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  #451  
Old 2009-02-04, 2:45pm
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I have only run into one problem with what looks like a translucent blue rod that almost goes clear but will go back to opaque. I dotted this over the opaque orange for flower petals. It seems the combination is destined to crack. I made three separate beads over two days with this combination and all cracked. Its too bad because its such a nice combination. Other than that combination the two colors seem fine. Could it be that chemicals in the two glasses are mixing causing this problem?
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  #452  
Old 2009-02-04, 3:33pm
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Thanks Natasha.....I'll give it a try tomorrow. Got another order of Devardi today. Fast shipping! Thank you! Kas
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  #453  
Old 2009-02-04, 7:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAS View Post

Anyway, that said, I have a question for the Devardi testers. Have you tried the glass in a press yet? The past few days I've been making Anne's Chintz beads using Lauscha, Moretti and Devardi for the bases. None were encased but all were pressed in a lentil press. At least half of the Devardi beads cracked down the middle along the mandrel line. All others were fine. Any thoughts? I do plan to try again but will heat the press on a heat plate. Thanks for any help. Kas
I used three different size lentil presses on this glass and none broke.
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  #454  
Old 2009-02-04, 9:27pm
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Default Got my 3.5 lb. Sampler...

Nothing was broken, nothing labeled, and no salmon or pinks... . However, the trans. red is great for sculpting hearts! (Valentine's Day!) I love working this stiff glass. I'd probably enjoy working with boro, but don't get me started spending more money that I don't have.

Anywho, no problems with my new glass so far. I'll try and get some pics uploaded soon.

Thanks Natasha for the fast delivery!!

Jack
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  #455  
Old 2009-02-04, 10:30pm
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Is the translucent blue rod you're talking about like a periwinkle (purple-ish blue) color?
Also if you made flowers, did you encase?
The reason I ask is I had a couple beads crack that were made with that color and I had encased them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chayes View Post
I have only run into one problem with what looks like a translucent blue rod that almost goes clear but will go back to opaque. I dotted this over the opaque orange for flower petals. It seems the combination is destined to crack. I made three separate beads over two days with this combination and all cracked. Its too bad because its such a nice combination. Other than that combination the two colors seem fine. Could it be that chemicals in the two glasses are mixing causing this problem?
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  #456  
Old 2009-02-05, 12:56am
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nope they weren't encased. just dots melted on top of another. They cracked after coming out of the kiln. When i took em out they were a little warm, cool enough to hold though. The cracks just started appearing slowly, some happened maybe a half to a hour later. Only that particular combination has been a problem. I've been using the colors in other applications and no problems so far.
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  #457  
Old 2009-02-05, 9:58am
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Thanks Chris,
I need to get to my torch and mess around with that color a bit more.
It's one of my favorite colors and would be a bummer if it doesn't play well with others.
All part of working with glass, some of the best colors are finicky.
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  #458  
Old 2009-02-05, 5:15pm
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I would really like to know what company is manufacturing this glass in India. The information I have found about the working conditions there are shocking...very upsetting.

Perhaps this glass is made at a reputable factory...I really would like to know.

http://www.flonnet.com/fl2222/storie...4002108900.htm

http://www.iesglobal.org/improving-e...tal-health.htm

http://www.andhranews.net/India/2008...tual-55424.asp

I know this question has been asked before but I have not seen the answer. I would love to try new glass...especially cheap glass HOWEVER I just can't support a glass company from India until I can do a little research.

Please...what company is manufacturing this glass?
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  #459  
Old 2009-02-05, 5:40pm
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"However, there had been a rising concern against the practice of child labour, especially by highly labour intensive
and polluted industries, such as the glass industry, which is known for exploiting children as workers."

I know they work because their families need the money but I can't even imagine...This is horrible.

Not buying the products means less $$ for their family, buying them seems to condone the practice, which I am
wholly against, but what is the solution for a better life for these children?

