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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #61  
Old 2009-11-18, 3:15pm
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Leslie Dana Leslie Dana is offline
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Actually all I have ever used is BE until recently I want to branch out & try more 104 glass but I do not want to deal with a glass that although it is the same COE as the others seems to need way different handling & doesn't play nice with others! Whats the point ?
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  #62  
Old 2009-11-18, 3:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliedana1 View Post
Actually all I have ever used is BE until recently I want to branch out & try more 104 glass but I do not want to deal with a glass that although it is the same COE as the others seems to need way different handling & doesn't play nice with others! Whats the point ?
Then avoid odd lots, hand pulled colors, and silver glass. Be careful with stuff in the red/orange/yellow family, too.
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  #63  
Old 2009-11-18, 3:21pm
Drafly Drafly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliedana1 View Post
I am curious , how would you know how many pounds of glass are being shipped if your NOT part of this company ?

Why use a glass that has documented serious problems because it is cheap ? I would never want to sell anything made from Devardi if some time down the road the beads will crack ! This is apart from the issue of working conditions etc .

Just my take on this !!
Please~ Let's not go down that road again! Several of you know me. I am retired and live in Virginia.

I know Daniel and Natasha and talk with them regularly.

This is not rocket science. It is a soda/lime glass. All this has been discussed in the old Devardi thread and I, for one, do not plan on revisiting it.
Jim
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  #64  
Old 2009-11-18, 3:41pm
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Please, once again you are comparing apples to oranges. Please don't do that. Effectre has a very good track record. When you buy odd lots of almost any glass then you are taking a known risk. It is an odd lot for a reason. You are walking in with your eyes open. So called silver glasses are somewhat experimental at this point in time, although one particular company I am aware of is doing fantastic quality control. People buying this glass go into it with full knowledge that this or that color may not be available again and there could be some problems with the glass. Every brand of glass I know of issues refunds if the glass is not useable. Exploding glass is not a normal occurence and shouldn't be viewed that way. If glass explodes it was not made correctly.

If you want to use this glass, that is fine, just don't represent it to be the same as other glasses available. Everyone has a right to choose and use whatever glass they want. I have no problem with that, but at least let people know what they are getting when they are buying this glass.

I am really glad that this glass appears to be improving in quality, but we won't really know until a few years down the road how well it really works.

And at this point, I am sure all you Devardi fans will be happy to learn that I quit. I've tried as best I can to educate new glass beadmakers on what to look for in selecting a glass to use for beads. Hitting my head against a brick wall time and time again is just not my cup of tea. I wish all of you the best of luck with this glass, but I will continue to hope that you will be honest with new beadmakers about the quality of this glass. If not, you will not only be doing them a disservice, but will be hurting our art form, because every time someone buys a glass bead that eventually cracks, that could possibly be the last time they buy a handmade glass bead.
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  #65  
Old 2009-11-18, 7:02pm
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Originally Posted by pam View Post
Please, once again you are comparing apples to oranges. Please don't do that. Effectre has a very good track record. When you buy odd lots of almost any glass then you are taking a known risk. It is an odd lot for a reason. You are walking in with your eyes open. So called silver glasses are somewhat experimental at this point in time, although one particular company I am aware of is doing fantastic quality control. People buying this glass go into it with full knowledge that this or that color may not be available again and there could be some problems with the glass. Every brand of glass I know of issues refunds if the glass is not useable. Exploding glass is not a normal occurence and shouldn't be viewed that way. If glass explodes it was not made correctly.

If you want to use this glass, that is fine, just don't represent it to be the same as other glasses available. Everyone has a right to choose and use whatever glass they want. I have no problem with that, but at least let people know what they are getting when they are buying this glass.

I am really glad that this glass appears to be improving in quality, but we won't really know until a few years down the road how well it really works.

And at this point, I am sure all you Devardi fans will be happy to learn that I quit. I've tried as best I can to educate new glass beadmakers on what to look for in selecting a glass to use for beads. Hitting my head against a brick wall time and time again is just not my cup of tea. I wish all of you the best of luck with this glass, but I will continue to hope that you will be honest with new beadmakers about the quality of this glass. If not, you will not only be doing them a disservice, but will be hurting our art form, because every time someone buys a glass bead that eventually cracks, that could possibly be the last time they buy a handmade glass bead.
This will be my last post in this thread, unless it's in response to someone who is actually using devardi glass and presumably having a cracking issue, since that's the title of the thread.

