Reichenbach Deep Black alternatives?

danieljanse · #1 2024-06-20, 3:29pm

I am sooo wanting to try anything lacy, veiny, webby. I have seen many excellent examples using Reichenbach deep black but it is nowhere to be found. I get OK reactions with Effetre Intense Black but nothing like those I've seen with RDB.

Any suggestions for fun color combos, black or not, that give that that crazy-lace magic?

KJohn · #2 2024-06-20, 10:34pm

Usually Rbach deep black is very hard to get those reactions from unless you are blowing shards. There is a tut on etsy for that. Intense black gives me much better webbing but you really have to cook it.

A neat idea is to make some SIS (dk ivory & silver leaf) and use that. Also could try silver glass thin stringers.

echeveria · #3 2024-06-21, 7:15am

Interesting. I use deep black because I find it to be more stable, especially for fine stringer work. And wow even Artyco is out. Their last run sold out fast. If you subscribe to OCR’s back in stock notifications you can jump on it when it’s back in stock.

KJohn · #4 2024-06-21, 12:50pm

Yes I use deep black for hair fine stringer work as well. They had just stocked it again at OCR this last month or so? It did go really fast! But i heard Rbach is melting again so I hope they will get some more soon.

But for webbing I would look at some of the others for better results.

KJohn · #5 2024-06-21, 1:16pm

Naos had a really cool tut using both silver leaf and IB (intense black) lemme see if I can find it

KJohn · #6 2024-06-21, 1:36pm

I can't find that one but here's some more info

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showth...5087452&nojs=1

danieljanse · #7 2024-06-22, 8:59am

Hi KJohn, I appreciate you suggestions and glad you think I can get good results with Intense Black. I bought a LOT of it direct from Effetre in large rod format. I was glad my assumption was correct that the Murano glassblowers have access to this size color bar and Frantz came through for me to obtain some. I also bought a nice transparent red and Smalto white which is an excellent contrast color. I just hope they make other colors available as production ramps up.

Anyway, my intense black webbing attempts have been marginal. I always use dark ivory as a base. I have used stringer, cane, frit and powder. I can get some reaction but in order to do so I have to apply so much heat that it actually burns out both the black and the ivory. Glory hole heat is never enough and neither is my Nortel Mid-range. In order to get the color to "bleed" I have to use my oxyhydrogen hand torch which seems to be just too intense.

The photos show a vase made with some IB stringer (thinly applied cane) and IB shards. Finally I show some SIS applied...nicely webbed. I've watched videos of beads in the torch giving rise to webbing but I'm afraid the size of my work makes it tough to get the right amount of heat without scalding it. The glass actually starts to bubble beneath with intensity of the oxyhydrogen. I thought that might look cool but it burns out the color and makes any patterning blurry.

I'm thinking of trying to make some beads and work up the scale to my blown glass. At least then I will know what to look for in the flame. I may also need to switch back to oxy propane in my hand torch.

KJohn · #8 2024-06-22, 3:40pm

Hmmmm thats interesting. I like them but i see what you mean, very frustrating! Do you think frit would give you better results? The stringer has to be really fine for small beads, I don't know how it scales. Those are larger pieces than a bead, so I think that the stringer might be too thick and takes too long?....The SiS had good results! I think for webbing that some movement is good.

This is the tut i was thinking of but it's not available on Etsy now, sorry perhaps you could contact Naos?
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh....php?p=4849671

I asked Ikuyo as her webbing tut isn't up on Etsy, i'll report back. That is the one that uses Rbach Deep black, I believe.

KJohn · #9 2024-06-22, 9:46pm

Ok Ikuyo sent me the link, here it is if anyone wants to take a look

https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/7939..._home_active_1

designerbeads · #10 2024-06-23, 7:49am

have you tried the 2-layer shards (marbeled shards) technique?

danieljanse · #11 2024-06-23, 10:26am

I only found out about the RDB technique after watching Ikuyo's tut. I wrote her an email to ask if she had a RDB alternative but did not hear back. I got the following with some IB shards...its on a light pink Effetre transparent. Some webbing, perhaps.

