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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2005-10-05, 8:50am
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evenia evenia is offline
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Default Ventilation Revisited

I read the posts from June and I am a little dizzy from it. Math does that to me. LOL. I think I have it though for what I need and will probably get a glasscraft cause it's easy. My question is how much noise are we talking about here? When I first started torching I used a HH. When I went to my Bobcat I love the quiet. I don't use a concentrator so there isn't any noise there. Out of sheer ignorance I didn't know ventilation is such a big deal. Now I know better. But I have to admit I am totally spoiled by the quiet. I will build my ventilation system hopefully during Thanksgiving break. So does anyone have any easy suggestions for me? Mike, Dale, is there and easy setup or suggestions for stuff from Home Depot or Lowe’s that you recommend? I read the specs but I thought I'd ask you anyway if you guys had a favorite combination of brands or something. I have a very handy DH.

Thanks,
Julie
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  #2  
Old 2005-10-05, 9:13am
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I'm working on a couple of designs, but they aren't finished yet, need some more time.

Moving air is a noisy proposition. There's no way around it. You will have the noise from the fan itself, as well as the noise of the air moving in the ducts (granted, not all that much).

Most kitchen vent hoods you can purchase are usually inadequate for lampworking purposes. They need major modifications to make them work properly:

1. The fan is usually too small and doesn't move enough air.
2. The hood isn't configured for the proper duct size, which will require metal working skills to add a duct adapter of the proper diameter
3. The hood is usually going to need additional baffles to bring the sides down far enough to catch the fumes.
4. The hood is usually too narrow front to back to be of much use, so the "face" usually has to be increased so that a larger area is trapped.

Given these points, it's my opinion that you should start from scratch and not try to modify an existing kitchen hood.

You mentioned the Glasscraft hood - it's a good enough hood, once you put some baffles on it and throw away the corrigated soft wall tubing duct that they supply and replace it with hard wall galvanized metallic ducting.
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  #3  
Old 2005-10-05, 9:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

You mentioned the Glasscraft hood - it's a good enough hood, once you put some baffles on it and throw away the corrigated soft wall tubing duct that they supply and replace it with hard wall galvanized metallic ducting.
Sorry for my ignorance but what will I use as baffles? After the other post I know not to use softwall tubing or to narrow the duct towards the end. Is the size of the output on the Glasscraft OK?

Or would you be willing to let me test some of your designs? I seriously can't do it till the end of November or maybe even as late as Christmas break. (My DH and I work at a university and he is also in grad school). I'm not sure that would be enough time to finish your designs though. You look like a very busy soul!!!!!

Thanks,
Jules
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Old 2005-10-05, 9:54am
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The Glasscraft hoods meets the 100cfm of face velocity rule... The math says it is about 6 sqft opening and it has a 650cfm blower...

As for baffles ( I'm not sure it is correct word, maybe side panels may be better.) you can use sheet metal (available at Home Depot -Lowes) if you don't like the closed in feeling you could even consider clear acrylic sheet ( be aware, acrylic sheeting will burn). What ever you use, remember its to control and direct air flow to keep fresh air between you and torch plume.

Flex duct (ripple wall) causes turbulence in air flow, turbulence causes reduced efficiency and reduces air flow (not good)... Also by pinching down duct at end reduces air flow by causing back pressures that also reduces flow and causes efficiency to go down... The end product of the restrictions may be that after all the investment in time and materials you actual ventilation efficiency may be below expected and not actually helping you.

Dale
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  #5  
Old 2005-10-05, 10:04am
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Jules - the designs I'm working on are essentially "blueprints" for building it yourself, with readily available materials from most home improvement centers. The materials will all be off the shelf components and with the exception of the fan, you should be able to get them all at one store (the fan will probably need to be ordered from Grainger) - although I am thinking about putting together a "kit" as well.

The designs should be ready around the early part of November, and if we do a "kit", that should be ready by Thanksgiving or so (just in time for the holiday rush).
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Old 2005-10-05, 5:18pm
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I posted this at the end of the other ventilation question but I thought I should put it here too since I started this particular thread.

My DH & I have spent the last hour doing some research on the web about NOx. So essentially what we have found is that according to the article listed on the other thread -- http://www.isgb.org/info/safety/nox.shtml -- torches measures 15 parts per million of NOx. Articles discussing related combustion processes highlight that for example a gas stove emits 40 PPM per burner; and emmissions limits for natural gas water heaters suggests up to 80ppm are tolerable. 100 ppm was listed as a current health saftey standard and that california proposing that 30 ppm be considered "low NOx emissions". Texas is at 50 ppm. Once I move my studio into my smaller space I will still get Mikes blue prints and build a ventilation system but it looks like that torches might not be as bad as thought.
Here are the links where we found this so you guys can look at it if you want to. I hope this doesn't piss off anyone, I just wanted to learn more about what I have been breating for the past 2 years because I didn't realize I needed ventilation. Then I wanted to share the facts I found.
http://www.coen.com/i_html/white_costsaf.html
http://www.coen.com/i_html/deltanox.html
http://www.sparetheair.com/faq.cfm
http://www.awma.org/education/elearning/AIR311E.asp
http://www.cleaver-brooks.com/Emissions1.html

Last edited by evenia; 2005-10-05 at 7:08pm.
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  #7  
Old 2005-10-06, 4:29am
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Whoops! The problem that exists with torches and not other "appliances" is that you are sitting 8" from the torch, whereas with other "appliances", they are in another room or another part of the house.

