psi. If you have a DeVilbiss that has been tweaked to put out 9.5 psi, when the manufacturer specifies 8.5 psi, you may have a problem.

Concentrator manufacturers go through a long process of developing a concentrator. Everything is a balance. These companies spend millions and millions of dollars (literally) and years and years on research and development before ever bringing one of their machines to market. High pressure is a good feature to have, so if these machines were capable of performing well at a certain pressure, the manufacturer would surely specify so and market it as such. Yes, people can tweak a machine here and there to get it to do one thing or another, but they aren't keeping the balance. Remember, a concentrator is more than a couple of seive beds and a compressor. There are many other parts that go together in this system to make it all work and when a couple of things are pushed beyond the original balance, problems occur. Sure, it might work and put out accetable purity... at first. But, over time, the performance decreases. How soon or how long until it fails varies.


Other causes of fireballs or sparks in the flame besides carboning...

Sometimes, if you tip over your propane tank while the torch is running, you can get balls of fire shooting out of your torch.

Also, dust and debris getting sucked into your flame can cause little sparks. When my husband uses the grinder in our shop while I'm torching, debris from that will get sucked into my ventilation box and into my flame. If you sit behind your torch and snap your shirt, lint will get sucked into the flame and make a little shower of sparks.



But, your description really sounds like plain ole carboning. A deep cleaning would help, and certainly not hurt anything. After getting it thoroughly cleaned, you ought to run it on tanked oxygen and see if the problem is gone before running it on your concentrator.

Also, check your candles. I read that you said they were like they're supposed to be, but "supposed to be" according to whom?

If everything checks out, move back to the concentrator and see what happens. If the problems come back after moving back to the concentrator, then I would definitely suspect a purity issue with the concentrator.

[dla]

Thanks very much Kimberly for all your tips, suggestions, info, etc ! I really do appreciate it ! I was thinking it was carbon build up myself however I wanted to get more opinions on it. I'll be calling Bethlehem probably Monday. Hopefully there won't be a long turn-around.

As to the concentrator, I've barely used it over the last 11 months I've had it. In fact, I've used mainly the tank whenever I have torched. The oxycon is sort of a "back up" as it were. But I will follow your advise after I get my torch back and see what happens.

As to the dust, etc that can be airborne - very much a possibility as I torch in the basement with a window open all the way. Dusty down there to be sure and we live in the woods so one can't be sure exactly WHAT gets drawn in the window. It's a very large window too as the back of the basement is actually above ground.

As for the candles on the torch - when I say "they're how they're suppose to be" it's hard for me to describe other than to say a neutral flame as described in Passing the Flame.

Thanks again !
Debbie

[kbinkster]

As for the candles on the torch - when I say "they're how they're suppose to be" it's hard for me to describe other than to say a neutral flame as described in Passing the Flame.

O.K., well that does tell me something. I have heard from several people who follow try to get a neutral flame following PTF, and still get a reduction flame. I have posted previously about how the candles should be for a neutral flame. I'll go look and see if I can cut and paste it here.

[dla]

About the candles, I was in a rush when I posted this yesterday so I'll follow up here a bit. With the piranha, the flame is a bit more on the oxidizing side. I'm no good at judging length but if I had to guess, maybe they're 1/2" or less ? Just not 100% sure on that.

I've already disconnected the torch and it's getting packed up and sent off tomorrow. I hooked up my old Minor and played yesterday for a while. First tried the tanked oxy, no problem at all. Next tried the oxy con, no problem again. Worked like a charm. The hard part for me was getting use to the Minor flame vs. the Piranha flame ! Very different ! Anyway, I'm really thinking it's the torch and once I get it back, I'll hook it up and see what happens.

Debbie

[Mr. Smiley]

The low purity theory sounds a bit off to me Kimberly. These are surface mix torches and combustion happens after the gases leave the torch. How would any unburned propane get back into the torch to carbon it up? Low purity doesn't come into the equation until the gases are far away from the torch face. Low purity makes a difference in the flame characteristics... but it shouldn't make a difference on the inside of a surface mix torch. The propane and the oxygen are kept completely separate until they leave the torch, where they mix and combust. If it's getting gunked up, my guess would be dirty propane, running at too low of a pressure or not enough volume. Doesn't seem like either of the last two problems are present here. Dirty fuel would be my guess...

