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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #31  
Old 2008-12-11, 4:30am
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i took a class from a pretty famous bead artist at bead and button. she told me that she is very careful not to look at others beads as their designs find a path to her beads!What she was trying to tell me is that art influences art. i think everyone has the ability to be artists it just depends where they are on the journey. when reading the thread about who were your teachers i could see the early teachers influence on the beads. i was influenced by tom holland and sage's class. i just dont have his/her expertise and time at the torch to be as consise! i do see their influence on dustin tabor and stephanie sersich work. each artist made hisher techniques their own.
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  #32  
Old 2008-12-11, 5:13am
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I truly expect to see people making and selling what they learned from me! I tell that to students in my classes as well! I do tell them to put their own spin on it because that's half the fun of creating! A lot of my beads I make are almost impossible to re-create or get exact copies anyway! I can't even do it! Karen, when you get good at making them seahorses I want you to make me one of those "leafy" seahorses, ok?
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  #33  
Old 2008-12-11, 5:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison D View Post
If you weren't warned up front, and the seller won't refund your money, then use the info anyway you see fit. It is disreputable not to make the usage parameters clear before the sale. Since the person did not and you are out of pocket don't feel quilty for anything you do with the knowledge you paid for.



Alison

Ditto
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  #34  
Old 2008-12-11, 5:51am
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Yea, thats crap. If people dont want others selling beads using their techniques, dont write tutorials telling people how to reproduce it.
IMO-you paid for a product, use it how you see fit.
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  #35  
Old 2008-12-11, 7:38am
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For the record, anyone can make and sell whatever they want from any of my tutorials. That is all
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  #36  
Old 2008-12-11, 8:10am
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Well, I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I guess I am anyway. I would never have expected someone to put a "warning label" on a tutorial, just as I would never expect a "warning label" for a class. I just never considered that anyone would buy a tutorial, or take a class, so they could learn to duplicate the beads used in the class to teach the technique. Of course everyone knows that in order to learn a technique you must apply the technique and I was under the impression that those beads were shown in order to teach the technique. To copy the instructor's bead while learning is sometimes a necessity, but other times, just seeing how the technique is done is enough to take off in another direction using the technique. Well, as I said, reading this thread is really an eye-opening experience.

Just curiously, why would anyone go to the trouble of creating a tutorial that they will then sell for $15 if the tutorial shows and gives permission to the tutorial buyer to make the author's signature bead that they sell for, say, $35?

Obviously I have been looking at this all wrong from the beginning, I really thought it was about sharing knowledge of lampworking, not a pattern to be followed.
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  #37  
Old 2008-12-11, 8:40am
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I tend to agree with you Pam. I have purchased a couple of tutorials for the specific reason of knowing I could use the technique in my own beads. I purchased Pipyr's eye tut for using in my own family of face beads. I purchased Lydia's tut to because I already had in mind what I was going to create with it (still workin' on that) but I would never want to make an exact copy of someone elses bead and sell it. I would not want to buy a "famous" bead that was an exact copy of the original artist either. I think anyone who has been lampworking for a few years can copy any bead with an instruction booklet. That's just not where it's at for me.

But.....when you put these tutorials out there, some people will copy the beads and some won't be interested in doing that weather you say so or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Well, I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I guess I am anyway. I would never have expected someone to put a "warning label" on a tutorial, just as I would never expect a "warning label" for a class. I just never considered that anyone would buy a tutorial, or take a class, so they could learn to duplicate the beads used in the class to teach the technique. Of course everyone knows that in order to learn a technique you must apply the technique and I was under the impression that those beads were shown in order to teach the technique. To copy the instructor's bead while learning is sometimes a necessity, but other times, just seeing how the technique is done is enough to take off in another direction using the technique. Well, as I said, reading this thread is really an eye-opening experience.

Just curiously, why would anyone go to the trouble of creating a tutorial that they will then sell for $15 if the tutorial shows and gives permission to the tutorial buyer to make the author's signature bead that they sell for, say, $35?

Obviously I have been looking at this all wrong from the beginning, I really thought it was about sharing knowledge of lampworking, not a pattern to be followed.
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  #38  
Old 2008-12-11, 8:57am
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Originally Posted by WildatHeart View Post
One tutorial I have makes statements that discourage the reproduction and selling of the particular beads. So I don't think Jen is misinterpreting.

Beth
This is totally ludicrous. What's the point of selling a tutorial? It's like having your cake and eating it too and seems completely manipulative on the authors part. If you don't want the competition then don't try and capitalize on selling written works without expecting the owner of said tutorial to do whatever they damn well please with it. Anything less would be extortion.
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  #39  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Obviously I have been looking at this all wrong from the beginning, I really thought it was about sharing knowledge of lampworking, not a pattern to be followed.
I think this is true for the majority but, believe it or not, there are people that want to make EXACT replicas of tutorial beads. I know this because I've talked to several different people that feel that way. For example, one of my tutorial buyers can't afford my beads. She's a hobby beadmaker with a family and a day job. This is a "win win" situation for her because now she has her own version of the bead that she loves and she was able to make it herself.

