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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #31  
Old 2006-01-06, 2:41pm
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thanks Brent, I have put in a call to Carlisle Machine Works asking for the technical specs on the Wildcat. I will post them here when I get a return call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Elizabeth. The M-10 and the M-20 are about the same output on volume. The pressures are different. The M-20 just pushes hard, which is what some torches need (GTT especially). The number you need to know is how many LPM or LPH your torch consumes... which is liters per minute or liters per hour. Then you will know if the M-10 is enough. The M-10 does 10 LPM or 600 LPH. I hope this helps... it's a bit technical and I wish I knew what the wildcat specs were. It sounds like the M-10 will work, if it recomends 5-10 PSI.
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  #32  
Old 2006-01-06, 5:26pm
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I don't use boro. I have a sample pak and clear and the last time I tried it, a long time ago, I got the brown poo over and over and over. It was frustrating for me. I think it intimidates me!
I have a Lynx and tanked 02.
Maybe I'll take a chance tomorrow

Carrie
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  #33  
Old 2006-01-06, 5:46pm
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Carrie... just work it hot... much hotter than you are used to with soft glass. Your flame should be a driving flame. Not soft and fluffy. It should say "I mean business!" If you have any specific questions or colors you don't know how to use, just post 'em here and I'll try to do my best.
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  #34  
Old 2006-01-06, 5:53pm
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I certainly love the colors I see in boro. I have never used boro because I didn't think I could get hot enough. I just hooked up a second concentrator to my minor, but would that be enough?
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  #35  
Old 2006-01-06, 5:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Carrie... just work it hot... much hotter than you are used to with soft glass. Your flame should be a driving flame. Not soft and fluffy. It should say "I mean business!" If you have any specific questions or colors you don't know how to use, just post 'em here and I'll try to do my best.
LOL
I am going to tackle it tomorrow for sure now. Maybe I'll get mad and WTF right?
What have I got to lose???

Carrie

Oh yeah, is there any color that is easier to 'see' results than another???
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  #36  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:00pm
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Amber Purple or Double amber purple... work it til it goes clear... let it cool below glow and then either kiln strike it at about 1075 for a while or flash it in the back of the flame.... the color should POP!
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  #37  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzyQ
I certainly love the colors I see in boro. I have never used boro because I didn't think I could get hot enough. I just hooked up a second concentrator to my minor, but would that be enough?
It may be a little slow. The Minor has a pretty unorganized flame structure... but it's definitely doable. Just go for it and ask questions as you run into problems. I'd be happy to walk you through it.
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  #38  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:13pm
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I'm dabbling in boro with the Piranha now. Still trying to learn the torch! the boro frustrates me cause I want it to melt faster - and I was messing up mandrels - but then I got back to soft glass and I'm dropping it on the tabletop it gets so liquid so fast!! I seem to like the colors I get when encased in clear but my amber purples are staying kinda amber with tinges of more. I lust after the purples! Got some lovely shades of liver - and several of the colors I've tried are really dark so I guess I need to thin them out more. And I was annealing to 1050.

O yeah - trying off-mandrel - no one, I mean NO ONE will EVER see those disasters.

I also need to get a handle on what is reducing, neutral and oxidizing flames on Piranha.

:::sigh::: so much to learn - so little time - darn that pesky job!



Martha
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  #39  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzyQ
I certainly love the colors I see in boro. I have never used boro because I didn't think I could get hot enough. I just hooked up a second concentrator to my minor, but would that be enough?
I've done that, but I have to warn you, it's slow. A Bobcat or Lynx with 2 concentrators works way better, I know, I've done all 3 combinations.
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  #40  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:46pm
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Oh Brent, good thread. I've worked soft glass for about 5 years, but absolutely love the different boro effect.....fantasy, ethreal gorgeous colors (esp. the purples).

This thread is great on timing. I use a minor torch and a concentrator. I have always felt that MY concentrator ran a little reducy, so things like rubinos would be a little muddy. However, the few boro beads I made after taking Lauri Copeland's class (last year?) did not take that long to make, but it wasn't as oxy rich as should be according to my test color of....geez, what was it...Amazon green that Henry Grimmet with GA suggests testing with.

My "inhibitor" is the annealing cycles (day commitment to boro) but more to the point....the basic need for more "go go juice" with oxy...thus my interest in all these higher powered oxy concentrators. I'll need to check those out.

Brent, what torch would you suggest if someone went up from a minor and was interested in boro beads and small sculpture? And choosing a higher oxy system of course.

