EX-5 Major Issues

flameart · #1 2010-09-09, 8:40pm

I just received my new (refurbished) EX-5 that I hooked up to my Nortel Minor.
This is what I'm running into: I start up the oxycon, let it run for 5 min.
When I do open the oxy valve on the torch, I hear a faint hissing sound. The flame is all propane - huge flame with no "candles", when I reduce the propane flow and try to add oxy, the flame just goes out.
What is the proper procedure for starting a torch on this kind of a setup? Is there something different I should be doing with the concentrator?

I think I've used every single swear word I know tonight and none of them have helped

LOL

Thanks for any advice you may have!

flameart · #2 2010-09-09, 10:32pm

Ok, so after messing around for another hour, I was able to create very small candles (3-4mm long). By adding more oxygen, the flame separates from the torch and burns about 15-20cm away from the torch end. By adding more propane, the candles disappear.
What's going on? I can't figure it out!

Thanks!

Beadanna · #3 2010-09-10, 12:49am

It took quite a while for my oxycon to get going. I brought it in from the US and it sat for months in a cold studio. It just beeped and didn't produce oxy for some time. Then I had issues with fuses popping.
We got the fuse issue sorted though it still was a bit iffy.
Finally it is working and it is fabulous.

I'm sure someone will be able to help you with tweaking this.

The fact that you got some oxygen out of it is hopeful.

metalbone · #4 2010-09-10, 7:28am

The problem is that you are trying to light the propane with too much o2 running through. Plus operating the oxycon with the valve close can damage the oxycon (the ball sits at the bottom because there is no flow because the valve is closed). Try this:

1. leave your torch's O2 valve open when you fire up the oxycon and let run for a bit.

2. quickly close the O2 valve and turn on the propane slightly, then light.

3. open the O2 valve and adjust your flame.

flameart · #5 2010-09-10, 3:47pm

I did give your instructions a try, Metalbone. I'm still not sure what I'm doing wrong, but when I do light the propane (I have it at about 3-4PSI, also tried 5PSI), and then turn on the oxy, the longest flame I can get is only about 2". Turning on more oxy makes the flame "blow away" from the torch.
Turning up the propane more gives me a long bushy yellow flame.
It's as if I can't get the right mix! I've literally spent hours trying to get this right.
What else could I try? Higher PSI for propane? Since the oxycon only puts out a maximum of 5LPM, I figured I should stay at 3-4PSI for propane.

Thanks!

squid · #6 2010-09-10, 6:12pm

Sounds like your purity on the oxycon is bad - or your propane is turned up too high. Don't adjust the propane at the regulator, adjust it at the torch.

DO NOT leave your oxy valve closed and run the oxycon unless yours is specifically designed to be ok that way, and I am pretty sure none of the regular medical oxycons are.

Dale M. · #7 2010-09-10, 6:35pm

LPM output of oxycon should be set at 4.5 to 5 LPM... Most oxycons output that VOLUME at about 8 PSI (pounds pressure)....

Oxygen knob on torch should be full open (after lighting) .... Flame is adjusted by propane knob (pressure of propane is secondary)..... You only add in enough propane to mix properly will full volume of oxygen, assuming oxycon purity is at 95-96% or better...

Dale

flameart · #8 2010-09-10, 9:00pm

I'm still very puzzled! Talk about feeling absolutely blond and stupid!
How much propane should I turn on when lighting the torch - how long should the flame be? Half a turn on the torch knob or more or less?
If I try turning the propane about 1/4 turn and light it up, the flame is about 5-6" long. Then when I turn the oxy knob on torch, I can go only about half open (steel ball on oxycon sits at #2), and then the flame starts traveling away from the torch.
At no point in this process can I create "candles".
I'm thinking this oxycon is defective, or is it possible that the torch is messed up? It's brand new.
Is having the propane flashback arrestor right at the torch an issue?
Thanks for all the help, guys!

metalbone · #9 2010-09-10, 9:18pm

I suspect squid is right and it is an oxy purity issue. I hardly ever let my oxy full open and adjust the flame with the propane. Rather, I make adjustments to the O2 flow anywhere above 1/2 lpm, depending on how large a flame I need (using invacare and devilbiss oxycons). With just a small propane flame, as soon as I crack the oxy, the candles form.

To leave your oxy full open and adjust with the propane could make for either too large a flame or one with characteristics you may not desire (too much of an oxidizing flame). Oxycons have variable flow, so there is no reason to have to run it full blast all the time and adjust the flame with the propane.

