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  #1  
Old 2011-08-15, 12:10am
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SerendipityArtGlass SerendipityArtGlass is offline
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Default How do you feel about this?

I have spent alot of time cruising this site and many others for lampwork ideas and how-to instructions. I frequently bookmark a page or bite the bullet and print the article out on my printer wasting ink and paper. Sometimes I know I saw something about "it" but am unable to find the article again. How many times has this happened to you?

In an effort to get a handle on all this information, I have started to create a database of all the articles in PDF format on my computer for my personal use (nothing wrong with that). However, I can see how having a copy of my "database" could really help others, especially because the PDF's could be sorted into folders of the person's choosing and even renamed by the user.

And let me make one thing perfectly clear..the database consists totally of information freely available on the internet and DOES NOT contain any "paid for" tuts. Anyone who wanted to take the time could produce their own database of the same information. And I would of course remove an individual's post if there was an objection from the individual. Also, the distribution of this information would be to the same individuals that the information was intended for. I'm not going to open up on Amazon to distribute the info...just a posting here if anyone was interested.

I would like to sell copies of all this data to cover costs of material (the data is going to require a flash drive for distribution) and my time...It's a lot of work searching out the articles, cutting and pasting and consolidating into individual PDF's. I have hours and hours invested and haven't even scratched the surface of information yet. So far I have netted 200+ articles dating back to early 2002 including how to make a kiln controller for $25.00, a really cute duck, how to wire a cab and vessels, striped beads, flower beads, gravity beads.....you get the picture. I have read through posts and followed leads all over the internet.

So I decided to put this up for vote and comments. Thank you.

WHOOPS...didn't get the poll. I'll just take comments.


Serendipity, Perhaps you should add this to your very first post. Then if anyone comes accross this thread for the first time, they will be less likely to feel the need to comment and perpetuate this thread. I think everyone's feelings have come through loud and clear, and you have responded approprieatelyl

Darrell

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerendipityArtGlass View Post
Thank you all again for the input. I believe that I'll just keep my database for myself for my own use and only share the information by giving someone a link. That way everyone still has traffic to their websites which is to receive business and/or donations and I won't have the headache. Now I can continue on collecting and naming files that make sense only to me without any need for future vision. Thanks again.
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  #2  
Old 2011-08-15, 12:21am
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sounds like you've been to my website. I'm gonna have to think on this. I think a big plus of the free tutorials is a link to the person's website, possibly generating sales, publicity etc..... If this info is PDF, no linky to easily click, less traffic to our websites.
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  #3  
Old 2011-08-15, 3:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerendipityArtGlass View Post

In an effort to get a handle on all this information, I have started to create a database of all the articles in PDF format on my computer for my personal use (nothing wrong with that). However, I can see how having a copy of my "database" could really help others, especially because the PDF's could be sorted into folders of the person's choosing and even renamed by the user.
.

I believe that information freely given on the internet is public domain for usage. However if your intent is to "repackage" posts of tutorials into PDF format including the author's verbiage and possibly any photos, it makes me a little squeemy ..... I don't know that it is illegal or even immoral, but it just doesn't sound right.

A database with web links sounds yummy. A database with links to files included with the database.... Not so much.

Before I get flamed, forgive me if I have misunderstood your intent.
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  #4  
Old 2011-08-15, 5:32am
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I think you are going to find people that don't like the idea of you taking in money for tutorials and advice they gave for free. I understand your thinking, you aren't going to make a profit. It probably wouldn't bother me, but I don't think everyone will feel the same.
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  #5  
Old 2011-08-15, 5:51am
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Didn't Karen Hardy already do this? I thought somewhere I saw a collection of LE tuts for sale made by her? But maybe I'm wrong
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  #6  
Old 2011-08-15, 6:08am
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Originally Posted by BeadBlossoms View Post
Didn't Karen Hardy already do this? I thought somewhere I saw a collection of LE tuts for sale made by her? But maybe I'm wrong
Yup

And I've come across the same list somewhere else too - I have a link somewhere
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  #7  
Old 2011-08-15, 6:34am
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corrected by Karen
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  #8  
Old 2011-08-15, 6:53am
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I think that if people pay you for this, they aren't actually paying for the information they are paying you for your work and your costs (like the flash drive). Lots of people are willing to pay someone to take information that is readily available for free in numerous places and confine it into an easily used 'database' as you call it.

I'm not one of them, I prefer to dig but I don't consider anything I print out as wasted ink or paper. I wouldn't care if you included my free tutorials and got paid. I'm way past caring about that kind of thing anymore. However, I think from a legal standpoint, you are lifting copyrighted text and images from the internet and reselling them. That could be potentially problematic for you.

There are online collections of free lampworking learning materials and links. I can think of 3 good ones right off the top of my head. I would imagine the people who run those are the ones you would be stepping on a bit.

