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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2016-08-18, 8:34am
melzip melzip is offline
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Default Changing from Propane to natural gas HELP please

Long time no see everyone. Took a long break from beadmaking due to some personal issues and now getting back to it.

I am switching from use of Propane on my Nortel Minor to natural gas and am nervous about it.

Are there peeps here who wouldn't mind walking me through getting the proper and safe techniques to get myself up and running? So far, a plumber has come in and run a new fuel run to my torch and apparently it is set up to .5 psi. As for fittings, regulators, hoses, I have no idea and he wasn't sure either as he has never made this type of fuel run.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you!
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I work on a Minor burner, with an oxy-con and household natural gas
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  #2  
Old 2016-08-18, 8:59am
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I have natural gas and the I just made sure I had a separate valve more than six feet from my bench so I can shut it off without having to get to near a flame if something should go wrong.

I do not use check valves or flashback arrestors because the pressure is not enough to make them work properly.

You will want to make sure your torch is designed to work with such low gas pressures. Mine is a GTT Cricket.

Some torches will not work properly with low pressures and your candles will not move far enough off the face of the torch to keep it from overheating. That over heating could damage the valves of the torch permanently.

Remember that in an emergency there is another shut of valve at the gas meter out side and you may want to know the exact location of a wrench to turn it off just in case.

Other than making sure the torch is designed for the low pressure you should not have any problems.

I would contact the maker of your minor torch to verify that it will work ok.
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  #3  
Old 2016-08-18, 10:28am
queenofsheba52 queenofsheba52 is offline
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Hi Melissa, glad you are getting back to melting glass!

Everything Phill said is good -- as always

I run my Nortel Minor on household NG too. The only problem is that at 0.5 pressure, the torch runs very cool. For example, I can't get a glass gather hot enough to blow shards, and I can't get most silver glass to work properly (although pilot error might be involved LOL). I can't get a true dragon's breath flame. Everything goes much more slowly,,.but I'm used to it and it's OK for me. I'm definitely not complaining!!

I asked my gas company about increasing my household pressure but they said no, yours might say yes.

I hope you can get setup soon!

Best regards,
Helene
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Old 2016-08-18, 11:55am
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Thank you both for your help.

I am using a Nortel Minor. I called and talked to Peter at Nortel and he said my torch was sufficient for using NG. I recall talking to someone else who said there should be a shut-off valve inside also in case of emergency. Does that sound right? This was so you didn't have to go outside to shut all gas off.

To be honest, i'm not all keen on it burning cooler, I love how hot my torch blows with Propane and O2. I hope it's not too much of a difference.

As far as regulators, do either of you have them? And a "B" fitting is sufficient from the torch to the natural gas line?

Thanks again for all of your expertise!
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Old 2016-08-18, 3:50pm
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Hi Melissa it was also discussed here
http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240583
I love my NG set up. It's enough for my murrini's up to 2 in.
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Old 2016-08-18, 6:18pm
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I have a mini cc and my DH set it up to have the pressure increased by the gas company. It's measured by a different usage rate than PSI. He installed a step down so that the other things, hot water heater, kitchen stove etc., can operate at the normal level. There is a cutoff about 8 feet from the torch inside and another just outside the back door. I adore how clean it is to work with the NG.

Andrea
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Old 2016-08-18, 7:00pm
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All of your posts are so helpful, thank you. Keep them coming!
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Old 2016-08-18, 8:31pm
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I do not have regulators on either my natural gas or my 10lpm oxycon.


You will want to remember that often it takes some 10 or 20 seconds for the natural gas to reach the torch face once I turn it on at the valve some 13 feet away from the bench.

So don't let that throw you for a loop.
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Old 2016-08-19, 7:04am
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I run my miniCC on NG at household pressure, with no regulator in the line. I asked Carlisle about installing the torch with NG, and they made me a small contraption (for lack of a better word) that has a quarter turn ball valve, a flame arrestor, and a nipple to connect to the flexible tubing on the torch side. The flame arrestor works differently than a flashback arrestor, and doesn't require the high pressures that the flashback arrestor does. I ended up with two quarter turn valves in series, but no harm in that.

I often work at a local studio using NG with Minors, with O2 in cylinders. The NG is boosted to 5 psig, and there is a regulator on the booster, to run 11 torches. We sometimes have 5-6 people making boro marbles on those torches at once. They are limited to about 1", or 1.5" if you're really patient, but it works just fine.

koko
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Old 2016-08-19, 11:51am
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So it sounds like for the mini CC's Carlisle is helping adapt fittings to make these work. Stupid question: Do you think Carlisle would do that for me? I spoke with Peter yesterday from Nortel, and he mentioned something about booster but didn't know where to get one and said I should ask the NG community of beadmakers to see if I could find out.
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Old 2016-08-19, 5:13pm
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My research some 8 or 10 years ago had NG Boosters running outrageously expensive to purchase.

But unless you are running a teaching studio or are trying to work boro in the larger sizes I would not think it would be worth the costs.