[dla]

You know Brent, I thought about that one too because the last time I got propane, I got it from a gas station that has a huge tank just for refilling these bbq tanks. We live in a "vacation" type area so this is cheaper than trading out the whole tank. We also live very near a propane "plant" which the only thing they do is provide propane. That's where I usually get it but the last time I did not. So, that is certainly a possibility.
Regardless, I'm sending in the torch for a very thorough cleaning.
Thanks,
Debbie

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

The low purity theory sounds a bit off to me Kimberly. These are surface mix torches and combustion happens after the gases leave the torch. How would any unburned propane get back into the torch to carbon it up? Low purity doesn't come into the equation until the gases are far away from the torch face. Low purity makes a difference in the flame characteristics... but it shouldn't make a difference on the inside of a surface mix torch. The propane and the oxygen are kept completely separate until they leave the torch, where they mix and combust. If it's getting gunked up, my guess would be dirty propane, running at too low of a pressure or not enough volume. Doesn't seem like either of the last two problems are present here. Dirty fuel would be my guess...

What happens is that it causes the face to heat up more than it should. That heat transfers to the tubes and other structures within the torch. Once those internal structures heat up, they grab onto the carbon in the fuel and it sticks to the metal structures - kind of like how things bake onto a cookie sheet in the oven. That's what causes the internal blockages.

[Mr. Smiley]

I would think less pressure and flow, causing a softer flame with the heat closer to the front of the torch would be more of a problem. That would cause the torch to run hotter. Low purity would simple cause the flame to be less hot... heating up the torch even less than a fully combusted hotter flame.

[kbinkster]

Nope, you can still get that problem with high pressure and low purity. You have to sit on the same flame setting longer to heat the glass.

Having too soft a flame with short candles will cause overheating, of course. But, pressure (from a concentrator) is not too big of an issue on most torches, though, because you can still have adequate candle lengths for a neutral flame at moderate pressures and good purity. With lower purity, you have to run shorter candles to get oxidizing effects. This can cause the face to overheat and result in carboning the torch, too.

Most torch manufacturers recommend a pressure setting for their torches based on tank pressure, not concentrator pressure. With a tank, the pressure you set at the regulator governs how much oxygen gets to the torch in terms of flow, as well as the pressure behind it. So, if you set a regulator to a given pressure, the regulator will keep dumping oxygen into the line to maintain that pressure. This increases the flow the more torch valve is opened. So, if a torch needs a lot of flow (volume), traditionally, the answer would have been to set a high pressure on the regulator, so that extra oxygen gets dumped into the line to maintain the higher pressure. It's not that the torch needs a high pressure to push the oxygen through the internal structure of the torch (for some torches, though, that is the case, but not for most standard torches like the Piranha we're discussing in this thread).

So, when on an oxygen concentrator, where the flow (volume) that the torch needs for a certain job is provided, you don't need extra high pressures.

Moderate pressures do offer more thrust to the flame than lower pressures to help get the ignition point further off the face, but there's only so far off the face you need to go. Higher pressures are nice for some applications, but not when sacrificing purity.

The other thing about low purity and the uncombusted fuel is the quality of color. Colors are duller and not as bright. Also, people tend to burn their glass more when running a reduction flame because they have to hold it closer to the face of the torch just to get it hot.

[Mr. Smiley]

If the flame is too cool to melt the glass fast, causing you to have to sit at that flame setting longer, it makes sense to me that the flame is also not going to heat up the torch face as much as a hotter flame worked for the same length of time. I've run my torch at a very hot setting for extended lengths of time and the torch gets hotter than when I run a cooler flame for the same length of time. Are you saying we should be giving our torches a break or not running them for any length of time on a cooler flame setting, but it's OK to run a hotter flame as long as you want to? I don't follow the logic there. A torch is cooled by the flow of gas through it. If there is more flow to cool the torch internally, less heat being produced by the flame and more thrust to get the combustion further from the face, I don't see how that is the cause of over heating leading to carbon build up. Low purity may cause other issues with how fast the glass melts or the quality of the flame mixture, which leads to color issues... but I still don't see how it could possibly affect the torch body getting hotter and causing carbon build up.


I guess it really doesn't matter to me personally. I've answered the purity question with the UO units I run... I get great color out of an oxygen sensitive boro pallet. Never had an issue with color when I switched from tanks to the older UO units I run, which seems to be the time when their purity was brought into question. I also don't clean the ports on my Cuda. They haven't ever clogged up. It's got almost two years of daily use on these concentrators... the Cuda runs hot as far as torches go and I don't have a carbon problem or an over heating problem. My heat sink is still green. I run clean fuel and have plenty of flow with good purity... my set up runs perfectly with no maintenance in almost two years. I've gathered my information and trust through long term use of these products. I loved my UO units even when I wasn't selling them... I thank the UO guys every time I flip the switch instead of turning the valve on an oxy tank. They have provided me with the volume, purity and pressure I needed as a boro worker, to get off those blasted tanks.