Another individual told me that she planned to sell her tutorial beads at shows. She wanted to know before she purchased the tuts, if I would be okay with that. Then, there's a gal who got into lampworking because she's a jewelry designer who can't afford to pay top dollar for lampwork beads. She buys the tuts she likes and uses the beads in her jewelry. I could go on and on. . .

Lampwork is becoming more of a mainstream craft. You can get kits at Hobbylobby. Some crafters do not consider themselves to be artists. They enjoy crafting and because glass is such a seductive medium to work in, it appeals to a lot of people.

I had to come to terms with all of this before I could release my first tutorial. I also had to find the confidence that I needed in order to move on because I knew that once people could make versions of my beads for themselves, my own sales for the same style of beads would suffer. This is not because I thought that the market would be flooded with beads that resembled mine, it's because the beads seem to become less special once the "secrets" are revealed. Lampworkers make up a huge portion of my bead buying business. Today, I don't get orders for the floral panel style beads that I was making before I released the tutorials. It's a good thing too, because I completely lost my zest for making them.

I know I've rambled a lot here, but basically I think that if you choose to publish techniques, you have to mentally prepare yourself for the possible retirement or evolution of the technique that you may have been well known for. You have to be ready to set it free and let it go or else you'll go mad.
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Last edited by Ashtonjewels; 2008-12-11 at 9:09am.
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  #40  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:08am
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I saw an embroidery CD with licensed Snoopy and other Peanuts designs on it yesterday. Written on it was that the designs could be used for personal use only and not for resale. Snoopy and Peanuts are LICENSED/Copywrited designs.

TOTALLY different than what's going on with "for sale" tutorials right now.

I don't know what the legality issues are of someone selling their knowledge and then prohibiting someone from using the design (I think the tut writer doesn't have a leg to stand on to be honest), but this chaps my hide.

I write a lot of tuts FOR FREE for the exposure in magazines. If I took any kind of offense at someone using the techniques (or even EXACT replicas of the beads/objects) I teach in these tutorials and then selling their finished work, then you could call me a fool. Even more so if I sold the knowledge and made money from it.

That's my two cents. If it seems like a flame on the people who think that it's wrong to profit from something that is unlicensed and uncopyrighted, maybe it is. You can't have it both ways.

Janelle
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  #41  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:10am
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I actually agree with you, Pam. I don't buy tutorials to get a pattern for a bead...I buy them to learn techniques I can use for my own stuff. But not everyone does that, and I am realistic enough to know it. I have no interest in making sure nobody is selling beads just like mine, so I'm certainly not going to put a warning on my tutorial that I have no intention of backing-up.

I do not however, think there is anything wrong with someone else doing it. I totally understand it and as long as the buyer knows what they are getting in advance, I see no problem whatsoever.

In response to the 'What's the point of selling a tutorial?' question:

The point is teaching people how to work glass to get it to do certain things. You have to teach a project to get the lesson across. The project or design itself isn't the point of the class...the techniques used to make the project are the point. The project is the reward at the end. Your prize for doing the work. It isn't the goal. The goal is better glass skills and a few new tricks up your sleeve.

Like I said, I put out tutorials that I was willing to let go because I didn't want to ask to limit people.

If I want to teach dots, but don't want to give away my best ideas...then I teach dots on a less important bead. If you put the whole design out there, people are going to want to use it.

~~Mary
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  #42  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
In response to the 'What's the point of selling a tutorial?' question:

The point is teaching people how to work glass to get it to do certain things.
I'm not disagreeing with you, Mary, but I think recently, most people writing and selling tutorials are doing it for the money-making opportunities - and that's ok.
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  #43  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:20am
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I confess, I'm a copy cat. I try to make the exact bead in the tutorial and practice until I get it. That way I feel like I have truely mastered the technique. Of course once I get it I'm bored with the whole thing and move on, incorporating bits of what I learned into my future work. When the time comes for a show and I'm scrambling to put enough stuff together I'll often grab those practice beads if they came out nicely. I never realized I should feel guilty about selling them. I do always keep my very first try though. Usually because it sucks but also because I like to look at it and figure out what I did right or wrong and what I should focus on.
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  #44  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
This is SO TRUE!! I took Michael Barley's class after saving and saving and saving. I had wanted to take his class FOREVER! He was (and is) one of my favorite beadmakers. Halfway throught the class, I realized that I was feeling very sad about learning the "secrets" to his lovely beads. They lost some of their magic for me. I regretted taking the class in some ways. I learned TONS in the class, many techniques that I can use in my own work, but sometimes, I would just rather have the "magic"!