Online lists are more easily update-able. What happens when someone buys your database and then it changes? Will this pdf be downloaded from a web page or emailed? Can you keep the file size low enough for email? Just things to think about.

Good luck to you.

~~Mary
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  #9  
Old 2011-08-15, 8:13am
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Just wondering if anyone out there would actually pay for information that is already right there at their fingertips. I can't imagine you would get to many customers and plus the legal troubles of profiting from others hard work.
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  #10  
Old 2011-08-15, 8:49am
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Another point to consider is that some information that were offered free at one time may no longer be. Unless you stay on top of it (e.g., checking links to all of the entries in your compilation frequently), you may be breaking the law.
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  #11  
Old 2011-08-15, 9:54am
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Maybe it's just me...but I've always found that the "thrill of the hunt" is part of the fun of learning a new technique. I've spent many joyous hours pouring over everything I could find about something I was interested in trying before attempting it (and many times even afterward). I've also found that as my skill set has improved, my attraction to certain techniques has changed. Some techniques that held little or no interest for me when I started, now attract me. I don't see a need for a compilation of techniques that are already freely and readily available - and I also think that it takes away from the "mystique" a bit. You may or may not know that there is already a very comprehensive listing of techniques on WetCanvas.com in the Glass area as well. I wish you well if you decide to attempt this challenge - it's not one I would wish to have a go at! Please feel free to use the tutorials that I have in place if you wish.
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  #12  
Old 2011-08-15, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame Crazy View Post
Just wondering if anyone out there would actually pay for information that is already right there at their fingertips. I can't imagine you would get to many customers and plus the legal troubles of profiting from others hard work.
Yep. They would pay. Lots of people don't like hunting for stuff. I wouldn't pay, but lots would.
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Old 2011-08-15, 10:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kandice View Post
Yes - Karen however got permission from the people in her compilation if I am not mistaken.
yep
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  #14  
Old 2011-08-15, 10:56am
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Thanks everyone for your opinions and comments. I should probably clarify that I wouldnn't be doing this to get rich. I suspect that the flash drives (the info is too large to email) would cost around $10.00 plus packaging and postage so I was thinking around $15.00-20.00 neighborhood.

I also would like to point out that not all of the information is "tuts". I have been reading through all the posts and for example found a post where someone is asking how to connect 2 oxy's together. A person responded and showed pics and part names for what to get at the store. Great info! that I then have cut and pasted into a PDF so it is readily available and at my fingertips.

I too enjoy the hunt....that's what got me started on this for my personal use. I wanted to clean up my bookmarks and all the other stuff on my hard drive. I waste so much paper and ink printing out info (which I can never find easily) that I decided it should all be on computer where I can use Search Companion to find articles. I will also be able to arrange the folders to further aid in organization.

Please keep the comments coming. I appreciate all the input.
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  #15  
Old 2011-08-15, 11:07am
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one thing to consider is, if you feel the need to ask others if this is an acceptable idea, that alone indicates you are not entirely comfortable with it, something in you is already questioning this idea.

It's sort of like asking "is this OK to wear to work", if you have to ask, it's probably not.
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Old 2011-08-15, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kandice View Post
It doesn't really matter that you're not planning on "getting rich". The problem is that you are taking text and images that were created by someone else, repackaging them and selling them. Ethically very unsound, and legally dubious, unless you get permission from each and every person you are lifting from.
I would think that this ^^^ sums up how most of the writers of this info feels . I myself would not feel good purchasing this just for this reason alone ,just doesn't seem ethical
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Old 2011-08-15, 12:23pm
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I personally wouldn't feel right buying it. But then again I love to spend hours on the Internet searching through everything I can find. I bookmark the pages and go back as need be. I have spent so much time on kandices color addictions blog, wet canvas, bookmarking Marys tutorials on her site,Hayleys blog, bunches of artists blogs,subscribing to threads here on LE that I want to go back to, that's part of my fun. I am sure there are people out there that would by something with all this information but I just couldn't. I would rather give monetary tips to the people that have written the FREE information to show my gratitude for what they have so kindly shared with the lamp working community. Jc herrell has the Joy of Stringer on her website for free and then she also has a Tips paypal button. I would feel horrible paying someone besides her for that information. I guess what I am trying to say is I wouldn't feel right buying it and I would also feel bad for the artist that wrote it because they wrote it for Free out of kindness and now someone would be selling it. Even if that someone was not making money, I think the original author of the article should be compensated in some way for their work being used . Ok, I'm done rambling now. This really just got me going
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Old 2011-08-15, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j2canoe View Post
Maybe it's just me...but I've always found that the "thrill of the hunt" is part of the fun of learning a new technique. I've spent many joyous hours pouring over everything I could find about something I was interested in trying before attempting it (and many times even afterward). I've also found that as my skill set has improved, my attraction to certain techniques has changed. Some techniques that held little or no interest for me when I started, now attract me. I don't see a need for a compilation of techniques that are already freely and readily available - and I also think that it takes away from the "mystique" a bit. You may or may not know that there is already a very comprehensive listing of techniques on WetCanvas.com in the Glass area as well. I wish you well if you decide to attempt this challenge - it's not one I would wish to have a go at! Please feel free to use the tutorials that I have in place if you wish.
This.
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Old 2011-08-15, 12:36pm
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I think she has her answer now.
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  #20  
Old 2011-08-15, 12:38pm
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The minute someone puts something up on their website, that *they* wrote, they technically own the copyright. It doesn't matter if they don't state that they own the copyright with the little (c) symbol. Legally, they own that material.

