Boro feedback... why do you use it or not use it??? - Page 4

Cosmo · #91 2006-01-10, 12:29pm

I thought I knew too. What I had thought was a "neutral" flame wasn't really neutral, which explained why I couldn't get certain colors from certain rods. Did some experimenting, and now I can get the colors I'm looking for.

I still keep some Amazon Night near my torch and check my settings periodically, especially when I get a new tank of propane or oxygen.

Mr. Smiley · #92 2006-01-10, 1:33pm

Chad, looks like a NS experimental called Tidal Wave... enjoy it, because if that's it, it's all gone. I have one stick left.

There was a bunch of odd lot colors in that bundle I sent out. I should have held on to them huh.

Cosmo · #93 2006-01-10, 1:42pm

Drat. I really like it. I'm going to post on a couple boards and see if anyone has any they want to part with...

HardwoodTrailGlass · #94 2006-01-10, 2:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

.

GTT's need higher pressure and are oxy hogs... but I love my Mirage.

Why did you pick the Mirage?
What did you start out on and how was your progression to this torch?
I've read people are happy w/ the Cuda, what other torches are better for Boro?

Carrie

Cosmo · #95 2006-01-10, 2:19pm

In my limited experience with GTT torches, I have noticed that a GTT will out perform any other torch of the same size. They get hotter, and the heat seems to penetrate into the glass faster than other torches.

I got to work on both a GTT Phantom and a Bethlehem Barracuda recently. They are about the same size, but the Phantom heated the work up to where it got all loose and drippy much quicker. The Barracuda seemed to heat a larger area, but took longer for the heat to penetrate.

Having said that, I'm still getting a Barracuda. I just can't justify the extra cash (plus the fact that you have to wait months) to buy a Phantom.

Mr. Smiley · #96 2006-01-10, 2:41pm

I started on a Beth PM2D and Carlisle CC. I was doing mostly larger lathe work and have several hand torches as well. I got my Mirage and sold both of my other two big torches without hesitation. It just suited the type of work I was doing at the time. I use the center fire for my jewelry, so I'm basically just running a Lynx most of the time for pendants. I've also worked on the Cuda and the Piranha... love them too. They don't have the super fast penetrating heat the GTT's have, but they are not slow by any means. The GTT's are just that fast. They also suck down at least twice the oxy, so you definitely have to pay to play. I suggest the cudas all the time. It's a great soft glass torch... it's a great boro torch... and the fuel consumption is awesome. I'd work on a cuda in a heartbeat.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't buy anything except GTT or Bethlehem. National makes a cheap entry level product, but it's like a Yugo... you get what you pay for. Nothing against them, they work, I just won't own one. National makes a good premix work horse hand torch, but I hate their bench torch... I think it's the 8M. I owned one and all I can say is

.

I fired it up one time and knew it wasn't for me. It may be great for some things, but definitely not what I do. The mini CC is still a Carlisle, so it's not for me either. Nothing against Carlisle and the people who run them, but the carbon build up and spitting of crap on my work got old really really fast. That's my personal torch review. I haven't found "the" perfect torch yet, but I know they'll develope one in time.

Heidi von Frozenfyre · #97 2006-01-10, 3:37pm

I really want to give up soft glass all together. Really tired of it - so I'm taking it to Chicago for my class and see if I can unload it. I have quite possibly 600 - 800 pounds.

My Mirage gobbles up soft glass. Even if I use the Lynx innerfire - it just eats it up. So my Torch doesn't like it at all... it likes the flavor of boro.

I agree with most statements in this topic - but I'm going to add something else

My Aloe Vera plant is getting huge.

I haven't had a burn EVER with boro. Soft glass.. pop pop OWCH!
No blisters, no scabs no owies no holes in your shirts.

My work table stays nice and clean no little broken pop-offs.

Love the colors - love the stiking colors the bestest.

and Ditto.... everything else.

But best of all... if I hadn't started working with boro... I never would have found my bestest buddy Brentielicious von Graberglassen.

Heidi

DesertDreamer · #98 2006-01-11, 7:44am

I keep meaning to post to this thread and keep getting distracted.

I'm a glass ho, it's that simple. I bounce around from Moretti, to Gaffer (and all it's leetle friends, like Uroboros), to boro. I gave up on Bullseye because I really like hot colors and they don't (or didn't, I think they're finally coming around) have many rods in hot transparents and I don't like working with cut strips, and don't want to waste time pulling strips into rods.