The flame away from the face sounds like either too much flow or low purity. You might try running the oxy over a wood match with a red ember at the end to see of the stick flames up (light the match, then blow it out, then put it in the path of the O2 from the oxycon). Pure Oxy would cause the red ember on the matchstick to flame up. If it just makes the ember glow and go out, then it is likely not that pure.

squid · #10 2010-09-10, 9:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by flameart

I'm still very puzzled! Talk about feeling absolutely blond and stupid!
How much propane should I turn on when lighting the torch - how long should the flame be? Half a turn on the torch knob or more or less?
If I try turning the propane about 1/4 turn and light it up, the flame is about 5-6" long. Then when I turn the oxy knob on torch, I can go only about half open (steel ball on oxycon sits at #2), and then the flame starts traveling away from the torch.
At no point in this process can I create "candles".
I'm thinking this oxycon is defective, or is it possible that the torch is messed up? It's brand new.
Is having the propane flashback arrestor right at the torch an issue?
Thanks for all the help, guys!

When the flame is moving away from the face of the torch, try turning the propane DOWN at the torch. It sounds like you have too much fuel possibly.

flameart · #11 2010-09-10, 10:00pm

It must be the purity then, since I already tried it with a very-very low flow. I was able to get tiny candles, but the flame was less than 1" long.

Is there anything I can do to help the purity issue? Or does it sound like a manufacturing defect?

I'll try the wood match test tomorrow, I had to leave my studio for the night, it was becoming way too frustrating!

flameart · #12 2010-09-10, 10:03pm

Squid, thanks, I also tried turning down the propane. As I was saying in my previous post, the only way I can get candles (really small), is if I turn both the propane and oxy waaaaay down. But then the flame is too small.
I've e-mailed the distributor, hopefully they'll have some answers for me. I need to get this darn thing working ASAP. Not a fun thing to run into after waiting for 5 weeks for the oxycon to arrive!

squid · #13 2010-09-10, 10:07pm

That does sound like a purity issue.

squid · #14 2010-09-10, 10:08pm

Do you live close to another lampworker? Is it possible to get someone to show you how to set the flame?

flameart · #15 2010-09-10, 10:33pm

I've e-mailed the wonderful lady that taught me beadmaking. I hope she has some answers for me

I assume there's not much I can do on my own to help with the purity issue?
I'm doing exactly what I was taught when it comes to lighting the torch, there is just something very different going on here. I'll post the outcome here once I get this sorted out - it may be helpful for someone else down the road.

Thanks again!

Reenie · #16 2010-09-11, 1:30am

try this. First unhook the hose to your oxygen on the torch.
Start the oxycon and let it sit on for a few minutes. Then raise the ball up to the line (the max it is allowed to go) then shut off machine. Hook it back up to your torch. Start it up and let it run for a few and then light up the torch.
I had the ex5 and then switched to the ex 15. I still get exactly what you get when I just turn on the machine and then light the torch. It gives me propane and then when I turn up the oxygen, it kills the flame. But if you've turned on the machine for awhile and it's still doing it, it might be that you never set up your machine first. (maybe?) Before hooking up any concentrator you should set the ball to where it needs to be and THEN you hook it to the torch. You shouldn't ever have to mess with that gauge afterwards. hope that works for ya!

cheng076 · #17 2010-09-11, 10:23am

Here is my 'method'. Both my airseps are connected together. I leave my torch valve open to the same setting as I left it when I shut down last time or a little more open...about a quarter turn or so. The little ball flow indicators are set at 4 to 4.5 on each unit. I let the units run at least 10 minutes before lighting the torch (while I get other stuff positioned, glass sorted out etc). I go to the torch, close the oxy valve, crack open the propane only about 1/8 turn, very little, and light the propane. I establish a propane flame about 6 inches long that is right up on the torch face, no seperation and start opening the oxy valve. When the oxy flow starts the flame sort of starts out a short distance from the torch face but 'slides' back to the face very quickly. I can then adjust the flame size using both valves as needed. Most people advise leaving the oxy valve open all the way. i do not. My method accomplishes the same thing but the valve is closer to being closed just in case it is necessary to do so. When my flame is established and as I want it I close back on the oxy valve until I see a change in the flame shape and or color then I reopen the valve just past there to get full flow. Full flow is the key term here not fully open, IMO.

Short candles that are away from the face indicate impure oxy - air - is flowing rather than oxy. or too much flow. The candles length will depend on the torch used but in general should be about 3/8 to 5/8 inch long and blue with about 1/16 in white tips. Only very short and oxy rich candles will be all blue or if using very pure oxy and getting very good fuel/oxy mixing.