This is a really serious subject and concern. I am all for cheap glass and helping people in impoverished countries by
buying their products....but I would gladly pay a few dollars more if it went directly to the factory to ensure that
the Devardi factory did not use child labor, paid all workers a living wage, 8 hour days with breaks and days off,
and reduced pollution. Wouldn't you?
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  #460  
Old 2009-02-05, 5:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiley View Post

Please...what company is manufacturing this glass?
It seems that the working culture in India accepts these practices. I don't think it's limited to certain company types.
I worked for a high-end jewelry manufacturer. Much of the lower priced gemstone jewelry on the market is assembled
with gemstones faceted by children in India. We only purchased stones from reputable sources.
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  #461  
Old 2009-02-05, 5:53pm
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This is what really got to me, a quote from the second link Robin gave; "The results have shown that around 50% of the child labour is in a poor medical condition, 25% acceptable, with the remaining 25% poor to acceptable. Around 90% are malnourished."

The death rate from silicosis, in both adults and children, is unbelievable.
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  #462  
Old 2009-02-05, 6:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
I would really like to know what company is manufacturing this glass in India. The information I have found about the working conditions there are shocking...very upsetting.

Perhaps this glass is made at a reputable factory...I really would like to know.

I know this question has been asked before but I have not seen the answer. I would love to try new glass...especially cheap glass HOWEVER I just can't support a glass company from India until I can do a little research.

Please...what company is manufacturing this glass?
Natasha did sort of answer the question in an earlier post - but I am so glad you brought it up again. I would also like to know more about where this glass came from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prettyangel View Post
1. Could you tell us where this glass comes from exactly, and what kind of conditions the people who make it are working in?
It comes from India. We must assume conditions are nothing like our factories. India is still a very poor country, and conditions are generally poor. But, the more business we do with places like India, the better conditions will become. So, we feel that buying their products are a good thing in the long run, not that we support or exploit their poor conditions, but that we hope they will also be successful enough to improve them.

2. What do you mean when you say in your auction pages that this glass "is not like the stripped down commercial varieties that flood the market"? Do you feel that there is something wrong with the glass most of us use?

This is just a comparison, not a criticism. Devardi Glass is a very old company with very old glass recipes, even ancient. The color in the glass is very dense (heavily saturated). Although this can cause different effects, some good, some that have to be dealt with, more modern versions have stripped a lot of this density to their colors out so the glass works easier. This make the glass a little more "runny," something some people like, but something we find the Devardi glass more of a benefit. Hope that helps.
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  #463  
Old 2009-02-05, 6:07pm
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The inexpensive plates and glasses I've bought at Target and CostPlus over the years...I wonder how many of them
were produced by children. It is so wrong on so many levels. And yet, without the children working too, how many of
the families there would starve?

I don't want to get political here, but if the US gov't truly wanted to make the world a better place, they would start a war on
Child Labor and work towards Universal Basic Workers Rights....

I better stop now...

Priorities.
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  #464  
Old 2009-02-05, 6:14pm
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If we truly wanted to improve the conditions, instead of a boycott we would take up a collection for respirators and extra filters
and send a care package to India. Along with some kids' books. We're struggling for money right now but I could find a way to
put $$ towards it.

Who's with me?
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  #465  
Old 2009-02-05, 6:40pm
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Quote:
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I don't want to get political here

Priorities.
Well you did get political. This does not contribute to the discussion at hand. Whether I agree or not with your assertions is irrelevant. There is a place to discuss those opinions and this isn't it.
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  #466  
Old 2009-02-05, 7:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prettyangel View Post
Good evening everyone. This is a very serious subject. And believe me, I take it very serious. However, I, for one, am very proud to be able to do business with the poor. I know that my little part will lead to maybe just a little improvement in those poor people's lives. If you wish to condemn the workers in India and other impoverished countries to a life of poor conditions and child labor, then don't do business with them. That is what will cause their bad situation to continue more than anything.