I like all of the glasses for different reasons. They each have their own special qualities....Moretti for interactive reactions, Gaffer for ethereal, wispy effects, and boro for vividness. There are things I can do with each kind of glass that just don't seem to happen with the others, and I don't want to give up one for the other. I suppose if someone forced me, I would give up Moretti first, but it wouldn't be willingly. However, these days I find myself enthralled with Gaffer more than anything else.

BUT.....what's my "museum piece" made of (the piece that got into Trajectories)????? BORO!!!! And I love making boro flutters! (My flutter shape seems to be the one thing that crosses all the glass flavors for me.) They're more of a challenge, I can't get the extreme edges I can with softer glass, but wow are they fun.

So, like I said. I'm a glass ho.

P.S. I'm making my Tucson shopping list.....and the only rod on it is boro!!!! Gotta get me some pomegranate and persimmon!

bclogan · #99 2006-01-11, 8:22am

OK. After reading this thread I'm definately intrigued.

I'm working on a Minor with an oxycon and NG. From the sounds of it, that's not going to work. My oxycon runs a real "reducing-ish" flame, so I doubt that I could get enough O2 out of it for a good oxidizing flame.

Right now I just can't afford to upgrade, but what should I be thinking of upgrading to in the future? Since I'm using NG, would the Betta be the best option? And a new oxycon to go with it .... <heavy sigh>

Boy, now I wish I had bought one of your packs of shorts....

And where can I get this cheap clear Boro? Our only local shop (Delphi) is not cheap! I paid almost $5 for one rod of clear to use as punties. Of course, it was a looooooong rod, but still. I didn't think that was cheap.

EDITED to add:

And Heidi - you can just bring that glass a little farther to Mi and unload it at my house...! LOL!

Cosmo · #**100** 2006-01-11, 9:03am

Okay... since we're on the subject of boro...

Brent, have you (or anyone else) used much boro dichroic? I'm getting ready to buy some, and the place I buy from carries Dichroic Alchemy. They have 4 different lines of dichro - http://www.mountainglassarts.com/s.n...category.25/.f - and I'm not sure what the real difference is, or if there is any. I'm looking for something to put inside vortex marbles, so I'm not sure which one to pick.

Heidi von Frozenfyre · #**101** 2006-01-11, 11:58am

I purchase dichro (boro) scrap from ABR. LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT! and a little goes a long way.

*edit* Anything by Coating By Sandburg (CBS) is fabulous. I will never use another brand. The cheaper brands just burn off.

Heidi von Frozenfyre · #**102** 2006-01-11, 12:06pm

I wanted to show off a couple perfume bottles that I made with boro that were on my exhibit in Prague, Czech Republic at the Museum of Decorative Arts. They both sold on eBay last week

For this one the point was to use new materials but implement old handtool techniques - so the sterling was all done by hand with no modern power tools. Those are oplas areound the belt.

This one is "Tibet" and Terri-S from LE purchased it

DBN Designs · #**103** 2006-01-11, 1:37pm

I keep getting excited about boro and then try using my red max and minor and just get fustrated (using tanks for oxy).

Thinking maybe I shud just give up till I can afford a better torch?

Thanks for such a good thread.. still wanna go home and play with boro

Dan

Cosmo · #**104** 2006-01-11, 1:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBN Designs

I keep getting excited about boro and then try using my red max and minor and just get fustrated (using tanks for oxy).

Thinking maybe I shud just give up till I can afford a better torch?

Thanks for such a good thread.. still wanna go home and play with boro

Dan

Better torch? Why?

I use a MidRange and have no problem. What is the problem you are having with your torch?

Mr. Smiley · #**105** 2006-01-11, 2:02pm

Chad, Dichro Alchemy is great stuff. Better than CBS- sorry Heidipop, but it's true. I never thought I'd say that either. CBS still rocks, but DA has some really nifty stuff that beaks up in lines. Google them and find their website. The owner is super nice. If all else fails, give him a call. You may want to call and see if they have any scrap or if he can give you some guidance.

DesertDreamer · #**106** 2006-01-11, 2:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Better torch? Why?

I use a MidRange and have no problem. What is the problem you are having with your torch?

What Chad said! I have a MidRange, too and it's quite satisfactory. And I have a serious case of torch lust for the Red Max, which I've gotten to use at the Mesa Arts Center several times. It ROCKS with boro. Eager to hear what the trouble is.

