So we'll never have Z99 again?

truegem · #1 2011-04-04, 6:42pm

It seems odd that it would be gone forever. Do you think they might sell the formula to another company or something? I never got to try it and I am seeing it all over the place now and I love what I'm seeing! How unfortunate that it's not going to be around anymore.

Dreamscapes Studio · #2 2011-04-04, 7:18pm

That's what they say. Family doesn't want to sell the recipes for their glass. I know what you mean ... I never got to try it either.

Cheryl

ltsexpressions · #3 2011-04-04, 9:55pm

Pray someone somewhere who owns a nice stash, will get the recipe figured out and bring us back the Z99 joy....

Kevan · #4 2011-04-04, 10:09pm

Anyone know when it first appeared?

'Cause I have yet to determine if I have some in the is haul of Zimmerman and Kugler powders and frit I got.

SadiesJewels · #5 2011-04-04, 10:19pm

I've never understood secrets ... why not let the recipe live?

beadbroad · #6 2011-04-04, 10:24pm

Considering how some companies can't seem to reproduce their own colors from batch to batch, I can understand how a family might want to protect their legacy.

truegem · #7 2011-04-04, 10:39pm

I can understand protecting their legacy, too, but if it brings people joy, then....there must be some aspect I don't understand. One of those things you just have to respect. =)

SadiesJewels · #8 2011-04-04, 10:46pm

Nope ... no legacy understanding here also ... just, well, don't get it.

Last year plus I had a relative die, and it made me appreciate that at the end of it all we're really nothing. Our collections of beautiful things mean nothing to those behind us ... my collections of glass and tools will be gone and mean nothing to my family. He had an amazing collection of home recorded videos (you know those tape things) ... lol. It was his passion. Gone to the dump.

Here the Zimmermans have a chance for their glass to mean something to others, to be immortalised in at least the Zimmerman name and a beautiful purple color - but instead they chose for it to be forgotten. Oh well ...

truegem · #9 2011-04-05, 12:18am

"No legacy understanding"....lol

alb6094 · #10 2011-04-05, 7:06am

The maker may have requested that the glass recipes die with him. My german grandmother was an amazing cook and would never share her recipes. When I asked (as an adult) if she would share some of them with me her reply was along the lines, "They're mine and I'm taking them with me." :::shrug:::

I find it very sad but some people are like that.

beadbroad · #11 2011-04-05, 7:18am

I can see that this will not be a popular sentiment, but it rubs me the wrong way when people seem to feel entitled to something someone else has because they like it. Whether or not to share something and with whom is a personal decision that I believe should be respected.

alb6094 · #12 2011-04-05, 7:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beadbroad

I can see that this will not be a popular sentiment, but it rubs me the wrong way when people seem to feel entitled to something someone else has because they like it. Whether or not to share something and with whom is a personal decision that I believe should be respected.

I agree that a person's wishes should be respected. I found my grandmother's recipes after she died and burned them without reading them because that was what she requested. I thought it was a great loss and it almost killed me to do that but it was her decision, her property, and not mine.

Perhaps this family was in a similar situation.

What I have never understood about the "I'm taking it with me" mentality is the basic unwillingness to share what you have learned in life with others after you've left. What does it matter, really? You're not here anymore. How much knowledge has been lost throughout time because of the unwillingness to share? If the author of the glass book in the what was it, 1600's(? - too lazy to go get Bhandu's book to look up exact dates/names) had not decided to leave Murano and write his book and share the recipes where would LW be now? Not that I'll ever do anything as substantial as Z-99 but I have learned to be a pretty good cook and my daughter is entitled to anything she wants that I have learned or created in my time on earth.

In regards to the Z-99 though there is an issue of profitability. The family no longer wants to produce glass but perhaps the idea of profiting from the sale of the recipes or having someone else profit from the production of the glass is morally reprehensible to them. I can understand that, it's an entirely different situation.

I can only speak for myself but I don't feel entitled to anything. I just think it's sad when knowledge has to die.

beadbroad · #13 2011-04-05, 8:11am

I understand how you feel. Thank you for saying that; I was beginning to work myself into a froth about something that probably wasn't here.

For all the talk about white light, prayers, and sending good thoughts on this forum, the negativity I have sometimes perceived towards the Zimmermann family has troubled me. I hope a few people will spare a kind thought for them today.

LAbeaddragon · #14 2011-04-05, 8:36am

Could it be the formula was never recorded on paper and died with Mr. Zimmermann?

Damselfly · #15 2011-04-05, 8:51am

I totally agree with Astrid.

Edited to add: I think there's a big difference between wishing that something would continue to be available, and having a sense of entitlement.

I think that this "you have a sense of entitlement" mantra is being thrown out far too frequently these days (by everyone, politicians, media, etc) and is used in cases where it's just not true.

Eileen · #16 2011-04-05, 8:54am

I don't even know what we're talking about here, other than it's frit.

I'm wondering if they think that someone in the family may decide to produce it again in the future, so are holding on to the recipe just in case.

RSimmons · #17 2011-04-05, 9:37am

Louis Comfort Tiffany did the same thing. The last person who knew the formulations kept the secret to the end.

Robert

alb6094 · #18 2011-04-05, 10:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by beadbroad

I understand how you feel. Thank you for saying that; I was beginning to work myself into a froth about something that probably wasn't here.