With that said-although Pam said she won't reply, I feel a need to respond.

I don't believe Pam has even seen any rods of glass being sold as Devardi. It may or may not be the same as the glass sold back in '02, but since the name of the company was different as well as some characteristics of the glass itself being different, I have my personal doubts on that.

I have issues with someone who has never even seen the glass being so vehemently negative about it.

I haven't seen posts saying it's a perfect glass. I don't read that off the site one purchases it at. Here's that link. http://www.devardiglass.com/about.htm

It says the rods can be of varying diameters and not always perfectly straight. It says they can shatter, and they give working tips. I'm not usually willing to work slower and cooler, so I have more "stick shaped frit". That's a user problem if others are finding that preheating and slower and cooler helps with that. I can't blame the glass for that.

I can, however, compare working characteristics of glass that costs $30/pound and up to working characteristics of devardi. That would be hand pulled glass and odd lots (usually also hand pulled) that shatter at least as easily as the $6 a pound glass does.

I can also say I'm seeing some unique colors in the 104 palette. Transparent olive, semi opaque peach, transparent purple that is a true grape color. I've got a gorgeous light mint green I haven't seen anything like before. The transparent denim blue is lovely, too.

I've been working 104 glass for more than 5 years.Not forever. No glass is perfect. BE comes the closest, I understand. Someday I'll get the studio pack and I may never look back.

Right now, I can compare devardi to some of the more irritating colors of moretti/vetrofond glass with the exploding rods. There are a multitude of posts about just that problem.

I haven't experienced the cracking problem this thread was started about. I've tried to do what normally happens in a "cracking beads" thread, which is troubleshoot. I refuse to condemn an entire line of glass because a few people are reporting a problem I cannot replicate, so I try to figure out what I'm doing differently.

My beads are not, ever, small spacer sized beads. I'm also pressing or squishing just about everything I make. I use whatever brand I think will look cool when I try out things. I sold a handful of items from when I got my first devardi until two weekends ago, when I did a big show and went through all my stuff. I check everything before I bring it to the show, then again every day when I'm putting it up on the displays. I had no cracked beads, and some of my beads had devadi glass in them. I tend to encase everything, and have had some surprises with furnace glass frit blends, so I check.

If you don't want to use it, don't. No problem. If you've used it and had problems, give loads of information, including how you anneal. We'll help. If you've used it and hate it, I've got some opal yellow I'm scared to use, so I understand.

Getting off the soapbox now.
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  #66  
Old 2009-11-18, 9:30pm
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I wasn't going to post in this thread but after reading what transpired so far, I feel that I must share my experience with Devardi ONCE again. I have already been questioned, slammed, insulted by the usual suspects before, thus will not be getting into this again in this thread. I only post because I want to address the OP that Devardi is NOT compatible with many silver glass, based on my experience.

The glass is INCONSISTENT! Pure and simple. If you want to use it, ask yourself these questions first:

• How much your time is worth?
Mine is worth too much to be wasted on testing if this cheap glass is compatible with the glass I normally use. Not just EVERY batch but test every color for this cheap glass is INCONSISTENT!

• How much does your reputation mean to you?
Mine is too important. I cannot have a customer with a bead of mine made with this cheap glass and have it cracked days, weeks, months later. Most of my large beads made with Devardi cracked days/weeks later.

• How much are you willing to put up with shattering, scummy, bubbly glass?
Yes, some hand pulled and/or odd lot from Effetre, Vetrofond and other established companies do have similar issues. That's why I don't use those with few exception (I am willing to put up with Red Roof Tile coz I love the color) . . . but Devardi is INCONSISTENT and the sampler I tried, more than HALF of the colors were shattering, scummy, bubbly - that's too high a percentage. Imagine if 60% of all the Effetre colors were shattering, scummy and bubbly, they wouldn't be in business now.