Great thread! Elizabeth...I didn't know you got a new torch. Details!
Kristy
PS Brent, I LOVE your boro hearts...the colors. OMG. Serious gushing here. I could put one of those under my pillow for sure! I 'd never leave the studio if I made those.
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  #41  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:56pm
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Great point about the annealing cycle. You really don't have to commit to a whole day of boro. If you start with boro, you can ramp down to 950 during lunch and just work soft glass after lunch. I've done that when I wanted to play with soft glass a little.

I would suggest a Piranha and an M-10. It really does make for a great boro and soft glass combo. If I didn't ever go large on my lathe and need my Mirage, I would definitely have that set up for just beads and pendants.
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  #42  
Old 2006-01-06, 6:58pm
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It's amazon night for the test color... I believe. You can also test with Amber Purple and just see how fast the haze burns off. If it burns off fast, you've got an oxydized or neutral flame. If it builds up at all, you're reducing.
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  #43  
Old 2006-01-06, 7:27pm
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I plan to do some boro when I get a new torch (Betta) - until then, it's awfully slow, but I can't help playing with it now and then. It's just too pretty!

Maybe I'll have some good questions later this year, but thanks for the thread, Brent - I'll keep watching it and maybe learn something.

Teresa
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  #44  
Old 2006-01-06, 7:38pm
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It's really not an accident that I started this thread. The equipment is finally available to work both boro and soft glass in a home studio economically. No more lugging tanks every week or buying really expensive equipment. Sure, it's more than just a soft glass set up... but the return on the investment is definitely there. AH doesn't make boro beads and it's certainly one way to get ahead of the game and to push your glass work to another level. I know working both glasses teaches you things you never would have thought about only working one glass. I'm really excited about this opportunity for the lampworking community. It's gonna be cool.
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  #45  
Old 2006-01-06, 9:37pm
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Hey Brent,

Couldn't help myself, had to delurk and come clean about my dilema. I have been working soft glass since about 1996 and use a LOT of soft glass beads in my jewelry line. I've always felt that it could take a lifetime to learn all of the reactions and heat control with soda lime glass. Add to that fine silver and gold and copper, yum it's endless. Anyway, in October I took a class with Sally Prasch. We were pulling points and doing implosions etc. Holy crap, I fell in love with boro. It takes so much abuse. The colors are gorgeous. I ordered a bunch of tubing and lots of color from Generation Glass (sale!!!).
Love the ease of making hollow beads, vessels etc with the tubing! Slowly learning all of the gorgeous colors... I'm hooked. I use a Lynx with 2 concentrators and I can feel the need for more fire already. The Lynx is great for most things except melting in color quickly. That is sort of tedious... I'm thinking of moving up to a Phantom! Do you think I could run a Phantom on one of these new uber concentrators? That would be sweet. Thanks for your enthusiasm. I would love to see people pushing their stuff to a new level. If I see another flower bead with a frog on it I'm gonna Croak! (little joke). Thanks
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  #46  
Old 2006-01-06, 11:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
It's really not an accident that I started this thread. The equipment is finally available to work both boro and soft glass in a home studio economically. No more lugging tanks every week or buying really expensive equipment.
Yes, I expect my costs to be pretty low once I get a Betta and an oxycon. We are plumbing my "studio to be" downstairs for natural gas, since we already have it here at the house. Sure will be nice to have all the gas and oxy I need without ever having to run downtown to get filled tanks!

And yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right. Learning to work boro is one more thing that will help many of us stay ahead of the cheap imported bead sellers.

Teresa
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  #47  
Old 2006-01-06, 11:40pm
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If there were a teacher around these parts that used it I would LOVE - LOVE - LOVE to try boro....I love boro but its rather expensive to bring into Canada to experiment with. Boro was the main reason I got into lampworking...well that and because of Kim Miles flowers.

At one point someone was going to teach it but it never panned out.....smiley we need you over here just for a few days !!! Bring lots of glass and lots of patience.
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  #48  
Old 2006-01-07, 1:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurie L
If there were a teacher around these parts that used it I would LOVE - LOVE - LOVE to try boro....I love boro but its rather expensive to bring into Canada to experiment with. Boro was the main reason I got into lampworking...well that and because of Kim Miles flowers.

At one point someone was going to teach it but it never panned out.....smiley we need you over here just for a few days !!! Bring lots of glass and lots of patience.
Hey Laurie,

Lauri Copeland will be teaching at Red Deer this spring(May22-24)! I took her class last year and it really was a blast! Check into it if you are interested ... it is offered as a pre-conference workshop to the GAAC conference being held there.

