Art glass, or just glass?

[glassbead]

Well, I've been thinking a lot about this lately and wanted to get some other opinions. Do you consider what you make to be art glass? Have you always considered it to be so, or was there a breakthrough that made you feel like you might finally be there? What do you think is the dividing line, or is there one? I'll start with my own ideas, and hopefully won't get blasted. I just want to know what others think. And who knows, by the end of it all, I may even change my ideas!
I am a lampwork glass beadmaker who has been making beads for about eight years. I have always been very uncomfortable when people classify me as an artist because of what I do. I am more comfortable being classified as an artisan. Until about two years ago, I certainly didn't feel that what I was doing could be even remotely classified as art. Decent beads, but I still had an awful lot to learn. (And still do.) It did seem like something happened at that time. It wasn't sudden, but I got the distinct impression that I knew what I was doing. It was kind of an amazing feeling. Of course the newness of it has worn off now, but I do feel like my beads show a certain something (most of the time) that wasn't there before.
So I have to say that I don't feel that working with glass necessarily makes one an artist, or that all lampworked, blown, or fused glass is art glass. And even now, I don't know whether to classify what I do as art glass. Certainly not all of it is, and what I feel might fit in that category might not meet the expectations of others.
Well, that's my perception. What's yours? Ok now, be nice!

[ROC]

I'm no expert, but this looks like art to me.

[glassbead]

Thanks, that is one that I'd say yes to. Ya'll don't get to see all my marginal beads. Stop by some time and I'll show you!!!

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by glassbead

Well, I've been thinking a lot about this lately and wanted to get some other opinions. Do you consider what you make to be art glass? Have you always considered it to be so, or was there a breakthrough that made you feel like you might finally be there? What do you think is the dividing line, or is there one? I'll start with my own ideas, and hopefully won't get blasted. I just want to know what others think. And who knows, by the end of it all, I may even change my ideas!
I am a lampwork glass beadmaker who has been making beads for about eight years. I have always been very uncomfortable when people classify me as an artist because of what I do. I am more comfortable being classified as an artisan. Until about two years ago, I certainly didn't feel that what I was doing could be even remotely classified as art. Decent beads, but I still had an awful lot to learn. (And still do.) It did seem like something happened at that time. It wasn't sudden, but I got the distinct impression that I knew what I was doing. It was kind of an amazing feeling. Of course the newness of it has worn off now, but I do feel like my beads show a certain something (most of the time) that wasn't there before.
So I have to say that I don't feel that working with glass necessarily makes one an artist, or that all lampworked, blown, or fused glass is art glass. And even now, I don't know whether to classify what I do as art glass. Certainly not all of it is, and what I feel might fit in that category might not meet the expectations of others.
Well, that's my perception. What's yours? Ok now, be nice!

You'll confuse people if your keep referring to the finished product as "art glass". That term has been traditionally used to refer to the coloured glass used for stained glass or kilnforming. The term "glass art" is more widely accepted as describing art made from glass.

That said.... whether or not something is "art" is entirely personal perception. If you want to call your work art, you can do so. You can call it anything yu want to call it. My personal perception is that the term "art" and "artist" have been so extensively overused, neither term any longer has any legitimate relevance. Some "artists" pile stacks of dog poop and call it art. Other "artisans" create magnificent work and don't care what it's called.

My thoughts? Just do good work and to hell with what it's called.

[ROC]

You're funny. Everything in your etsy is lovely. Maybe what differentiates between artist and artisan has to do with the process as well as product? Sometimes you go through motions (ppp), sometimes you have an idea and bring it to fruition, and sometimes you have happy accidents.

I may have an idea how you feel. I even have a hard time calling my space in the garage a "studio." As for the product, things I think are pretty lousy, others see as beautiful. That bee-holder's eye thing, ya know? (chuckle)

(Ha! Dennis, you jumped in while I was still typing!)

[Firebrand Beads]

Being an occasional copy editor, I agree with Dennis: in the term "art glass," art is modifying the noun glass. In the term "glass art," glass modifies the word art. So manufacturers produce Art Glass, and you turn it into Glass Art! Not sure if it's worth all of 2 cents, but there ya go...

[glassbead]

Curmudgeon, thanks for clarifying the art glass/ glass art thing. Yes, you're right in so many ways. And my dog will be happy to know he has been reclassified as an artist!

[glassbead]

ROC- yes, the going through the motions thing is part of the difference. Most of my accidents seem to be kind of un-happy. So my motto is: PAY ATTENTION!

[Hayley]

Having both my bachelor and master degrees in fine arts (not that it makes any difference except that I was surrounded by "aspiring artists"), I personally consider what I do with glass as craft, not art.