Oh dear, that's so sad. I never thought about that but I could totally understand it.
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  #45  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
This is SO TRUE!! I took Michael Barley's class after saving and saving and saving. I had wanted to take his class FOREVER! He was (and is) one of my favorite beadmakers. Halfway throught the class, I realized that I was feeling very sad about learning the "secrets" to his lovely beads. They lost some of their magic for me. I regretted taking the class in some ways. I learned TONS in the class, many techniques that I can use in my own work, but sometimes, I would just rather have the "magic"!

Astrid posted some holiday beads yesterday that I felt that way about. I kept looking and looking at them and other people were praising her up and asking her how she did it. I was hoping at the time that if she revealed it, she wouldn't do it in that thread because I don't want to know! I just want to be fascinated!
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  #46  
Old 2008-12-11, 9:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelle Zorko View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you, Mary, but I think recently, most people writing and selling tutorials are doing it for the money-making opportunities - and that's ok.

Yes, that's ok, but that wasn't what I meant.

Someone asked what is the point of selling tutorials if you aren't going to let people make the beads. I just was trying to convey that the tutorials aren't about the beads...they are about what you learn from making the beads. The beads aren't the goal...the skills are the goal.

Sorry if I wasn't very clear with that.

~~Mary


edited to add: It was THESE beads, I went to find a link and see that she did post how to make them. That was totally sweet and generous of her, but I didn't want to read it!
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Last edited by Moth; 2008-12-11 at 9:53am.
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  #47  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:08am
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They lost some of their magic for me. I regretted taking the class in some ways. I learned TONS in the class, many techniques that I can use in my own work, but sometimes, I would just rather have the "magic"!
Me too! The loss of my captivated audience was the the HARDEST part for me. This, and this alone, has put me back up on the fence about future glass tutorials. Some of the "loss" may be only in my head, but it's still hurtful. I miss the many emails that I used to get from my bead admirers. I don't get them anymore and THAT makes me sad.
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  #48  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:10am
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Just in case I'm being vaguely referred to here - this is a quote from the last page of "Think Pink":

Quote:
So, now that I’ve purchased and read the tutorials, can I make ‘Flower Child’ and ‘Barbie Bling’ beads and sell them? Or would that be considered “copying”?

To be honest, I don’t know. I used to spend a lot of time thinking about such issues. These days, I have more interesting things to think about - so I’m going to leave this one up to your own judgment.
If I were you, I wouldn’t want to be known as someone who sells other artists’ signature designs, so I’d probably play around with the techniques to develop something I could call my own. Like I said, whether you do that or not is up to you.
Is there something wrong with saying this?

As I may have... errr... mentioned once or twice, the "Am I copying you?" question is one I get asked often, and I assume people want to know my honest opinion, so that is my honest opinion. I have no expectations of no one ever selling similar designs, and I would never "go after" someone who did.

As I have said before, I still think everyone should do what feels right to them. No guilt trips intended.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
I just realized that each and every book by Jim Kervin has a section at the end about "Developing Your Own Style" where Jim talks about selling knockoffs of the artist's work. I am looking right now at the section in the book on Akihirio. He (Jim) makes an interesting statement, "Use this information as a springboard to develope your own style". Fantastic! I couldn't have said it better!!! That statement doesn't make me feel guilty for making the beads. It makes me WANT to make my own beads, using the techniques I learned in the book.

Now, why is a statement like this okay in Jim's book, and not okay in a tutorial? (Really, Jim's books are small collections of tutorials) I don't see anyone complaining about the statements in Jim's books. Why are we complaining about similar statements in tutorials? Are tutorials (and by inference, tutorial writers) less in some way? I am just really confused.
I was thinking of this too.
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Last edited by sarah_hornik; 2008-12-11 at 10:29am. Reason: typo
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  #49  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:20am
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When tutorials first started coming out for purchase, I asked about the copying thing. I really didn't feel comfortable with the answers I got. I would feel guilty when I was trying to make the bead using the tutorial, thinking uh-oh, I'm trying to make this bead exactly like the tutorial. The police will be knocking on my door any second. I don't know how else to learn to make the bead with a tutorial but to copy exactly, so I didn't purchase any tutorials until Helen Simon said we would have her blessing to copy and sell the beads made using her tutorials.

I was already making roses at the time so flowers were my obsession. She offered a technique she had developed over 6 or 7 years to make them more secure and less likely to break. I was all for that.

However, how many ways are there to make a flower? If you are trying to make them secure as she has and that is the main purpose, how can you deviate that much and do them much differently?

It's just all so confusing to me and I can't stand the guilt. If the advice given on this thread were taken it would certainly make it more appealing to me to buy more tutorials. I'm going to hurry and click post reply before I chicken out, lol.