Lauri's class was the perfect way to launch myself into a whole new love affair with glass!! Haven't even touched the soft stuff since!

Kari
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  #49  
Old 2006-01-07, 3:46am
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Lauri Copeland is awesome. I need to get ahold of her and chat again. If you have her coming to any place you can get, take her class.

If you have a teaching studio near by, just give them my info and have them call me. Have torch - will travel. My teaching schedule for 2006 isn't full quite yet.

I think the Betta is going to be a godsend for those people on NG. It's an awesome little bead torch that will definitely melt boro and cost pennies to run. It's going to make me wish I had NG.

Kiko, I hear you... people that haven't worked boro on a boro torch don't know what they are missing. It really is forgiving and takes a beating. No thermal shock when you put a rod into the flame... it's blow and go renegade style. You don't have to baby boro, you can smack it around and it just smiles back atcha.
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  #50  
Old 2006-01-07, 4:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurie L
If there were a teacher around these parts that used it I would LOVE - LOVE - LOVE to try boro....I love boro but its rather expensive to bring into Canada to experiment with.
Hi Laurie! Like Brent says...just go for it! I've been working with it for a couple of months...there's tons of great info on the GA and NS websites, as well as various forums on-line - certainly enough to get you started...As far as the expense - I live in Canada as well, and it's really not as bad as you may think...considering how little color you'll actually use for each bead/pendant/heart - whatever! Also, get lots of clear (it's super cheap), that way you can "experiment" with scultptual stuff, etc, and it'll cost you next to nothing!
For me, the best thing about boro is it's luminosity - I can, and do, sit and stare at the wonderment of it all...real magic! And I can't think of a better way to start my day than with some real cool kiln surprises!!!
I tried to come up with something negative to say, but cannot.
BTW, for now, I work with a Minor and tanked oxy - works a wee bit slower that soft glass, but so worth it!
Enjoy!
Val XOXO
P.S: As you can see in my "tiny-head", Teddy loves working it too! lol
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  #51  
Old 2006-01-07, 5:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrybrickman
I also think it's much more challenging, stiffer, striking, and the equipment and glass is more expensive and perhaps that's why it's intimidating to the soft glass beadmakers.
Larry makes my point before I make it! I've been playing with boro off and on for the past 2-3 years but really only dabble in it. I like the idea of boro for sculpture not beads. I like tubing for beads, though. So I have a stash but to do boro I really need to upgrade my set up and right now, I don't want to invest in a new torch and a new oxy generator and new ventilation. I have a minor and 2 concentrators so boro is very slow.

Also, when I try to explain to people that I don't think the glass moves in the same way as soft glass does, they look at me like I have 3 heads! All the general principles are the same yes, but the specifics are not.

I spent alot of time in the beginning working soft glass colors so that I know that Effetre black transparent will move in a certain direction when I heat it to an orange glow and that Effetre Ivory will move in a different direction when heated to the same color. I know where to hold which color in which part of the minor flame, etc. Boro moves in a different direction than the Effetre Black and it moves slower - oh and I have to add the heat it to white. So for beads and small off hand- like pendants, I would prefer to stick to soft glass.

Scuplture and tubing is the thing I want to do in boro. But I need more fire, more oxy and more ventilation and a whole 'nother set of glass!

Cindy
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  #52  
Old 2006-01-07, 6:02am
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Cindy, I think you hit on a good point... it is different. It definitely doesn't move as fast as soft glass in the same flame... but if you work soft glass in a boro flame, you run into the same problems. It's all about heat control and having the right tools for the job. While boro requires more heat to move at a good beadmaking pace, it pretty much stops moving when you pull it out of the flame. That's something I really had to get used to with soft glass (I dropped glass all over my table for a while )... once soft glass is liquid, it stays liquid much longer. With boro, once the heat is removed, it stiffens up really quickly. This ability to work in slower motion, lends to a lot more control. I imagine what ever glass you learned with, you will have some adjusting when you try the other. Both hold some really insightful lesson about the other glass. I find the similarities far outweigh the differences in the long run. Every little trick or technique can be applied somewhere in working the other glass.
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  #53  
Old 2006-01-07, 6:27am
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Okie pokies........

In my grand scheme of things, I intend to try my hand at Boro for sculpture etc.

At the moment i use my HH due to not having the right set up re: finished studio/safety etc.... that hopefully will all be sorted by March. Then, I shall be using my second hand Piranha with the intention of getting a Cuda at some point...