• Do you use Silver Glass?
95% of my beads contain silver glass and Devardi is NOT compatible with silver glass (some people may have a different experience for this glass is INCONSISTENT!) - it's NOT worth wasting $60-100/lb silver glass by using them with this cheap Devardi glass. You may get away with using Devardi with silver glass as surface decoration if you keep your beads small.

---------------------

I got a sampler and small bundle of Black Metallic. Most of my larger beads cracked with spider web fractures all over. I was going to recycle the glass but a colleague who had some Devardi and wasn't selling her beads wanted them.

Please do not bother to ask about annealing schedule for anyone who has been lampworking for sometime can recognize incompatibility issues and KNOW that NO annealing schedule is going to fix that. Incidentally, working the glass COOL also doesn't fix incompatibility issues. . . otherwise everyone on a HotHead can mix COEs to his/her little heart's content.

Crumbling Devardi glass with various silver glass from TAG, Double Helix and Precision - broke in half about a week later with fractures all over. Again red lines were added to indicate cracks.


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This was simply Diamond Clear (an old batch that was compatible with all other COE 104 glass!) stringer on Metallic Black. Cracked where Diamond Clear was on top of Metallic Black.

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This was my favorite (until it crumbled after a couple of weeks - and broke in half - added red lines to show the spider web fractures) - the semi opaque colors. I loved the Semi Opaque Marine, yet it's also the glass that gave me the most problem with shattering. This one was made with Semi Opaque Marine, Semi Opaque White (I think it's white but it's more a pale blue), Opaque Violet and Double Helix Terranova 2. Bead is 60mm long.


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These are the ONLY beads that didn't crack - small spacer size with surface decoration with silver glass.



Yet most of the transparent colors I tried were bubbly and scummy:
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  #67  
Old 2009-11-18, 11:01pm
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This one is all Devardi


This uses Devardi, Moretti, & Silver Brown


These use Devardi & Moretti


Jack
These were made back in February of this year. They haven't cracked or broken for 9 months so far. I'm still waiting.
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  #68  
Old 2009-11-19, 5:36am
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These were made back in February of this year. They haven't cracked or broken for 9 months so far. I'm still waiting.
Jack, Don't you know? All Devardi Glass beads will crack in 2012 and that will be the cause of the world coming to an end! Scary!

Jim

PS: Great Devardi beads
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  #69  
Old 2009-11-19, 7:42am
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Originally Posted by lesliedana1 View Post
I am curious , how would you know how many pounds of glass are being shipped if your NOT part of this company ?

Why use a glass that has documented serious problems because it is cheap ? I would never want to sell anything made from Devardi if some time down the road the beads will crack ! This is apart from the issue of working conditions etc .

Just my take on this !!
The shipment size is announced in the newsletter when they announce the pre-sale & links for previous buyers to get new colors before the website goes "live to the public".

I've *bought* beads made of "expensive-brand-name-glass" (raku anyone?) & paid decent prices for them, & had them crack "sometime down the road". Beads are GLASS. It happens. Could be poor annealling. Could be I smacked it around in my bead box. Could be they used 104 clear over 96 Raku . Could be who knows what, but it's still a "lost" $$ that I never got to use in re-sale jewelry. I've had the same thing happen with beads with "bumps", etc. Heck, I've even got a sheeps (sorry Nikki) that my brother managed to knock an EAR, Tail & foot off of. Does that make the sheep "poorly made"?? I *know* he was all effetre 104

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesliedana1 View Post
Actually all I have ever used is BE until recently I want to branch out & try more 104 glass but I do not want to deal with a glass that although it is the same COE as the others seems to need way different handling & doesn't play nice with others! Whats the point ?
Because it's a CHALLENGE. It's interesting to LEARN about "what works with what" & to have "stuff to remember" & to learn to *recognize* from the way glass "feels" what might/might not work & "why"--there's a science behind it, but even when you (ok, me) might not understand the actual "chemical" science, you start to learn the way something feels when it's melting, & realize that it's "not going to work" because of the way something *else* feels when it's melting (viscosity)--that mixing them together *might* not be such a great idea (particularly if you're batch annealing )--or what you'll need to do to "force" them to work (ie: higher annealing temp, longer/slower cool down, etc.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drafly View Post
Jack, Don't you know? All Devardi Glass beads will crack in 2012 and that will be the cause of the world coming to an end! Scary!