There's nothing wrong with froth, I get frothy all the time.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that because hearing others helps us to evaluate our own responses and feelings and gives us the opportunity to grow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beadbroad

For all the talk about white light, prayers, and sending good thoughts on this forum, the negativity I have sometimes perceived towards the Zimmermann family has troubled me. I hope a few people will spare a kind thought for them today.

I feel so sad for the Zimmerman family, and for anyone who loses a loved one and I grieve for the loss of the creative mind behind such beautiful glass. Decisions that have to be made and wishes honored during the grieving process are so hard and when those decisions are impacted by greed (as oftentimes happens not just on a business level but within families as many of us who've had to negotiate the relative nightmare that goes along with the dissolution of someone's estate are well aware-'buzzards' was the term my husband used when we were in the midst of it) it is just, well, crazymaking is the only nice term I can come up with offhand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSimmons

Louis Comfort Tiffany did the same thing. The last person who knew the formulations kept the secret to the end.

Robert

I remember reading that somewhere Robert, that was an incalculable loss to the glass world and the art world in general.

Someone on this forum recommended watching 'The Pyramid Code' which I recently finished (it's instant watch on Netflix, excellent documentary-go watch it!) and the hypothesis there is that the Egyptians had knowledge that was lost due to secrecy within societies that we have never and may never recover.

2tumblingdragonz · #19 2011-04-05, 10:57am

Inspiration for someone to come up with something better.
I can see both sides and I will buy z-99 any chance I get but too often we get stuck when we like something and we stay in that comfort zone.
There have been great discussions on after z-99 what next?
I look forward to seeing what gets developed; whether trying to reproduce z99 or just coming up with some wonderful glass.
Dream on!

PittsGlass · #20 2011-04-05, 12:14pm

I will really miss many of the Zimmerman line. Their white was the best in the biz. A friend of mine knows the chemist. He is still out of work. I hope the secrets are not leaked out of financial desperation. I know someday the family will be ready to share it with the world again, and respect their need to morn before deciding how and when.

Kevan · #21 2011-04-05, 12:37pm

You don't have property when you are dead. You aren't on this planet anymore and you have no rights and I am pretty sure that wherever you are you are not worrying yourself with matters like recipes you once created.

I don't believe in carrying out the wishes of people who no longer exist. Why? You don't get to own something unless you actually exist.When you don't exist anymore, you don't get to own property.

You wouldn't carry out the wishes of an imaginary person and that's just about all you are after you are gone.

Yvon · #22 2011-04-05, 1:05pm

Pam (PittsGlass), why did you say that the Zimmerman "white was the best in the biz" - did it work better with other colors and/or remain stable whereas other whites do not? Just curious.

Thanks.

Yvonne

zen-mom · #23 2011-04-05, 1:37pm

Probably because it actually stays white and doesn't go translucent when it's blown out.

Pam also does furnace work.

Kevan · #24 2011-04-05, 1:45pm

Well I have a LOT of Zimmerman white frit.

Enamel white, dense white.

Who's your daddy now?

zen-mom · #25 2011-04-05, 1:50pm

Well, unless your gonna start puttin' some of it up for sale...

Yvon · #26 2011-04-05, 2:16pm

Sorry about the questions not being about Z99, but thanks for the information on the white by Zimmerman, Donna. Sometimes when colors (such as Z99) are no longer available, I figure something new is around the corner to catch our attention, even if it has to be from a different manufacturer.

Now, with enamel white and dense white - differences? I think I have one or the other. Since the white is no longer posted for sale by Olympic Color Rods (glasscolor.com), I cannot quickly do that search on my own. Again, thanks.

Yvonne

beadbroad · #27 2011-04-05, 7:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by alb6094

I don't think there's anything wrong with that because hearing others helps us to evaluate our own responses and feelings and gives us the opportunity to grow.

.

I agree. This got me to thinking about how I'd respond if it was someone who had developed something more critical than a really pretty purple. Would I take the same philosophical stance if it were a cure for diabetes? Are there circumstances where I could endorse torture to get information? I don't know. I probably knew when I was 20. Not knowing those things about myself is probably why my lampwork is craft, not art.

Thank you again for your posts. This has been the nicest disagreement I've had with someone in a very long time.

alb6094 · #28 2011-04-05, 7:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by beadbroad

I agree. This got me to thinking about how I'd respond if it was someone who had developed something more critical than a really pretty purple. Would I take the same philosophical stance if it were a cure for diabetes? Are there circumstances where I could endorse torture to get information? I don't know. I probably knew when I was 20. Not knowing those things about myself is probably why my lampwork is craft, not art.

Thank you again for your posts. This has been the nicest disagreement I've had with someone in a very long time.

Me too.

SilverReflections · #29 2011-04-05, 7:49pm

As someone who works in science, I always think it's a shame when information isn't shared. Some important gene sequences are now patented which I think just hinders progress and the exchange of information and new discoveries.

On the other hand, this is just glass. I have no problem with the family keeping their secrets for use later (or not), that is their choice. I'm sad however; I too love that purple and hate to see it disappear... especially since I didn't stock up on it before it was gone lol. I am curious to know if anyone has tried making powdered EDP and seeing if it behaves similarly? Frits and powders are some of those things I just prefer buying and not making myself but maybe one of these days I'll give it a shot.

Tina

squid · #30 2011-04-05, 7:51pm

Just think if Stradivarius had only shared his secrets.