If anything, this makes the NOX issue much more important than the so-called standards show. These standards are designed for "appliances" that are self-venting or have other ventilation provided for them. Don't write off the importance of keeping NOX to an absolute minimum just because of what's written for "appliances".
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Old 2005-10-06, 12:05pm
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lampwork torch = low NOx + close to user + testing has been done minimally

appliances = high NOx + far from user + testing has been done thoroughly

Mike = uses ventilation standards for commercial appliances for lampworking

Kai = would like to see thorough testing done on actual lampwork setups
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Old 2005-10-06, 4:06pm
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Mike = Far more experience with ventilation than anyone else on this board, knows what he is talking about.
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Old 2005-10-06, 6:39pm
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ventilation is one thing, torches are another
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Old 2005-10-06, 7:13pm
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Jokersdesign = uses Mikes high commercial standards for lampworking, because your ventilation can never be to good. You only have 1 brain, don't kill it with poor ventilation.
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Old 2005-10-06, 7:16pm
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too good vs good enough, big difference.
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Old 2005-10-06, 8:48pm
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Wonders where Kaibeads is coming from and why...

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2005-10-06 at 8:54pm.
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Old 2005-10-06, 8:56pm
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Julie, after alot of research, I purchased the Glass Craft hood with the extra blower, added baffles out of furnace ducting and it works great. As for the noise, I think it is very quite even with the 2 blowers. I didn't think I would like working in a metal box atmosphere, but I do, pm me your email address if you'd like a pic of my set up. I know some people think it's pricey, but for me it was the easiest way to get the proper ventilation I needed. Keep in mind you'll need to have adequate make up air for any ventilation system you use to work properly, and also a damper to the outside. I got mine at Grainger for about 50.00.
Good Luck
Edie
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Old 2005-10-07, 4:39am
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Kai, you have an opinion, which I respect, and an unproven theory, which I do not respect. You are free to express your opinion but you are not free to insult people who disagree with you.

I would strongly recommend that if you want to research your theory that you do so, but that you DO NOT try to undermine proved factual data with an unproven and unresearched theory. Just because you personally don't like the factual data doesn't mean that it is wrong.

Just because I use and recommend commercial kitchen ventilation standards does not mean they are wrong to use in a personal household studio. I have been extremely patient and walked you through the logic and reasoning of my reasons for using those standards, something I've never had to do before, because I was trying to educate you. I see now that I completely wasted my time. I'm not angry or upset because I'm sure that the time I spent on you was put to good use by other people who are not so critical of other people's hard work.

I strongly encourage you to do plenty of research. If you do find good data that shows that ventilation can be "torch based" that you publish it so that myself and others can review it and decide for ourselves. But no one is going to believe you until you have hard and strongly data based facts. Right now, with the small amount of research you appear to have done, in the words of my favorite building inspector, "You know enough to be dangerous to others". I mean no disprespect by this, but you don't know anything about ventilation. You've probably read some internet articles, which is good, but nothing can substitute for experience (whether it is personal experience or based on the known experience of others). I have spent many hundreds of hours discussing this issue with mechanical engineers who specialize in air moving, with professional HVAC designers and installers, and most importantly, three years of "inside the box" work with an international designer and builder of air handling equipment. I wrote this company's "fan selector" program several years ago. I KNOW ventilation, what I don't know, I go back to my expert friends.

I am happy to share this information with the glassworking community. What I have provided is worth tens of thousands of dollars in total if individual glassworkers had had to consult with professional HVAC contractors. But I will not tolerate disrespect from someone who doesn't know a damn thing about ventilation.

I will continue to provide this information and I will continue to speak out against any unproven theory.
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Last edited by MikeAurelius; 2005-10-07 at 4:49am. Reason: grammer and sentence structure
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Old 2005-10-07, 9:19am
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Mike,
Thanks for all your explainations and patience. I REALLY apprciate your input and your step by step info. The math part was great cause my DH can take that and make it to your specs. Plus I will purchase one of your blueprints. I am glad I did the NOx research too. It all makes perfect sence to me. Chefs have such sophisticated ventilation not because of stinky food but because of the NOx that is emmited. I had no clue. So it makes sense that 15 ppm of NOx right in our face for hours would be bad! Our lungs will thank you!
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Old 2005-10-07, 9:25am
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You are very welcome! I'm glad I could be of help and assistance.
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Old 2005-10-07, 9:56am
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Mike, I never insulted anyone. And I never said your adopted ventilation standards are wrong.

What I did say was testing should be done to see what ventilation actual lampwork torches require, more importantly what amount of bad stuff actually comes from a lampwork torch. This is something that you are assuming, an unproven theory, and as you say, how is anyone supposed to respect that.
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Old 2005-10-07, 10:00am
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I also like how you assume

Quote:
But I will not tolerate disrespect from someone who doesn't know a damn thing about ventilation.
Not.
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Old 2005-10-07, 11:14am
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see... it would seem to me (granted I'm inexperienced and have little knowledge but I think I have pretty good common sense)
that unless you're sucking your flame into your vent it'd be kinda hard to "over do" ventilation and like someone said you don't get a new brain every 10yrs you know...
yes more testing needs to be done, but until it is, isn't it better to assume the worse=torches put off NoX and long exposures could be hazardous
and something that doesn't seem to be mentioned is the glass. It seems to me that the chemical componets of glass (generally silica, soda ash and limestone) would put off gasses as the glass goes to a liquid state. It would seem to me that this would also create a hazard as well as the metals used to color glass...
I guess I'm not willing to take a chance with my health when it's not necessary.
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