[StOrM]

so what is the difference between artist and artisan?

[scoutycat]

Hayley - Why craft not art? (jc)

[ROC]

I had to look it up, too.

Artist: one who practices an art; one who creates objects of beauty.

Artisan: skilled manual worker

(from Webster)

[Firebrand Beads]

My dictionary seems to think the "artisan" is more involved in a "skilled trade" than the artist is, per se. In general usage, it appears that "artists" are considered higher in the pecking order than "artisans." Like at art school, the "artsy-fartsy" folks generally lord it over the "artsy-craftsty" folks, right Hayley? Meaning if you study Art History you are somehow "better" than a painter, potter or printmaker... at least that's how it was where I went to college! ;->

[glassbead]

Your dragon tail bicone is lovely, Hayley, whatever you want to call it! From webster's New World Dictionary
Artisan: A worker in a skilled trade; craftsman
Artist: 1) A person who is works in, or is skilled in the techniques of, any of the fine arts, esp. in painting, drawing,, sculpture, etc. 2) a person who does anything very well, with imagination and a feeling for form, effect, etc.
Does that help? really?

[glassbead]

Oh, I knew the worms would find their way out of the can eventually!

[glassbead]

Oh hayley, speaking of worms, the word crafts is something I do try and divorce myself from because it's just TOO all encompassing.

[Firebrand Beads]

I hope no one takes offense at my "artsy-craftsy" versus "artsy-fartsy" comment! That's just the language we used to use, to joke around in the art dept at UofO in the 1980's...

[Wyldchlde]

I don't often post but felt the need to reply to this and it is not intended to be rude at all...just my opinion.Not everyone has the vision,the talent,the skill,the love or the passion to do what y'all do.When ever i look at the work posted,from beginner beads to what i think of as "the masters",it is all art to me.Take it from someone who can't do what you all do with glass,its all magic.

[glassbead]

Wylde, that's not rude, it's a compliment!

[StOrM]

that helps understand better....i think i would like to be called an artist then

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by glassbead

Oh hayley, speaking of worms, the word crafts is something I do try and divorce myself from because it's just TOO all encompassing.

My preferred way to explain the difference between a craftsperson, an artisan, and an artist is,

Craftsperson - has good fabrication skills but doesn't produce original designs.
Artist - creates and designs but doesn't necessarily have fabrication skills.
Artisan - equally skilled at design and fabrication.

I have always preferred to be called an artisan.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by scoutycat

Hayley - Why craft not art? (jc)

To me (and that's just my opinion!), when something is functional, it usually is considered "craft." I had my emphasis in graphic design for my degrees, even tho I took all the drawing, painting, sculpture and photography classes as all my peers, we were never considered artists as they were because our work was functional.

Originally Posted by Firebrand Beads

My dictionary seems to think the "artisan" is more involved in a "skilled trade" than the artist is, per se. In general usage, it appears that "artists" are considered higher in the pecking order than "artisans." Like at art school, the "artsy-fartsy" folks generally lord it over the "artsy-craftsty" folks, right Hayley? Meaning if you study Art History you are somehow "better" than a painter, potter or printmaker... at least that's how it was where I went to college! ;->

Actually, the pecking order was that the art historians didn't even count when it comes to artsy-fartsy . . . it's the painters, sculptors, printmakers who were "better" than the photographers, and us graphic designers were considered the lowest in the order even AFTER the architecture students (who were even in the School of Art)!

For what's worth, I had my undergraduate degree from University of Hawaii and graduate degree from Yale.

Originally Posted by glassbead

Your dragon tail bicone is lovely, Hayley, whatever you want to call it! From webster's New World Dictionary
Artisan: A worker in a skilled trade; craftsman
Artist: 1) A person who is works in, or is skilled in the techniques of, any of the fine arts, esp. in painting, drawing,, sculpture, etc. 2) a person who does anything very well, with imagination and a feeling for form, effect, etc.
Does that help? really?

I consider myself an artisan and not an artist when I create glass beads. Some day I would love to create glass sculpture, thus hopefully will be considered an artist!

Others may consider themselves artists - using Webster's second definition.

As it was said before - I think we are all entitled to call ourselves whatever we like!

Originally Posted by glassbead

Oh hayley, speaking of worms, the word crafts is something I do try and divorce myself from because it's just TOO all encompassing.

I know - the word "crafts" is broad . . . shall we come up with a word somewhere between "art" and "craft?"

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

My preferred way to explain the difference between a craftsperson, an artisan, and an artist is,

Craftsperson - has good fabrication skills but doesn't produce original designs.
Artist - creates and designs but doesn't necessarily have fabrication skills.
Artisan - equally skilled at design and fabrication.