I do enjoy discussing these issues with you. I'm so glad we can do it in a kind manner. Sharing different views without getting nasty, benefits us all. It's refreshing to engage in problem solving like this. I can't imagine the frustration folks would go through having to figure these issues out on their own. Thanks for being so helpful Kimberly. You really are an asset to this site.

[kbinkster]

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this discussion, but I've been very busy the last few days.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

If the flame is too cool to melt the glass fast, causing you to have to sit at that flame setting longer, it makes sense to me that the flame is also not going to heat up the torch face as much as a hotter flame worked for the same length of time.

Ah, but they wouldn’t be worked for the same time, would they? It takes longer to melt glass with a cold flame than it does with a hot flame. But anyway… no, a hotter flame would not necessarily heat up the face more than a cooler flame.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I've run my torch at a very hot setting for extended lengths of time and the torch gets hotter than when I run a cooler flame for the same length of time. Are you saying we should be giving our torches a break or not running them for any length of time on a cooler flame setting, but it's OK to run a hotter flame as long as you want to? I don't follow the logic there.

The logic is that the hotter flame is using more fuel and oxygen, thus passing more gas through the torch body and pushing the candles (and the point of ignition) out further from the face of the torch, thus keeping the torch cooler. Of course, this is given a neutral flame. With good purity, you can have a nice neutral flame with candles that are a good length.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

A torch is cooled by the flow of gas through it. If there is more flow to cool the torch internally, less heat being produced by the flame and more thrust to get the combustion further from the face, I don't see how that is the cause of over heating leading to carbon build up.

You just said that a torch is cooled by the flow of the gas through it. Well, the more flow going through the torch, the larger the flame. So, the larger the flame, the more the torch is actually cooled. The larger the flame, and more specifically the longer the candles, the further out from the face ignition takes place and the less likely carbon build-up is.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Low purity may cause other issues with how fast the glass melts or the quality of the flame mixture, which leads to color issues... but I still don't see how it could possibly affect the torch body getting hotter and causing carbon build up.

Low purity does indeed cause problems with color (and other problems), and that is part of why it can also cause carbon build-up.

When purity is low, you don’t have the proper ratio of oxygen and fuel for neutral or oxidizing flames. To get a neutral flame needed for most colors or an oxidizing flame needed for some of the special glasses, you really can’t add more oxygen because what’s coming out of the low purity concentrator is not enough oxygen and you would just be thinning the flame out even more by increasing the flow. So, in order to get the proper ratio of fuel to oxygen, you have to reduce the amount of fuel going into the mix. The result is a small flame with short candles.

Short candles cause carbon build-up, as I described earlier.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I guess it really doesn't matter to me personally. I've answered the purity question with the UO units I run... I get great color out of an oxygen sensitive boro pallet. Never had an issue with color when I switched from tanks to the older UO units I run, which seems to be the time when their purity was brought into question.

Actually, Effetre is more oxygen sensitive than boro. Leaded glasses are even more sensitive than that.

And, yes, I remember back a year and a half to two years ago, thereabouts, when the purity issue was first brought up. Unlimited Oxygen/South Central Cryogenics claimed that the glass artists they consulted with told them that purity in the 70% range was just fine for lampworking and they did not understand why other lampworkers insisted that purity be above 90%. When it was explained that the higher purity was needed for color and getting rid of reduction, they adjusted the specs of their larger machines.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I also don't clean the ports on my Cuda. They haven't ever clogged up. It's got almost two years of daily use on these concentrators... the Cuda runs hot as far as torches go and I don't have a carbon problem or an over heating problem. My heat sink is still green. I run clean fuel and have plenty of flow with good purity... my set up runs perfectly with no maintenance in almost two years. I've gathered my information and trust through long term use of these products. I loved my UO units even when I wasn't selling them... I thank the UO guys every time I flip the switch instead of turning the valve on an oxy tank. They have provided me with the volume, purity and pressure I needed as a boro worker, to get off those blasted tanks.

Well, I’m glad that you have had a positive experience with the equipment you purchased. My husband’s company was not so lucky when they acquired their Unlimited Oxygen (then called South Central Cryogenics) units.