Does anyone remember what Italy was like just a few decades ago? Conditions were appalling. Italy was one of the poorest countries. Now it is prospering. And conditions in places like their glass factories are so much better. Why, because countries like ours did business with them. Sure, we have to strongly complain about child labor and other abuses and poor conditions. But we also have to do our part and do all the business we can with them, or they will never have the resources to improve.

If you consider even the history of the US, the same poor conditions existed here not that long ago. Money, prosperity, complaints and a host of many other things changed those conditions and laws. Without that prosperity and resources though, conditions would likely be still appalling.

China is another example. Just 20 years ago, things were so horribly bad in China, it would make you permanently sick to think about it. Now, so many people are living and working in so much better conditions. That’s mainly because of the US and other countries opening the doors to doing business with them. Their air is still horribly polluted in China, but how are they going to clean it up if they lack resources do so? Doing business with them provides those resources. Not doing business with these countries condemns them to the situation we feel so strongly about. So the answer is to do as much business with them as possible and loudly complain about their conditions and abuses. That works! It's been proven time and time again. So I am proud to do my little part with India.

(By the way, the conditions and company we do business with in India has been checked, and it is far above the standards of many others.) Thank you. Kind wishes, Natasha
Thanks for the response Natasha. I'm not attempting to condemn workers in India or anywhere else.

I am glad that the company that you do business with is above the standards in the area but I am still interested to know the NAME of the company. I really do like to research who I do business with. Especially when I am purchasing products whose manufacture is hazardous.

I'm not trying to be difficult but I really am interested in the name.


I just wanted to add that I lived in Europe and traveled to as many places as possible from the early 70's till 1985. I have also lived and visited all over the US (my Dad's retired Air Force). There are poor throughout the world...bad working conditions everywhere. That is another topic for another day. Right now, I'm just interested in this specific glass...from this specific factory and how their working conditions are and if children are involved.
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  #467  
Old 2009-02-05, 10:01pm
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Okay i don't get it, how many of you concerned about this glass use CIM?

Don't go saying but the factory that CIM comes from does not use child labor, as you cannot possibly be 100% sure of that.

China is not only notorious for child labor in the most horrendous of ways, but they are also notorious for their human rights violations, eating and killing endangered animals, shark fin soup, arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment of prisoners, did you forget Tiananmen Square, lead in childrens toys, poisoned food products, formaldahyde in childrens clothing, toothpaste poisoning, dog food poisoning, torturing and killing Tibetians, Trafficking and sale of women as brides or into prostitution is a serious problem in certain parts of China, forced use of contraceptives, primarily the I.U.D., and forced abortion for pregnant women who already have one child, female infanticide, concealment of female births and abandonment of female infants.

The list is long of the things China does but...If you buy CIM, you support China.

Just pointing that out......everyone screams boycott China, yet its okay to buy and use CIM glass...I don't get it, sorry.
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  #468  
Old 2009-02-05, 10:17pm
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Default Hmmmmm...

This is not a political forum, please.

Thank you, Jack
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  #469  
Old 2009-02-05, 10:25pm
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Natasha, thank you for posting what I was trying to get at. Sometimes people are quick to boycott, when the boycotts actually hurt the workers more.
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  #470  
Old 2009-02-05, 11:08pm
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I am a bit surprised that anyone feels they are entitled to the results of Natasha and Daniels research. Country of origin seems more than fair.

You want more than that, you might want to hit the trail and do your own research.

Cheers
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  #471  
Old 2009-02-06, 12:16am
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Quote:
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I am a bit surprised that anyone feels they are entitled to the results of Natasha and Daniels research. Country of origin seems more than fair.

You want more than that, you might want to hit the trail and do your own research.

Cheers
Kym
I doubt that anyone here could afford to import this glass on their own, and if they were in a position to do so they could probably track down a factory themselves.