But again, that was some time ago.
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Old 2016-08-19, 5:59pm
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I agree with Phil, they are pretty expensive. Here's one, which looks like what we have in the studio:
http://www.gesswein.com/p-7590-g-tec...-boosters.aspx

Recently someone posted one for sale in one of the FB destash groups, for $850, but I don't think it sold. I'd try the household pressure first and see if you need it?

The Carlisle people were very helpful, so could be worth a call. That was just for the flame arrestor and fittings, which aren't specific for the miniCC. I was buying a torch from them, so we just added it on, but I think they'd also sell you just those parts.

I've since read that surface mix torches don't need a flashback or flame arrestor, and some of the others responses in this thread don't seem to have them. For me, I found too many conflicting opinions about it, and am pretty risk averse, so it was just worth it to me.

koko
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Old 2016-09-23, 7:57am
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Good morning,

I spoke with Louanne from Carlisle this morning and she said I need nothing more or new as far as adapters for my Nortel. She says the torches are basically made the same from the NG standpoint and should hook up just the same.

I'm a little confused by this because I see suggestions for adapters, etc. when switching from propane to NG.

As far as hoses are concerned, my husband said mine look worn and I should buy new ones for this hookup. I'm assuming I can order the same type I was using? Red and green?

I might be thinking more into this than I should, but it honestly scares me into thinking I should just hire someone to put in a basement window so I can fit the hoses out and connect to propane like before. ??
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Old 2016-09-23, 1:57pm
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I will add that if you go back to using propane you will want to make sure your hoses are marked as "Type T".

If you wind up with hoses designed for acetylene the chemistry of propane will cause the hose to disintegrate from the inside out.

On my set up I hunted for fittings from the black pipe natural gas line to a "Christmas tree" fitting and put a cut section of black hose from the 'gas grill parts' section at the hardware store to another Christmas tree fitting with a male threaded end which I connected to my red hose.

The natural gas in my home is running at something less than one quarter pound per square inch of pressure and all of the flash back arrestors I tried would not allow any gas through at that low of pressure.

My gas stove and my furnace do not have flash back arrestors so I am not overly concerned although I do take every other precaution I can think of;
I have a shut off valve some ten feet away from the torch right next to my hanging fire extinguisher and both of those are on the route I would take if I was running away from the bench.

Please remember that propane is heavier than air and a leak can pool in basements while natural gas is lighter than air and will float up and out of a room / house if it gets a chance to.

And I see that I am repeating myself from above.
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Old 2016-09-23, 5:59pm
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My husband is doing something very similar to what you have. He is using a black coupler to join the male barbed fitting (ID 1/4") with the 1/2" gas fitting. The fitting looks like this...

(didn't realize the picture was so tiny! sorry)

The 1/4" male end will go in the end of the red hose, have a clamp, then attach to the black coupler (which looks like the black gas pipe) and that will screw into the 1/2" fitting on the gas line. Hoses are definitely T-grade. The line runs to an opening in the wall to my right that has a shut-off valve. Does this sound similar to your setup?

Thanks for your information, I appreciate it. This can get pretty confusing with all the names of the pieces used, and correct terminology to use when asking questions, etc.
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Old 2016-09-24, 1:00am
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Yes it does sound similar Melissa.

It looks like you are thinking everything through twice and that's the best way.

If you feel uncertain you might ask a firefighter to come and look over your installation but then again that could depend on how touchy your community is to unusual setups and code and permits and such.

Most places a persons home is their castle and you can do mostly what you like except for glaring violations.

In most cases the real decider is going to be your insurance company.

I have heard horror stories of a tree falling on the house claim getting denied because the owner stored 2 five gallon cans of gasoline in the basement.
Supposedly there was no fire but because it violated a clause in the insurance contract the company used it as an excuse to get out of paying the tree damage claim.

Of course it could just be rumors run amok too.
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Old 2016-09-27, 7:34am
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I will post pics of the progress, but just an update, my torch is officially set up and running.

Will check back soon, thanks again for your help!
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  #18  
Old 2020-10-13, 10:18am
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Hi all. Trusting that everyone is taking care at this most difficult of times.

I have a simple question - is it fairly standard for those of us who decide to switch over from propane to natural gas, to use our existing propane hose? (With correct fitting at shutoff valve)

I take it that a good quality orange/red iso3821 propane hose (6mm) bore - has no issues with natural gas?

Thank you for your thoughts.
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Old 2020-10-13, 10:15pm
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I have found no trouble doing that my self. My hose is yellow / green though so you should check with a welding supply store or the manufacturer just to be on the safe side.

I plumbed natural gas in black pipe right up to my torch bench and only the few feet are hose line.

Do remember that what you do not want to do is use acetylene hose with propane.
Propane fuel will cause acetylene hose to disintegrate from the inside out.
If you are lucky the gummy substance it makes will clog up your torch inner parts forcing you to send it to the factory to get it cleaned before it causes the hose to fail and rupture.

Also remember that natural gas only has something like one quarter of the BTU heat that propane has so don't be surprised if you feel like you can't get out of 2nd gear with it.

I do know that propane hose preferably should be black hose from the bar-b-que parts isle and should be marked "T" type.
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