So, Ive been thinking that before going to expense of buying tanks an stuff and lugging them around, I will get a concentrator. So, first Q is, would it be possible for these M- 10 to be shipped to uk (soon, as Im in the market for it now in prep for March hehe)? Is it worth the cost of doing that? etc... (I have searched to see if they are available in the uk and I cant find them).

Or, alternatively.....would I be better off buying what I can in the uk? (suppose only I can decide that.stupid question lol)

I suppose Im one of these people who looks at all the options of equipment available that suits my future needs. Rather than buy something that will *do* for now and I end up regretting or wasting my money.

Plus, *if* by chance I make *that* huge mistake I can always sell it and probably cover my costs!

Im lucky enough not have invested in too much equipment, I feel that I would rather get the equipment that does *the job* of what I want use it for in the future now rather than keep upgrading all the time!

I dont intend to give up glass. My paid work does intend on giving me up later this year though lol. So when that happens I shall be taking the opportunity to *play with glass* on a more permanent basis.

Also, ventilation...... with Boro, do you need anything different to soft glass? (something else Im thinking about sorting now).

Probably the other issue I would have in the uk is supplies of Boro....... I think one place does it! An uk peeps know?

Ok Ive waffled on an on........sorry! hehe

Cheers Jenny
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  #54  
Old 2006-01-07, 6:35am
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Jenny, the units could be shipped, but I don't know how much it would be. They aren't terribly heavy. Just about the same as a medical concentrator. They are in the same case with the exception of the M-30... it's got a custom case.

The other question I can answer is ventilation... it's more important with boro, because you are working hotter and vaporizing more metals and such. You should have adequate ventilation with both glasses, but boro will harm you faster if you don't. Does that make sense? It's like a light cigarette versus a nonfilter. They'll both cause damage, but one is worse. So, everybody that has good enough ventilation to lampwork, can work boro too. If you're skimping, stop it.
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  #55  
Old 2006-01-07, 6:46am
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Thanks for your answer MrS...

Ventiltation is something Im not going to scimp on.....Im already looking at what I need and whats available here. I did wonder if you needed something a little more *hardcore* for Boro lol

Do you have a website/name/contact no. for M-10 so I can enquire about shipping please? The M-10 sounds okie dokies to me!

Cheers Jenny
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  #56  
Old 2006-01-07, 6:48am
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You can contact Generations glass, Art Glass House or I can look into it for you.
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  #57  
Old 2006-01-07, 6:53am
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Oh MrS, if you could look into it for me.....that would be super duper! Ta........

Jenny
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  #58  
Old 2006-01-07, 8:08am
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PM me your shipping info and I'll see what I can put together.
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  #59  
Old 2006-01-07, 8:49am
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xtweeksx xtweeksx is offline
im Loving it!
 
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  #60  
Old 2006-01-08, 5:39am
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Cindy2 Cindy2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley
Cindy, I think you hit on a good point... it is different. It definitely doesn't move as fast as soft glass in the same flame... but if you work soft glass in a boro flame, you run into the same problems. It's all about heat control and having the right tools for the job. While boro requires more heat to move at a good beadmaking pace, it pretty much stops moving when you pull it out of the flame. That's something I really had to get used to with soft glass (I dropped glass all over my table for a while )... once soft glass is liquid, it stays liquid much longer. With boro, once the heat is removed, it stiffens up really quickly. This ability to work in slower motion, lends to a lot more control. I imagine what ever glass you learned with, you will have some adjusting when you try the other. Both hold some really insightful lesson about the other glass. I find the similarities far outweigh the differences in the long run. Every little trick or technique can be applied somewhere in working the other glass.
Thanks for validating my point and not looking at me like I have 3 heads! You make a good point about boro - how it stiffens up immediately when it's out of the flame! Arghhhh - that's the thing I think for me with it - so much of the art of soft glass is working with it after it's out of the flame because it's holding that heat and you're managing the heat.

Like you said, there is a learning curve and I'm wanting to work with boro tubing (call me sick but I LOVE to pull points! It's like pulling stringer in soft glass It's not the color of boro I like because that's a whole 'nother issue - it's what you can do with it!

My wish list fund is for an oxy generator - if there will be an oxycon that can put out the heat I need for a bigger torch (I'm thinking piranah or barracuda) then I'm in! Tell me where, when and if it's $600.00 I'm halfway there in savings!!

Good thread (hope I can find it again!
Cindy
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