HTH, PJ

flameart · #18 2010-09-11, 11:52am

I've done what you suggested, Reenie, several times over and over

(these were the instructions on the sticker of the EX-5 as well).
So I get the ball up to 4-4.5. Once I turn the oxy off and then back on again after lighting the propane, I have to open the valve on the torch a good 1/2 turn, if not more, for the ball to sit at that same place (I turn the oxy on very slowly). But by that time the flame goes out, even with adding more propane. The only way I can keep any sort of a flame going, is if the ball is at 2 or less. And then the flame is very-very short - just as a test, I tried to melt some glass in it, and it got all covered in black tar-like stuff. Also, the flame is not hot enough that way.
The more I read about it, the more I think it is a purity issue. Is that somehow fixable at home?
So it's like there's air flow, but it's not the right kind of air.

Reenie, my EX-5 says that a part of the set-up process is "Locate the filter door on the back of your generator and place the square plastic filter in the hole. Then place the foam filter on top of the plastic filter." I have no idea what this is all about. There is a filter door, but there is no square filter and no hole? Did your's come with a filter that is removable? All the foam parts in mine seem to be glued in.

squid · #19 2010-09-11, 12:04pm

Most likely you will need to have it serviced.

metalbone · #20 2010-09-11, 5:09pm

since you are getting flow, the compressor is probably OK. It may be a problem with the zeolite cannisters or plumbing. You might want to pop the hood and take a look at the internal plumbing to make sure the hoses to and from the cannisters are intact.

flameart · #21 2010-09-11, 7:06pm

Yes, I'm very tempted to open up the box and see if everything is connected properly, but there is that darn "Warranty void if broken" seal! I'm scared I'll be hooped if I open it up, don't see anything wrong and then what?
I probably won't hear back from the manufacturer until Monday or Tuesday.

I also had a chat with my teacher lady and she is 100% sure the concentrator is faulty.

Thanks everyone for your efforts in trying to help me!

Reenie · #22 2010-09-11, 11:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by flameart

There is a filter door, but there is no square filter and no hole? Did your's come with a filter that is removable? All the foam parts in mine seem to be glued in.

I do have removable parts in the back plus an extra filter and whatever the thingy is that it attaches too. That didn't make a difference for me though when I took it off to test it.
I'd give Paul a call on Monday and see if he can troubleshoot over the phone.

oldschooltofu · #23 2010-09-13, 1:25pm

i would say its a purity issue.
there are 3 problems that happen with concnetrators:

1) purity (the sieve bed needs to be re-poured costs about 125-150$+) this needs to be done every 2 years or so, depending on useage. i know Jack from UO will do it if you pay for shipping both ways, and you can take the sieve bed out and just send him that. which saves a bunch on shipping costs. there are other companies online that re-pour sive beds but i have no further info and have not used them.

2) Pressure issues are usually caused by the cup seal or oring on the piston of the compressor inside the concentrator needing to be replaced about every 6-10 months. its a 4$ part but very tricky to replace yourself. i have done 3 huricanes and 1 m15. once you know how to get the piston back together its and easy diy fix.

3) you have a leak in one of the hoses inside the concentrator. i have had to replace a few hoses and or hose clamps. the hoses can get dry and crack, causing a leak and low pressure. i have also seen hoses twisted and crimped. this fix is easy diy, just use windex or soapy water to check for leaks while the machine is running anywhere there is a hose clamp or zip tie.

get a tank of 02 and you will see right away its probably your concentrator.

what torch are you trying to run with it?

Concentrators are great and save a lot of oxygen when they work. but you will probably need a back up tank for days/weeks when its not working. i have had one of my huricanes down for about 8 months now....just got it running after getting the sieve bed re-poured. and now having one of my other huricanes sieve beds' repoured this month.

ABR Dave · #24 2010-09-14, 11:33am

what torch are you running? i don't know of any lampwork torches that are really well run from just 5 psi.

oldschooltofu · #25 2010-09-14, 12:02pm

minor....i just re-read her original post.

still sounds like she might have a concentrator issue

flameart · #26 2010-09-14, 9:58pm

UPDATE!
I got my oxycon working today! I talked to Paul from Extreme Oxygen and I got permission to open up the cover. A component (little black "box") had broken off the electrical board. I was able to somehow tape it back in place with electrical tape until we figure out a way to actually fix it.
The moment I turned on the oxy today, I've got a proper flame and by now I have a kiln full of beads "cooking".
So it seems that I was getting just regular air blown out of the oxycon before, so no wonder any sort of a flame kept getting blown out!

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for trying to help me out! I think I'm more hooked on this website than Facebook

squid · #27 2010-09-15, 8:13am

Great news!

Dale M. · #28 2010-09-15, 8:47am

Go a picture of broken component?.... IF we could see it then maybe we could suggest a permanent fix for it....

Dale

cheng076 · #29 2010-09-15, 9:56am

Sounds like..... one of the output relays to me. But yes if you could get a pic one of us might come up with a way for you to fix it permanently.
PJH

Belle Armoire · #30 2010-09-17, 8:36am

congrats !