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The Dark Room -- Photo Editing and Picture Taking. Advice, tutorials, questions on all things photoshop, photo editing, and taking pictures of beads or glass.

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  #1  
Old 2010-09-09, 6:08pm
beetslive beetslive is offline
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Default Need advice with photography

Hi everyone,
I just got a new camera(Canon SX20IS) & I'm trying to learn how to photograph my beads. This is all new to me so I need some help. I took some photos today that look OK but I would love some technical criticism with solutions. I can take the critique because that is how I will learn. I'm experimenting with lighting,settings etc & I'm not sure where to go from here. Thanks in advance for any help. Debbie


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  #2  
Old 2010-09-10, 3:42pm
Mike Jordan Mike Jordan is offline
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You might go over what you are using now, besides the camera. What kind of lights are you using, do you have a light tent of any kind (store bought or home made) and what kind of editing software are you using on your images after you get them out of the camera. And are you stuck with a dirt cheap budget or can you purchase a few things if you know it will help you out? Knowing what you have and use now will give others a starting point.

Your lighting isn't that bad on the ones above, but it is flat and dull. You captured the color in the beads, but it doesn't jump out and pop like I'm sure you want. If you are using Elements or some photo editor that gives you some controls, you might try increasing your contrast a bit. That helps bring out color and detail in some flat lit objects. Of course it's always better to start out with the lighting as close to perfect as possible so you don't have to compensate very much in the editing software. But in a perfect world, none of us would need help either.

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Old 2010-09-10, 7:36pm
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I have the whole Tabletop studio set up(lights tent etc) & I'm using Photoshop elements for editing. I agree with you about the color being OK but it looks flat& dull & I don't know why. I'm having a hard time figuring out where to put the lights & not get too much bright reflection. I don't understand what I am doing wrong for the pics to look flat. Any ideas? I also see people taking very close up pics but when I try to get too close the pictures are blurry. I'm not sure what kind of setting to use. I'm still reading my camera manuel but a lot of it is "Chinese" to me. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-10, 7:52pm
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You need to be using the macro setting on your camera to take close up shots.


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Originally Posted by beetslive View Post
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I have the whole Tabletop studio set up(lights tent etc) & I'm using Photoshop elements for editing. I agree with you about the color being OK but it looks flat& dull & I don't know why. I'm having a hard time figuring out where to put the lights & not get too much bright reflection. I don't understand what I am doing wrong for the pics to look flat. Any ideas? I also see people taking very close up pics but when I try to get too close the pictures are blurry. I'm not sure what kind of setting to use. I'm still reading my camera manuel but a lot of it is "Chinese" to me. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-10, 9:10pm
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I did use the macro setting but I must be doing something wrong. Back to the manuel Thanks,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-10, 10:58pm
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With reflective surfaces, you usually want as diffused lighting as you can get. This will reduce or eleminate the bright highlights and shadows. You really want a little bit of both, but that comes with pratice know how much and where to have them show.

You may be under exposing a bit and your color balance may be off a little. Are you putting your camera on a tripod? If so and if it allows you to control the shutter speed, you can slow it down so you can take longer exposures. With macro photography where you are shooting very close to the object, you lose a lot of depth of field (the distance that is in focus from in front of the object to behind it). Your depth of field will be very shollow, which means the front of your bead could be in focus and the back or just behind it can be out of focus. To over come this, you need a small fstop. A small depth of field is going to need a slower shutter speed or more light or a higher ISO. So when you are reading your manual, not how you can change your ISO, shutter speed and fstop. Later on, you will use all three.

On your color balance, unless you have a calibration target (this is a piece of cloth or plastic that is a neuteral gray or non-reflective white, which you use to set your color balance) you will need to find something else that is non-reflective white to use. White paper is not a good choice because it is reflective and has chemicals that make it bright white. They fool the eyes real well, but the camera sees through it.