Jim

PS: Great Devardi beads
That's it! That's the plan!! Devardi is REALLY created to bring about the end of the world!!
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  #70  
Old 2009-11-19, 7:55am
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Originally Posted by lesliedana1 View Post
Actually all I have ever used is BE until recently I want to branch out & try more 104 glass but I do not want to deal with a glass that although it is the same COE as the others seems to need way different handling & doesn't play nice with others! Whats the point ?
Because learning is fun. And the colors are worth it.

My understanding is Lauscha Super Clear doesn't play well with other colors. I have read thread after thread of the other brands that have issues of incompatibility. Seems to me, no matter what you use and how well its supposed to work, you will always have the chance that something will not like to play nice with something else. And it may work fine for one person and not for the other for whatever reason. If you are willing to figure it out it may be worth it. If you aren't willing to take the time to figure it out then go with what you are comfortable with. I have beads encased with the Lauscha Super Clear that cracked a month after I made them. Doesn't mean that I am not willing to try it again and figure out what went wrong.
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  #71  
Old 2009-11-19, 7:58am
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Here's some pictures of beads from the Devardi Website under "Natasha's GlassArt". I don't see any cracks with the Devardi and Double Helix Glass combination.

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Devardi Opaque Salmon, Transparent Orange, High Density Black, & Double Helix Aion 2 Silver rich glass.

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Devardi Trans Purple base, with SOP Mango, encased with Precision Clear and Precision DaVinci 1 Silver rich glass.

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Devardi Trans Purple base, with SOP Mango, encased with Precision Clear and Precision DaVinci 1 Silver rich glass.


There is a rather large display of beads from all kinds of artists on the Devardi website. Here is the link to the artist page: http://www.devardiglass.com/glassartists.htm . The beads are made with Devardi glass and just a myriad of other glasses, including Silver. Hayley, if you're getting scumming, bubbles and cracking, you must be heating the snot out of the glass. If all else fails, read directions on the site. It's pretty clear.
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  #72  
Old 2009-11-19, 8:15am
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It is ridiculous to keep posting that cracking is caused by overheating the glass. The heat of our torches should not be enough to change the COMPATIBILITY of the glass and if it is, there is something wrong. I see that it could cause scumming and bubbles or devit or whatever, but NOT cracking.
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  #73  
Old 2009-11-19, 8:27am
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I guess I see it this way Squid: I have to put beads encased with Lauscha in the kiln glowing (i.e. extra hot) to keep them from cracking and anneal them at a higher temp. I'm guessing it's sort of the same thing but with different req's?

Maybe viscosity related?

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  #74  
Old 2009-11-19, 8:50am
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I guess I see it this way Squid: I have to put beads encased with Lauscha in the kiln glowing (i.e. extra hot) to keep them from cracking and anneal them at a higher temp. I'm guessing it's sort of the same thing but with different req's.
That's completely different, Redayh. Putting Lauscha in the kiln glowing is to prevent it from cooling too fast at room temperature - we all know that cooling too fast can cause thermal shock, thus cracking.

Working any glass too hot IN THE FLAME does not cause cracking.

Incidentally working cooler helps bubbling ONLY when the glass rods are NOT scummy and bubbly and/or already have a hollow tube running down the middle. Glass rods, like a lot of the Devardi sampler I got, were scummy and bubbly and/or had a hole down the middle of the rod . . . which led to shattering and bubbling.

Thank you for posting those beads that did NOT crack. I don't doubt that there were many (especially those without silver glass and those with silver glass that are not over 2"). As I stated before, the BIGGEST problem with this cheap Devardi glass is that it is INCONSISTENT! Some people have no issues and others have all kinds of problems . . . poor quality control and lack of compatibility testing with other COE 104 glass may be the reasons.

Thus, you may have absolutely NO problem with a color today. But when you run out and you purchase more, you may start having problems from shattering, scumming, to crackling. IF you want to spend the time to test every new color, every new batch you purchase, that's your prerogative. As mentioned in the above post, my time is too valuable to be wasted on testing cheap glass . . . if you figure in the time I would spend, the glass wouldn't be cheap anymore!