Overall, my bead making tests were very telling. Movement is the key. As you suggest, KJohn, that final heat that makes the entire bead MOVE is what I am not getting. I'm not really sure that I even can, but at least I know what I was doing was wrong. Pretty sure my torch isn't going to keep the entire bubble that hot and drippy. Maybe I'd need one of those gigantic boro setups. I'll crank up my glory and give it a shot.

What is the 2-layer shard technique? If it's self-explanatory, which shard colors work with it? Thanks.

KJohn · #12 2024-06-23, 2:01pm

looking at all this again, I think you are using too much black. Also you can rake to help with movement, or just heat along the sides. 104 can get drippy easier if you spot heat. Good luck

designerbeads · #13 2024-06-24, 6:36am

a video here shows some of the shard thing- https://www.google.com/search?q=lamp...u_3SwhXeE,st:0

designerbeads · #14 2024-06-24, 6:40am

if that doesn't work try - https://www.youtube.com/@scottwoodresearch

102.14 - Special Effects Shards pt.2 - 104 glass Demo

jesnbec73 · #15 2024-06-24, 9:50am

ASK's Belladonna glass has one called 'Black Diamond' that is really good for fine detail and it stays black even when it's pulled very thin.

danieljanse · #16 2024-06-25, 9:30am

Thanks for the shards videos. I love Robin's Youtubes...she has helped me a lot. She doesn't really HEAT her shards though in either of these vids. I think her first bead would have been even cooler if she had gotten some webbing.

I think you were right-on KJohn. I looked back at the Ikuyo tut and she really blew those shards thin. I had used some of my color bar and blew out the first ones on a blowpipe. I thought those were thin. LOL But I did it again at the torch with a little blowtube and got the transparency that she did.

IB does turn a little purple when you do this. It's much better than normal Effetre black but the RDB shards looked more black in the tut. I will try the Belle Donna Black...I don't mind spending the boutique prices on color if I can make shards. They go a long way!

The first pic shows my successful attempt at webbing with the thin IB shards. I had to get this REALLY hot. Even then, my threads of the IB did not web. I will actually make thin stringer and try it out. I've been touching cane to the piece and applying it really thin. Other pic is some frit applied on dark ivory which did web pretty nicely. I think I used the H2 torch here and it started to lose color intensity a bit.

KJohn · #17 2024-06-25, 1:17pm

Nice progress! And yeah for the first one that stringer is way too thick. You really want more hair fine size. Although I'm not sure if it will work well on that scale in terms of the visible effects being large enough to be seen. I think you're on the right track with the IB frit. I dont think Belladonna Black will web, you could ask? That's a good black anyway. A friend of mine gifted me a rod and I've been meaning to get more

danieljanse · #18 2024-06-28, 9:35am

I never just browse glassblowing images but had a little down time. Check out the work of Peter Layton from London Glassblowing. This looks like a wrap was made of webbed black on white and then applied to the blue material.

I wonder if this would be possible on bead scale. Might be easier to get a webby "twisty" prepped ahead of time and applied as the bead would never have to be super-heated.

Ikuyo got back to me and found the Canadian supplier Color Fusion as a source for RDB. Looks like they have a pretty complete catalog.

One thing that concerns me is from a conversation I had with Kathy at CiM...she has a low opinion of the compatibility for Reichenbach 104 colors. Anything I get from them will be carefully tested.

echeveria · #19 2024-06-28, 10:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by danieljanse

Ikuyo got back to me and found the Canadian supplier Color Fusion as a source for RDB. Looks like they have a pretty complete catalog.

A bunch of us tried really hard to order from Color Fusion last year when OCR ran out of a lot of colors. It's basically an email process, and I do not know of anyone that actually was able to ever complete an order. Emails were enthusiatic!! Happy to have your order!! Will be in touch soon!! We have a sea container of those colors on the way!!

No invoice ever sent, no glass ever actually purchased. This was true for several people trying to order, so not just an isolated case of one order slipped through the cracks. So, good luck with that.

danieljanse · #20 2024-06-28, 3:58pm

I just spoke to the owner (Sylvie) on the phone and she could not have been more helpful. She is headed out for a holiday but was making the effort to get my glass in the mail. I would give her the benefit of the doubt even if it did happen to a group rather than an individual.