Last edited by Carols Glass; 2008-12-11 at 10:25am.
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  #50  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:23am
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For me ..It is about the beads. That is why people ask for tuts on an artists beads. For example Kimberlys seahorses. I would buy the tut because it IS the seahorse.

But having said that here is my take..I have bought 6 tuts..all from Anne.

I bought them for the patterns and the techniques on that bead. Awesome and
I tried to figure them out myself first but fell short. I was not trying to figure them out to copy as a goal but learn the technique.

But here is where TRUE artistic talent comes into play: as I was reading her tuts I was already in my mind changing them...colors and patterns and sometimes shapes of the bead.

I think Kimberly said it best..most teachers would love to see students take what they have learned and APPLY themselves to "push on", or develope your own style based on the tuts, but unfortunately a small percentage of lampworkers are only copycats.

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  #51  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtonjewels View Post
...I had to come to terms with all of this before I could release my first tutorial. I also had to find the confidence that I needed in order to move on because I knew that once people could make versions of my beads for themselves, my own sales for the same style of beads would suffer. This is not because I thought that the market would be flooded with beads that resembled mine, it's because the beads seem to become less special once the "secrets" are revealed. Lampworkers make up a huge portion of my bead buying business. Today, I don't get orders for the floral panel style beads that I was making before I released the tutorials. It's a good thing too, because I completely lost my zest for making them.
I wholeheartedly DISAGREE, Lydia! On the contrary, I followed your tutorial (first tutorial I did step by step the way you showed it without putting my own "spin!" lol!) . . . yes the "magic" was revealed but personally I am more in awe than ever! Your urn bead still sits on my desk and I fondle it all the time, marveling at its perfection. I will surely want more of your work in the future because now I can truly appreciate what it took!
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  #52  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:34am
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Aww, thank you Hayley!!!! You totally made my day!
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  #53  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:38am
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I can completely see both sides of the discussion here. Personally, I can't even follow the tutorial exactly without putting my own spin in it . . . my goddess from Lavender Creek's tute was slender, a body I would want to have and not the one I will have! lol! . . . my first Helen Harvest floral was a hibiscus . . . only tutorials I followed exactly were Lydia's Floral Panel, Shari's Rainbow and Andrea's Moth Wings.

Having said that, as Carol as mentioned, if you purchased a sculptural tutorial such as Bird, Pansy, or Dragon tutorial, with the exception of changing the glass and colors used, there is not that much "spin" you can add to it.
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  #54  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:47am
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LAJ LAJ is offline
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I think that though this is a great discussion, we are losing sight of the OP's request. She merely asked that if any of the tutes have a disclaimer on them, that info should be divulged PRIOR to the sale of the tute. I don't think that is asking too much. This way those wanting to purchase the tute know what the expectation is beforehand.
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  #55  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:51am
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Hayley Hayley is offline
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Good point Lea - we are not here to pass judgment on what the tutorial writers should or should not do as long as they are up front about their expectations!
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  #56  
Old 2008-12-11, 10:53am
sarah_hornik sarah_hornik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
I think that though this is a great discussion, we are losing sight of the OP's request. She merely asked that if any of the tutes have a disclaimer on them, that info should be divulged PRIOR to the sale of the tute. I don't think that is asking too much. This way those wanting to purchase the tute know what the expectation is beforehand.
I totally agree that if someone is selling a tutorial and expecting the results of that tutorial not to be sold, they should let buyers know that prior to purchase.
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  #57  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:12am
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So if a tut says something to the effect of...

"...mass production of this design is prohibited..."

How is "mass production" defined?

I don't have to worry about it because with so many things out there I want to try EVERYTHING and cant' stand to make the same thing over, and over, and over...

If I did sell something from a tut I would certainly give credit to the person who wrote it. Is that enough? My finished product is generally based upon the tut but then takes off in mid-stream in it's own direction as my muse guides me, and as I use what materials, colors, pieces, parts, etc. that I have available.

~Rachelle
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  #58  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:19am
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It doesn't mean anything really. It's just there to discourage mass production in a sweatshop environment.
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  #59  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:31am
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PurpleCatJewels PurpleCatJewels is offline
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LOL...that's exactly what I envisioned!

A "sweatshop" environment

But wasn't sure.

I think my max for any one design is, oh, four. TEN for me is near insanity.

My muse has ADD.

This is actually a great thread and I do believe that perhaps a "warning" of sorts is in order even if nothing more than a common courtesy. Most of my tut's say, use them for what you like, please do not copy and redistribute. If you do offer items for sale, please credit the original author of the tut. Which IMHO is only fair.

~Rachelle
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  #60  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:34am
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Kevan Kevan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgurden View Post
What she was trying to tell me is that art influences art.
As it has always done since the first man painted on the walls of caves.

That is part of it's purpose.
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