My posting here is not to argue with the Devardi advocates. My posting here is to share my experience with this INCONSISTENT cheap Devardi glass so that newer lampworkers can make informed decision on whether or not to try it.
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  #75  
Old 2009-11-19, 9:37am
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Some people have cracking problems; some people don't. Some are willing to use it; some aren't. Bottom line? No one is going to change anyone else's mind about this freakin' stupid a$$ glass.
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  #76  
Old 2009-11-19, 9:45am
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Now it's a "freakin' stupid a$$ glass"? Nice.

Jack
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  #77  
Old 2009-11-19, 9:57am
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Now it's a "freakin' stupid a$$ glass"? Nice.

Jack
In the grand scheme of life, and relationships, yes, it is. Is it freakin' stupid and asinine to argue about it? Yes, it is.

IMNSHO, of course.
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  #78  
Old 2009-11-19, 10:05am
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So it's NOT a " freakin' stupid a$$ glass", it's just "freakin' stupid and asinine to argue about it". Thank you for clarifying.

My apologies if I've offended you in any way.

Jack
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  #79  
Old 2009-11-19, 10:10am
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Squid, sorry, I didn’t realize you are a glass chemist and know everything there is to know about this glass. How stupid of me to think that I could go by what the Devardi people say on the site, and by my own experience. It is just ridiculous of me to think that the chemical composition of glass could change if you heat the snot out of it, which could lead to problems. I should just go by your reasoning, even though you likely have never used this glass.

And Hayley, if you don’t have the time to learn how to use the glass properly, why did you buy it? And why are you spending all this time posting your long spiel about how much trouble it causes if your time is so valuable? And why are so many other people using the glass without the problems you experience? It all sounds fishy, just like it did last year when you guys jumped on the Devardi people right from the start and tried to hurt them anyway you could.

And yes, I can read what went on last year without signing up. What a brilliant summation that was.

This thread was created for one purpose and one purpose only, to hurt the Devardi People. You were upset when this glass hit the market a year ago and now you’re upset because they are selling so much glass when other glass vendors are way down in sales. But it isn’t going to do any good. Too many people love the glass, obviously. And too many people see right through what you are doing, just like they did a year ago and bought the glass despite your false insistence that it isn’t good glass.
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:12am
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Originally Posted by chrissij View Post
In the grand scheme of life, and relationships, yes, it is. Is it freakin' stupid and asinine to argue about it? Yes, it is.

IMNSHO, of course.

Here, here.
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  #81  
Old 2009-11-19, 10:13am
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So it's NOT a " freakin' stupid a$$ glass", it's just "freakin' stupid and asinine to argue about it". Thank you for clarifying.

My apologies if I've offended you in any way.

Jack
I'm really hard to offend, but sometimes I'm easy to irritate. This must be one of those times, huh? My apologies if I offended you as well.

If a touchy subject obviously isn't going to be settled, I simply don't see any reason for the back and forth bruhaha. It can turn into petulant posturing, and who wants to waste time on that?

We all have fun melting glass. We all have opinions. 'Nuff said, right?
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:16am
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Correct.

Jack
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:26am
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Well, I am curious about this. I am a relative new comer to the glass world. (Aug and I work a day job so don't get to spend nearly as much time on this as I would like). I am actually quite surprised by the total negativity on this glass from some of you who want to make sure that we know what we are getting into. Every one is, of course, entitled to their own opinions, some of the comments I am reading are coming across rather harsh. As a newbie, when I decided I wanted to try this glass, I read everything I could on the forums here and I went and checked out their website before I decided to buy. The thread on Devardi techniques was most informative of both the good and the bad about this glass and I made an informed decision to give this glass a try. I did the same thing for some of the other glass I want to try. My point is, the only way for me to decide if its good glass or bad glass for me, is to try it out myself after doing as much research as I can. I knew when I bought it I would have to do things a bit differently and to expect some of the problems that I had with it. But truly, for me, its well worth it.