Sometimes a business can take a while to hit its stride and people make mistakes. Soon she says a new website will allow direct ordering. Or maybe I should shut my mouth shut and keep all that Deep Black for myself. LOL!!!

KJohn · #21 2024-06-29, 12:25pm

Well that's good news! Let us know how it turns out

danieljanse · #22 2024-07-01, 9:46am

More updates on this topic. I made shards with Bella Donna Black Diamond and applied them to dark ivory powder. Depending on the thickness of the shard, I was able to achieve nice webbing. Again, the shards are super-heated in order to get the holes in the black. It's a very intense, heavy web line with this glass. First pic was a thinner shard. I applied black then ivory then the shards...contrast could have been better but I think the Black Diamond makes the point.

I am starting to think that black shards will always give this kind of effect. My RDB is moving through the mail so I'll look forward to trying it out and comparing.

ESC · #23 2024-07-01, 9:49am

I've been following your progress and I think the first pic is outstanding! Looking forward to seeing what the RDB does for you.

KJohn · #24 2024-07-01, 10:19am

wow those are gorgeous! we are starting a july thread for show & tell soon, you should post there too!

rainygrrl · #25 2024-07-01, 6:27pm

This thread is fascinating -- wonderful brainstorming plus new-to-me info and great eye candy!
I agree with Kristin, please consider posting in the show and tell!

rainygrrl · #26 2024-07-01, 6:38pm

I love those vessels of Peter Layton that you posted! They reminded me of Jennifer Geldard's enameled heart tutorial from quite a while ago. Her technique for the bottom of the heart is to add a layer glass then dip in enamel, then glass... Her bead is is on the left, mine on the right (looks so similar

). I'm including mine because the enamel is much more obvious.

These are solid beads but I wonder if a gather could be layered in this manner then blown. I like your idea about making a pre-webbed rod. Seems very feasible to me.

danieljanse · #27 2024-07-02, 12:02pm

You guys are great and I appreciate the comments.

Rainygrrl I like the enamel idea! I have a little bit of the Moretti/Thompsons. I imagine enamel is "soft" and allows the stiffer colors to move, congeal and therefore, web.

I have looked really close at the Layton photo and the web has a white stripe down the center. Some beaders have seen RDB give a similar stripe when applied to some base colors.
https://kitzbitzartglass.blogspot.co...-stringer.html

I'm just hoping that this black is pretty special. I can't get thick shards to web, but Ikuyo says RDB will do it.

I tried to make a webbed rod but the webbing pattern just stretched out to something undefined.

rainygrrl · #28 2024-07-02, 8:52pm

Thanks for the link. I love reactions like that! And I have cirrus and RDB,so I’ll probably have to give it a try. I don’t really know anything about the “softness” or viscosity of enamels (maybe the same thing?) but they can certainly lead to some interesting effects.

Thanks for posting your observations on the pre-webbed rod. Oh well, it seemed like a good idea…. Can’t wait to see what you learn next!

danieljanse · #29 2024-07-09, 1:01pm

Just got my order from Color Fusion and it was super-well packed. I was impressed by her customer service and the current strength of the US dollar (vs CAD) is a nice perk. I'm going to invite the owner to address any concerns there were about past ordering...I would certainly order again!

I'll be a week or so to test the RDB as I'm waiting for some supplies and need to make more batch. My observations with Belle Donna Black Diamond showed a nice webbing upon heat that unfortunately blurred out as my piece expanded. This may be a problem for all webbing techniques in blown glass. It is a little maddening to see a neat web form with tight lines only to look like I simply applied frit in the end. Hoping RDB is "special...

Just for kicks, I made shards from an Effetre color called Amazon. As a golden-opaque I expected it to act very differently than black, but I got webs from it also. I think it's just a matter of really getting thin shards...just about anything will work. Of course, the other half of the equation is the base color. I've been using dark ivory powder but maybe something else would be better.

ESC · #30 2024-07-09, 6:53pm

I've only done a little blowing but could you apply the stringer or shards when you've blown it out a little more? I know it would be a little harder to control once you heat the snot out of it but could it be done?