I have always preferred to be called an artisan.

Interesting, Dennis . . . I can't say I agree 100%. I do woodworking and build furniture that is original in design and my craftsmanship has been called high quality . . . thus with woodworking, I consider myself a good craftsman (craftswoman, whatever) and not an artist or an artisan. . .

[Dennis Brady]

I know - the word "crafts" is broad . . . shall we come up with a word somewhere between "art" and "craft?"

Artisan.

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Interesting, Dennis . . . I can't say I agree 100%. I do woodworking and build furniture that is original in design and my craftsmanship has been called high quality . . . thus with woodworking, I consider myself a good craftsman (craftswoman, whatever) and not an artist or an artisan. . .

Another way to view it might be to suggest that where a craftsman uses wood to build furniture, an artisan uses it to build violins. I think the appropriate label for Antonio Stradivari is master artisan.

The pecking order disputes almost always arise out of credit for creation rather than workmanship. Everybody that studies architecture or stained glass knows who designed Fallingwater. Does anybody know (or care) who built it?

[houptdavid]

Just a note...it was Walter Hall who built it and if it wasn't for changes he made in the reinforcement Fallingwater would have fallen down...so just cuz you have a degree dosen't mean you know better

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by houptdavid

Just a note...it was Walter Hall who built it and if it wasn't for changes he made in the reinforcement Fallingwater would have fallen down...so just cuz you have a degree dosen't mean you know better

Builders often refer to architects as people that draw pictures of collapsible buildings. That doesn't change the fact that art is in the design and not the fabrication. Hall may have been a superb craftsman but he could never claim his work was art while FLW is widely acknowledged as an artist - for both his architectural and stained glass designs.

Perhaps another factor in considering the difference between craftsperson, artist and artisan is that while an artist might be concerned only with the design, an artisan will be equally concerned with the engineering.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by houptdavid

Just a note...it was Walter Hall who built it and if it wasn't for changes he made in the reinforcement Fallingwater would have fallen down...so just cuz you have a degree dosen't mean you know better

Walter Hall didn't build it all by himself. He was part of a team including structure engineer, etc....and, yes, the architect himself.

In many fields, having a degree (and a license in an architect's case) DOES mean that you know better - have you ever seen the drawing set they have to put together, including details of how everything is built? . . . But they don't claim to know it all. It's the structure engineer's job to make sure that the building doesn't fall down and that the vision of the architect can be carried out.

[swamper]

Okay, I think that anyone who picks up a box of Crayolas and puts them to paper is an artist - some are good - some are not.

Call yourself what ever you like and let the public decide if they like your work.

About the "glass art" "art glass" thing - I think what we do can be called "art glass " - all lower case as opposed to what the manufacturers make "Art Glass".

I named my garage studio, "Black Bear Art Glass" because I liked idea of using BBAG for short. No one has ever told me that I was out of line so I think we beadmakers as a group stress too much over tags and labels.

Linda

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Walter Hall didn't build it all by himself. He was part of a team including structure engineer, etc....and, yes, the architect himself.

In many fields, having a degree (and a license in an architect's case) DOES mean that you know better - have you ever seen the drawing set they have to put together, including details of how everything is built? . . . But they don't claim to know it all. It's the structure engineer's job to make sure that the building doesn't fall down and that the vision of the architect can be carried out.

Who has a degree has nothing to do with it. The artistic vision came from the architect. What he did can be called art. What the builder and engineer did can't. Their function is limited to executing the architect's artistic vision. That's why all the credit goes to the architect.

If you buy a pattern to make a stained glass lampshade and select all the colours of glass and build that lamp, you will never be anything more then a fabricator. No matter how superbly you built that lamp and how great your colour selection was, you are NOT an artist. You're a fabricator. The ONLY one that can claim to having produced art is the original designer of that pattern. In the case of Fallingwaters, FLW is the artist. All others are fabricators.

As is mentioned in every discussion about what is art, there are many variables and pretty much anything can be labelled art - but there is one universal constant that applies regardless of what label anyone selects. Only the creator can claim to be an artist. It it ain't original, it ain't art. If you create a unique and original design, you can claim it's art - but no matter how fine your workmanship is, you can never do that with a copy or derivation of another design. Because there is very very little in bead design that could be considered unique or original, there is very very little in bead design that could be consideed art. It can be superb craftsmanship, but that doesn't make it art no matter how badly the bead maker wants to claim it is.

I suggest the same standard would appy as applies for copyright. If what you make isn't original enough to be protected by copyright, it isn't original enough to be called art.