There are posts here that really just sound like no one should even give this glass a chance, which I find very sad. If things like this were said about every new glass that came out many, many people would not have the pleasure of working with some of the glass that is out there, and has the kinks now worked out of it.
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:27am
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Originally Posted by chrissij View Post
...If a touchy subject obviously isn't going to be settled, I simply don't see any reason for the back and forth bruhaha. It can turn into petulant posturing, and who wants to waste time on that?

We all have fun melting glass. We all have opinions. 'Nuff said, right?
Amen, sista!
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:32am
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Sonja, thanks for saying so eloquently, what many of us are feeling.!
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:44am
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Some people have cracking problems; some people don't. Some are willing to use it; some aren't. Bottom line? No one is going to change anyone else's mind about this freakin' stupid a$$ glass.
exactly LOL
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Old 2009-11-19, 10:56am
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Well said Sonja.

Jack
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Old 2009-11-19, 11:00am
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I do not understand why it's ok to spend time learning how to work an expensive glass (silver glass, see Haley's threads and ebooks on the subject) but not a cheaper glass.

One who is having problem with any glass having the same result twice could call it inconsistent (again like many silver glasses, based on the threads posted asking how did I get it to do that, or how do I get it to do what she did). I suppose, if we are going to push it, we could call any glass that has bubbles running the length down some rods, but not all rods, inconsistent as well, as that will certainly cause problems.

The transparents I have used aren't as bubbly and scummy as Haley posted. I've also used, on the surface only, dragons breath shards from avenue. I'm 99% sure they have some silver glass in it, be it raku or chalcedony or something like that, based on the email I had with them regarding the striking sequence. No cracks. Beads made in August.

I'm glad to have another glass to play and learn from and with.
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Old 2009-11-19, 11:27am
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IMHO - I like the Devardi glass, a lot. I've already picked out a few of the colors which I love, and will definitely want to order more of. But more time and a whole lot of experimentation is needed when it comes to mixing them with other 104 lines, I think. I see good results with the leaded surface applied frits, and silvered ivory stringer (Effetre, Vetrofond) is looking good too.

So far, I've experimented with just a few of the colors and I've wrote down some notes for future reference. I am proceeding with caution, because I have a very large customer base and like all the rest of you, still can't afford to have disasters down the road with cracked beads and very upset customers.

I've read through both threads and yes, there is a lot of negativity. This is not good for their business, but then again, there are more positive points being made. The colors are gorgeous, lower cost of the glass, excellent customer service, and the Devardi company is working to improve their products. I'm hoping the negativity in these threads helps the company a lot more than it hurts them.

Improving the glass in all ways necessary involves many things - it's workability in the flame, annealing temps, batch-to-batch color consistency, and compatability. That is going to take time, and you know, it will cost. So, down the road, look for a much better Devardi product line, and of course, you know something else....the cost WILL go up, and rightfully so. Ask the folks at BE and Uroboros about their continous product compatability testing. They gotta pay people to do that work.

Better product? Gonna be more money! I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.
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  #90  
Old 2009-11-19, 11:32am
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Squid, sorry, I didn’t realize you are a glass chemist and know everything there is to know about this glass. How stupid of me to think that I could go by what the Devardi people say on the site, and by my own experience. It is just ridiculous of me to think that the chemical composition of glass could change if you heat the snot out of it, which could lead to problems. I should just go by your reasoning, even though you likely have never used this glass.

And Hayley, if you don’t have the time to learn how to use the glass properly, why did you buy it? And why are you spending all this time posting your long spiel about how much trouble it causes if your time is so valuable? And why are so many other people using the glass without the problems you experience? It all sounds fishy, just like it did last year when you guys jumped on the Devardi people right from the start and tried to hurt them anyway you could.

And yes, I can read what went on last year without signing up. What a brilliant summation that was.

This thread was created for one purpose and one purpose only, to hurt the Devardi People. You were upset when this glass hit the market a year ago and now you’re upset because they are selling so much glass when other glass vendors are way down in sales. But it isn’t going to do any good. Too many people love the glass, obviously. And too many people see right through what you are doing, just like they did a year ago and bought the glass despite your false insistence that it isn’t good glass.
You are SO not nice.
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