Even if you weren't charging money, you could get into trouble if someone found out you re-packaged their words in another form, though most people wouldn't prosecute if you weren't making money. But it can happen.

And someone else mentioned public domain, which does *not* mean up-for-grabs for others to profit from. The fact that you are charging money only to re-coup your costs would not hold up in court. Buyers would be buying the information, which you stole, no matter how good your intentions.

Sorry to be blunt, but you would be setting yourself up for a bad situation if you go ahead with this without getting the written permission from every single owner of the texts.

I've done training in this area as part of building online curriculum, and copyright laws are a lot tougher than the general public realizes, especially once money is involved in any way.

If you really wanted to give back (and it sounds like that *is* where your heart is) the best bet would be to provide a series of links where others could go to get the information. That way, you are not using any copyrighted text, and people are still getting traffic to their website (a VERY important consideration if people are advertising!). It may not be as glamorous as a how-to guide, but it would be legal!
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  #21  
Old 2011-08-15, 1:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kandice View Post
It doesn't really matter that you're not planning on "getting rich". The problem is that you are taking text and images that were created by someone else, repackaging them and selling them. Ethically very unsound, and legally dubious, unless you get permission from each and every person you are lifting from.
this
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Old 2011-08-15, 1:20pm
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I concur that the copyright infringement on copy and images alone is going to be a big issue. Free on the internet doesn't mean free for someone else to redistribute.

This is another very good example why this is a very bad idea:

Quote:
Originally Posted by New2glassgal View Post
JC herrell has the Joy of Stringer on her website for free and then she also has a Tips paypal button. I would feel horrible paying someone besides her for that information.
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Old 2011-08-15, 2:41pm
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Over the last I don't know how many years I have filled countless notebooks with info I printed off the web...everything from tutorials (free & paid for) tips, bead porn, color ideas, etc. I have LOTS of these binders and even more info stored on my computer but the idea of compiling it all for sale... sounds like a bad idea to me. IMHO unethical
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Old 2011-08-15, 3:01pm
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Thank you all again for the input. I believe that I'll just keep my database for myself for my own use and only share the information by giving someone a link. That way everyone still has traffic to their websites which is to receive business and/or donations and I won't have the headache. Now I can continue on collecting and naming files that make sense only to me without any need for future vision. Thanks again.
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Old 2011-08-15, 3:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerendipityArtGlass View Post
I have hours and hours invested and haven't even scratched the surface of information yet. So far I have netted 200+ articles dating back to early 2002 including how to make a kiln controller for $25.00, a really cute duck how to wire a cab and vessels, striped beads, flower beads, gravity beads.....
I knew I had seen most of these free tutorials collected all on one site before and I could never find it again. I think Lori did the Cutie Ducky if I'm not mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
sounds like you've been to my website.
And thank you Melinda because when you posted this I knew it had to be your website. I've spent the last hour and a half reading everything. Well not everything, but now that I know where it is I'm so excitied I can go back to it. I appreciate all the hardwork you and everyone did putting it together!
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  #26  
Old 2011-08-15, 3:59pm
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When I wrote free tuts, the intent was that they are FREE - plain and simple. Please do not include any of my materials, commentary, posts, tuts, etc in your compilation if you plan on charging for it.
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Old 2011-08-15, 4:15pm
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And thank you Melinda because when you posted this I knew it had to be your website. I've spent the last hour and a half reading everything. Well not everything, but now that I know where it is I'm so excitied I can go back to it. I appreciate all the hardwork you and everyone did putting it together!
Thanks for the kind words. Way back when I did that website, there were no good online glass pics and tuts were few and far between. I keep saying I need to update it, but time never allows. Yes, Lori did the cute little ducky.
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  #28  
Old 2011-08-15, 6:49pm
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Kevan Kevan is offline
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You can't take articles off of the NY Times website or Pioneer Woman's and sell it. It's a copyright infringement. You also cannot take information on a forum and sell it.

I really find it difficult to understand why anyone would think this was ok or even legal to do.
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Old 2011-08-16, 4:03pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Gotta agree with Kevan on this. I dont think it is ethical to do this. Period.
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Old 2011-08-16, 5:48pm
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Trey Cornette Trey Cornette is offline
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Please do not include any materials authored by myself in this project.
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