I think that a leading concern for many of us is whether, as we are told is being done by the makers of CIM, the factory is supervised and monitored by people who make sure that conditions are acceptable by typical Western ethical standards; no child labor, and basic health and safety precautions. We have no way of knowing FOR SURE that CIM really does this, but then again many of us don't buy CIM for that reason.

We have zero background on this manufacturer, and all the information the seller has seems to be secondhand from the manufacturer... I would be reassured if the seller could at least say that she has toured the factory and is comfortable with the working conditions.

All the other major glass manufacturers, as a rule, are very transparent; you CAN, as a end-consumer, go to Bullseye, Uroboros, Effetre, Vetrofond, Northstar, Lauscha, etc etc and tour the factory yourself. So this level of opacity is not very typical for our industry.

I know that it is a major concern for me, to have at least some sense that the glass that I am buying is produced under reasonable conditions. I would gladly pay an extra couple of dollars a pound if it meant the difference between improving a bad situation and exploiting one.
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  #472  
Old 2009-02-06, 2:02am
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It may be of concern to us but it doesn't mean we are entitled to the information. Lots of things are of interest to me but it doesn't mean I can walk in, demand the info and get it. Businesses usually protect the source of their supplies. I very much doubt that Devardi will miss the odd buyer who finds that glassbuying without full disclosure untenable.
Whether people can afford to import their own glass is not an issue. That doesn't make it Devardi's responsibility to do their research for them.
I am curious about how many people don't buy CIM for ethical reasons though.....I suppose I could run a poll......

Cheers
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  #473  
Old 2009-02-06, 2:08am
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I don't have trouble with CiM ethically because there has been disclosure. If you go to their website, you can see what Kathy has posted about the working conditions there and her relationship with the people who own the factory as well as their employees.

I'm not saying I am pro-China import in general, but I am comfortable that CiM employees are being looked after. We don't have any reason to be as confident in the source of the Devardi glass because we do not have the same kind of information about it as we have about CiM, which is probably part of why the questions are being raised.
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  #474  
Old 2009-02-06, 2:36am
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I don't want to flog a dead horse here, but had Devardi been less honest, had they posted the usual publicity crap that hundreds of company post on the web there wouldn't even be any questions. You are taking what CIM post as absolute truth with no evidence (I don't have any doubts that CIM are exactly as they appear either) but that is not evidence. That is a bunch of pixels arranged on your screen.

Kym
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  #475  
Old 2009-02-06, 2:44am
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I have bought a few colors of CIM but after reading Kathy's post awhile back that they were "pushing the boundaries of the glass"
when explaining that the true annealing temperatures were all over the place, I decided it wasn't worth it to pay $$ for glass
that would have to be specially treated (over 1000 degrees annealing temp for a couple of the colors.) I wonder how many
people are properly annealing beads made with those colors. I don't expect a factory in an impoverished country to conform to
US standards. I do believe that buying their glass will improve their living conditions. As I posted earlier, I would pay a few
more dollars per pound if I knew the $$ was going to improve the lives of the factory's workers.

I shouldn't have posted opinions that had a political bent, this isn't the place for it. I feel very passionately about what I posted.
Reading the articles that Wiley posted sent me off on a "What could we do to make the world a better place" tangent.
I think it's human nature to see a problem and immediately try to come up with a solution. I can't fix the US' humanitarian policies.
I can buy glass and pay a little more for it, I can put aside some money and see if other people interested in sending basic
safety equipment to a factory that makes some really awesome colors.
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  #476  
Old 2009-02-06, 5:51am
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Let's look at the facts rather than just slinging stuff back and forth.

Every glass offered to the glass beadmaking community that I am aware of comes from a known source, factory conditions disclosed, tours of facilities given. We know where CIM is located in China and explicit details as to the working conditions in the factory, how many people work in the factory, the names of the owners of the factory, etc. They "appear" open and interested in the beadmaking community and the quality of glass they produce. We all know about conditions in China. You, as a glass worker, have the choice of believing what you are told about this company or not, but you are buying the glass with your eyes open, knowing the history of China and knowing the firsthand account of people who have been to the factory.