Willy and I were at the Gathering in Louisville (2005) when South Central Cryogenics made their debut into the lampworking arena. We talked to Jerry Butler (the sales rep) and Paul (one of the owners) about the unit. Paul showed us how it was putting out 92-94% purity at a high flow. Of course, they had the cabinet open and were turning hex screws inside while taking the reading. At the time, I did not know better. Anyway, the unit they had at the show was called the Millennium 10 Custom. It put out 10 LPM at 20 psi. This would be perfect for a Lynx, so we offered to let them run it at the GTT table for Open Torch. Willy and I gave them their first break.

So, the machine ran well at Open Torch and we were all very excited. South Central Cryogenics offered us a distributorship – the first one –right there at the show. Willy told them that we would need to do more testing on their machines before he would feel right about recommending or selling them. Other vendors did not feel the same, and by the end of the show there were several people signed up to be distributors for South Central Cryogenics.

So, Willy and Wally were all set to test these units. South Central sent down two M-20s (the unit that was originally called the Millennium 10 Custom, 10 LPM at 20 psi) and one M-10 (5 LPM at 10 psi). They also sent an invoice. That should have been a big red flag, right there.

Anyway, out of the three units that were sent, none of them worked upon arrival. South Central made good and replaced the three bad units with three more. Wally tested the three units and found that the M-10 actually performed better than the M-20s because the purity was better on the M-10 than on the M-20s. None of them performed as well as the Integra10 he had previously tested. So, Willy and Wally turned down the offer to be a distributor of these machines. (And btw, at that time, Paulette was the distributor for SeQual – I was not in the concentrator business at all). This was a disappointment to us, naturally, because if the machines would have performed well, we would have had a really good oxygen solution for the Lynx. Plus, we had been offered a very nice deal for a distributorship. We would have stood to benefit quite a bit had the units performed well and to our standards.

I have here with me one of the M-20s Willy and Wally bought. There is a definite difference in the flame using the M-20 and the Regalia. The M-20 does have a little more thrust to it, but thrust alone does not equal heat. There is a definite difference in between the flame when running the M-20 and the flame when running the Regalia. The M-20 flame is an icy, weak looking blue. The Regalia flame is a deeper, richer blue, like what you would get with tanked oxygen. And then, there is the breathing. The M-20 breathes, leaving rhythmic a gap in flow that actually causes the flame to slip into reduction. The Regalia does not breathe, it just produces a steady stream of great purity oxygen.

I’m sorry, but just as you go on your experience when recommending something, so do I.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I do enjoy discussing these issues with you. I'm so glad we can do it in a kind manner. Sharing different views without getting nasty, benefits us all. It's refreshing to engage in problem solving like this. I can't imagine the frustration folks would go through having to figure these issues out on their own. Thanks for being so helpful Kimberly. You really are an asset to this site.

Yes, it is nice to be able to discuss things rationally and share differing views. Different people have different experiences and all are worth listening to. You had one kind of experience with something and I had another. Such is life, sometimes. One experience does not negate the other, but rather adds to the bigger picture of things.

[dla]

Just wanted to update this thread. I just got off the phone with Bethlehem and they finished working on my torch. They replaced valves & cleaned it. Didn't say what the problem was (and I forgot to ask simply because we had a horrible connection) all I know is it's not costing me a dime to have it fixed. Whether or not the valves have anything to do with shooting fire balls I have no clue but I'll sure find out how it's working when I get it back ! lol !
Thanks very much for all the input !
Debbie

[kbinkster]

They must have found a pin leak in the torch. Pesky little pin leaks cause premixing - where the fuel and oxygen mix inside the body of the torch and ignite. With a surface mix torch, the gases should never meet until after they both pass through the torch and are past the face. This premixing causes overheating of the torch. That will definitely cause carboning and sometimes, it can cause fireballs.

You didn't mention any popping or flame shutting off symptoms, so I didn't even discuss the premixing possibility. I've caught flack for that in the past with certain people accusing me of trashing a certain torch company when I suggested that premixing could be causing certain problems - I was labeled an alarmist. I guess I should go back to being an alarmist.

Anyway, I'm very glad that they got you all fixded up, Debbie (and especially at no cost)!

[dla]

Well, whatever it was they found, they evidently got it taken care of. At least that's what they told me ! lol ! So, hopefully that was the problem and all will work fine when I get it back home.

I'll say one thing, the body of the torch WAS getting very hot to the touch. Enough that I lightly burned myself a few times on it. Hmmm, could of been exactly the problem however, it was not popping and the flame was not shutting off on it's own. Do those two symptoms need to be present with a pinpoint leak inside the torch ? Just curious now.

Anyway, thanks again for all your help ! And yes, having to pay not a dime is ALWAYS a good thing ! lol !
Debbie