DesertDreamer · #**107** 2006-01-11, 2:17pm

Heidi, those are gorgeous!!!!!! The metalwork is stunning.

Brent, does the DA dichro need to be coated? I'm sooo lazy that's one reason I haven't jumped into dichro with boro (despite having several ounces of CBS scraps stashed away).

Cosmo · #**108** 2006-01-11, 2:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

What Chad said! I have a MidRange, too and it's quite satisfactory. And I have a serious case of torch lust for the Red Max, which I've gotten to use at the Mesa Arts Center several times. It ROCKS with boro. Eager to hear what the trouble is.

I'm actually getting ready to order the Red Max conversion kit for my torch. It's about $199, and it converts a MidRange or Major to a Red Max. My oxygen supplier is going to love me now...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Heidi, those are gorgeous!!!!!! The metalwork is stunning.

Brent, does the DA dichro need to be coated? I'm sooo lazy that's one reason I haven't jumped into dichro with boro (despite having several ounces of CBS scraps stashed away).

Depends on who you talk to. Some people say you only heat the non-coated side when working it. Milon Townsend says to anneal the dichroic before using it, and then he heats the coated side.

I went ahead and ordered some random pieces today, so hopefully soon I'll have some first hand experience with it.

DesertDreamer · #**109** 2006-01-11, 3:29pm

Oh Chad, you're gonna have fun! I'd get the conversion in a heartbeat if I didn't have to deal with low pressure NG (and I'm NOT going back to propane!) Maybe someday when I can afford the gas booster.....

Just Nancy · #**110** 2006-01-11, 4:53pm

I'm going to read the other replies later so I may be duplicating others.

Why no boro? Yet?

No good concept of what I can do with it. The little I've tried (ornaments from tubing) don't do anything on my bobcat. And cost. I thinking I'll need a different torch, more oxygen, and then all the glass. Oh and not knowing what to do about annealing. (I said no good concept of what to do with it or where to start. I meant it.

)

Mr. Smiley · #**111** 2006-01-11, 5:09pm

I haven't tried annealing it first myself yet. I did try some preannealed strips a long time ago. I was so new, I burnt the crap out of it too. It's basically about heat control. You can get the glass hot enough to manipulate dichro without burning it... but it's a very fine line if it's not encased.

Firelilly · #**112** 2006-01-12, 5:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Cindy, I think you hit on a good point... it is different. It definitely doesn't move as fast as soft glass in the same flame... but if you work soft glass in a boro flame, you run into the same problems. It's all about heat control and having the right tools for the job. While boro requires more heat to move at a good beadmaking pace, it pretty much stops moving when you pull it out of the flame. That's something I really had to get used to with soft glass (I dropped glass all over my table for a while

)... once soft glass is liquid, it stays liquid much longer. With boro, once the heat is removed, it stiffens up really quickly. This ability to work in slower motion, lends to a lot more control. I imagine what ever glass you learned with, you will have some adjusting when you try the other. Both hold some really insightful lesson about the other glass. I find the similarities far outweigh the differences in the long run. Every little trick or technique can be applied somewhere in working the other glass.

So if you're a newb, just starting to melt glass, do you think it's a bad idea to start working with both types of glass at the start? Do you think the differences in working with the two would make it too confusing? Would it be better to start out with soft glass and get to know what dance it does in the flame, and then learn a different dance later with boro? It's seems like getting to know the flame for both types of glass might be too much to bite off all at once. But then again, I'm a bear of very little brain. What might be difficult for me might be easy peasy for someone else just starting out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I will hopefully be doing a few videos soon and I am expanding into teaching around at different studios. I think a video would be better than a book... since boro really requires the different flame atmospheres and that would be easier to show in full motion.

Alright! *taps on her watch* Hurry up then! Times'a wastin'!

Loving this thread! Thanks Mr. S. and thanks to all who've contributed.

Lil

Mr. Smiley · #**113** 2006-01-12, 6:06am

I'm not sure how to answer your question about new people working both types. What may work for somebody may not for somebody else. I would rather teach boro to new people... just because it moves slower and doesn't get out of control liquidy. The striking colors are a bit more to understand than with soft glass... but there are a bunch of really nice boro colors that you don't have to strike. If you do work with both glasses, be certain NOT to mix them up. It's a real pain to sort out, especially if you don't know how to do it. I'd say to get a boro sample pack and go for it! The new NS smaple packs will have some clear in them shortly. Yep, just one of the improvements we're making for beaders to try boro easier.