Devardi comes along and we are told it is an "ancient formula" glass, that the working conditions in the factory are similar to others around India and, let's see, I seem to recall that they won't or can't pull uniform cane. A city is not disclosed, nothing about the factory conditions is disclosed, the owners are not disclosed. Unlike in other parts of the world, there has been a universal outcry about the working conditions in glass factories in India. They are horrendous to say the least.

Could there be an exception, a glass factory in India that actually cares about the workers and produces good clean durable glass, a company that cares about its product? Yes, but if that is the case, then why would one not be proud to disclose the factory, the location, the owners, so that all may see what a wonderful place it is.

I won't buy glass from China, but that is my choice. I won't buy glass from India, but that is my choice. I make these choices with my eyes open and my mind full of the facts that are available to me and my own sensibilities. Everyone makes the choices that are consistent with their own personal sensibilities, but it's necessary to have the facts in order to make that informed decision.

We in the glass world are aware of the dangers of working with glass. We, as lampworkers, have fans of a certain cfm, masks of different types according to what we deem necessary, glasses to protect our eyes. We have fire extinguishers, CO2 detectors, flashback arrestors. We are aware of the dangers. We have educated ourselves to those dangers and we make informed decisions whether to work with this material. We also need to make informed decisions about the materials we work with.
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Old 2009-02-06, 6:06am
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lillianw lillianw is offline
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Why would we think that buying this glass would lead to more money in the hands of the actual workers? That seems particularly naive to me.
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  #478  
Old 2009-02-06, 6:14am
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tela tela is offline
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But wait, do you buy silver jewelry? Findings, cut, faceted stones? Clothes? An awful lot of it is made in India (and China of course) Do you shop in Walmart, or Target, or even one of the big department stores? As an ex- importer, I can guarantee a huge amount of the inventory is from India and China....I don't like it either, but it is the open world we live in.
Some of my Indian and Chinese importers had family here working this end, and had small factories in India, but the conditions were certainly not what we have come to expect, but without my business, they had very little else to survive on.... Their lives were definitely better because foreigners bought their stuff.and let me tell you, I sold my wares to top BIG, WELL known stores and museums.....
Don't like it? Don't buy it!!!
This just seems a little lynchy to me, ya know?
jo
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Last edited by tela; 2009-02-06 at 6:16am. Reason: typos
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  #479  
Old 2009-02-06, 6:54am
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pam pam is offline
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It evens out the story, Jo. Not "lynchy" at all, but the facts need to be shown so that people can make an informed decision. We need to be able to look at the whole picture before making choices.

The trickle-down theory usually doesn't work. I'm not saying it won't, just that we have no information on which to base a judgment that it will work. Send glasses, masks, shoes, etc., but will they get to the workers? More likely than not the answer is no. Pay more for glass, will the additional funds be funneled to the salaries for the workers? More likely than not the answer is no. Unless verifiable information can be obtained about the company, there is no way to change the opinion made by the reading of the many articles written about the glass factories of India.

So, your question was, do I buy "silver jewelry? Findings, cut, faceted stones? Clothes?" Well, yes, I do, and I make sure, as best I can, when I am buying those things that they are from companies that do not use child labor and provide safe working conditions for their workers. All we can do is try to be informed about the types of businesses we are subsidizing by buying their products. By being informed we can make intelligent choices, whatever that choice may be. Turning a blind eye and not looking at the facts never works really well.
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"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth

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Old 2009-02-06, 6:54am
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yellowbird yellowbird is offline
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Thinking about every single thing we buy and the wrappings it comes in will keep you busy. It is amazing and on the other end how you throw stuff away and where it goes Not where they tell you it goes but where it actually ends up. Don't buy anything with plastic if you want to do what is right for the planet. try doing that for a week.
I couldn't.
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