HardwoodTrailGlass · #**114** 2006-01-12, 6:25am

Just a side note: I ordered some clip ons, level 5, for my regular torching glasses. My eyes were bothering me.........so.......
I will be taking a break from the boro until they come in.

Glad you started this thread, I am excited about boro again.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far, and hopefully more will be revealed.

Cosmo · #**115** 2006-01-12, 6:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firelilly

So if you're a newb, just starting to melt glass, do you think it's a bad idea to start working with both types of glass at the start? Do you think the differences in working with the two would make it too confusing? Would it be better to start out with soft glass and get to know what dance it does in the flame, and then learn a different dance later with boro? It's seems like getting to know the flame for both types of glass might be too much to bite off all at once. But then again, I'm a bear of very little brain. What might be difficult for me might be easy peasy for someone else just starting out.

Well, I taught a new lampworker the other day using only boro. He wanted to make pendants and marbles, so it would have been a waste to start him off with soft glass. However, he went to school to do neon signs, so he was already somewhat familiar with glass and working with flame.

Having said that, I don't see any specific reason not to practice with boro. But, it does work differently than soft glass, and it's trickier to get certain colors, so it would be easier to get discouraged.

I do teach beginners in soft glass for two reasons: First, it's cheaper to buy, so it doesn't cost as much. Second, it doesn't require nearly as much heat, so it's more user-friendly for someone who doesn't have a lot of experience.

It won't hurt to try it. As a beginner, torch time is torch time. I would suggest just buying some clear boro and playing with that for the time being. It melts a little faster than colors, and flame atmosphere doesn't effect it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by butterflykj

Just a side note: I ordered some clip ons, level 5, for my regular torching glasses. My eyes were bothering me.........so.......
I will be taking a break from the boro until they come in.

Glad you started this thread, I am excited about boro again.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far, and hopefully more will be revealed.

That's another good point. Working with boro requires more eye protection than working with soft glass. You need to get some glasses made for boro work.

River Horse Studio · #**116** 2006-01-12, 7:46am

Ok....

I have a question.... When I am working with just clear Boro, I like to just use my dids and not my boro lenses. I find that its just easier to see. I have shade 5 and that might just be a little too dark. Is it ok to just use your didys if you are only using clear?

Three Muses Glass · #**117** 2006-01-12, 8:33am

What is the best boro black to use for really, really black? NS has like 3 different ones, Ninja, Midnight and...I forgot. Also, what 3 colors could you not live without? I'm going to call in an order today for black, clear and more clear and a few colors and would really appreciate some suggestions!

Cosmo · #**118** 2006-01-12, 8:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holly Young

Ok....

I have a question.... When I am working with just clear Boro, I like to just use my dids and not my boro lenses. I find that its just easier to see. I have shade 5 and that might just be a little too dark. Is it ok to just use your didys if you are only using clear?

I would use at least shade 3 with any boro. But you should probably ask Mike Aurelius for sure on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Three Muses Glass

What is the best boro black to use for really, really black? NS has like 3 different ones, Ninja, Midnight and...I forgot. Also, what 3 colors could you not live without? I'm going to call in an order today for black, clear and more clear and a few colors and would really appreciate some suggestions!

I like GA Black Violet or NS Onyx for black. Onyx is really a "black", where Black Violet is a dark purple. Onyx can boil if you overheat it. Black Violet is more resistent to boiling. GA Cobalt 5 or 6 is also a good substitute for black and won't boil, but it will reduce.

The colors I use most in boro are black, NS Blue Moon, GA Triple Passion, and Elvis. I also am really fond of GA Solara, NS Multi, and GA Silver Strike 5.

Mr. Smiley · #**119** 2006-01-12, 8:55am

I like Blue moon, AP or DAP, and a cobalt if I only could get 3 colors. Ding dang it, I would hate that... there are so many nice ones. I use onyx for black. It's a super duper saturated green based black.

I wear dids all the time... ok, well not all the time, some times I have a shade 3, but when I'm working small I do. Sorry Mike. Just had dinner with Steve Selchow last night. He's been working boro over 30 years with dids... big... small... what ever. He saw good enough to drink a few beers and eat some chicken nachos. His vision is perfect. I'm not advocating this... just letting people know. I also run with scissors.

Firelilly · #**120** 2006-01-12, 12:12pm

Thanks to you both, Brent and Chad, for all the food for thought. Getting a sample pack of boro and giving it a try sounds like a good idea.

Worst that could happen is that I'd have fun!

Lil