One trick is to use a white coffee filter (un-used ) if you have one. Another one is to use a clean white filter face mask (which all glass people should have). Both of these are pretty close and work in a pinch. What you do is set the filter in your light tent and put one of your beads in it, set your lights up the way you are going to shoot and take a couple of pictures. Then remove the filter. You can use one of these images to set the white balance in your camera or use Elements to adjust it. In Elements (I assume it will let you do this, but I'm not sure) ifyou have the Levels setting, you bring the image up with the filter, select the right eye drop (which is for white) and click on the filter. This will set the white color balance of the image. If your color balance was off by much, you will see the color change in the bead to look more natural (I'll ignore having a calibrated monitor). You would use the setting with the eyedropper and apply it to all of the other images taken with your lights all set up the same way.

What I do sometimes is leave my color calibrater in the picture but far enough away that I'll be able to crop it out in the computer. This way I can always click on it with the right eye dropper to adjust the color. My calibration card also has gray and black. The middle eye dropper would click on the gray area and the left one would click on the black area. This way you can adjust your highlights (white), mid-tones (gray) and shadows (black).

This is probably way more than you want (or need) to know right now, but I'll leave it anyway. Sometimes when it comes to photography it is easier to show because trying to explain something gets way to complicated sounding.

One other thing, if your camera has the historgram display, learn to use that. That is probably one of the most important tools the camera has and most people never even use it. You can set your exposure with it and make sure you aren't blowing out highlights or losing details in the shadows. So if you have that, look it up in the manual as well.

Mike
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Old 2010-09-11, 8:01pm
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Wow Mike! Thanks for all the great info. I've got a lot of research & experimenting to do. I'll work on it this week & post more pics as I go. I am using a tripod & tried some of the things you said about but I have to read my manuel more to see if I'm doing it right. I didn't get too close to the beads to try to get closeups( maybe 10"away). When I try to zoom in it goes blurry. Should I be zooming in for a closeup or blowing it up in Elements? My lights are on each side so it's getting diffused by the photo tent. Does it need more diffusing than that?
("What I do sometimes is leave my color calibrater in the picture but far enough away that I'll be able to crop it out in the computer. This way I can always click on it with the right eye dropper to adjust the color")
I have a question about this statement. Sorry if I seem stupid but I want to make sure I understand. When you say "color caliper" do you mean the white coffee filter?
I'll check out the histogram & see if I have it. Again thanks for all your great help!
By the way I see you live in Oregon. My brother lives in Portland. I try to get out there once every year or two. He moved there in 1973 & never came back east.
Thanks,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-11, 8:43pm
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BTW Debbie, your beads are stunning. I think I am in love with all of them!!!
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Old 2010-09-11, 8:50pm
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Thanks so much. Where is the Shrimp Shack? Debbie
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Old 2010-09-12, 3:15pm
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If you are on the micro setting, I don't think you can zoom in. I'm not sure though as I'm not familiar with that camera. Also, when you zoom, your closest distance that you can focus changes further out from the object. So you may be running into that as well. What you could do is zoom all the way out, then move the camera back and forth until you are in focus again. I assume this has a live display on the camera and you can see when that happens.

I just looked at the specs on the camera and it says the focusing range is:

Normal: 1.6 ft./50cm-infinity (W), 3.3 ft./1m-infinity (T)
Macro: 3.9 in.-1.6 ft./10-50cm (W)
Super macro: 0-3.9 in./0-10cm (W)

So when you are in Macro you have to be within 3.9 inches or no further than 1.6 feet. In Super macro you have to stay within 0 to 3.9 inches of the object. It sounds like just Macro will work for you, plus that gives you a deeper area to work with.

You want to fill the screen with as much image as you can when you take the picture. The bigger the image is in the camera, the less you have to blow it up in Elements. The more you have to blow up something, the more quality you lose in the final appearance. This isn't as important if you are only creating images for the web, since those won't be much bigger than 600 or 700 pixels on the long side for a normal screen view. If you are going to be getting prints made and need large prints, then the size you start with from the camera would be more important.

On the color calibrator, yes,I mean the coffee filter. You want to leave it just far enough away from the beads so you can crop it out after you set the color balance. Here is a picture of one of the color calibrators I use (this was a test, so that is why it's sitting so close to the glass):



I have about 3 or 4 different things I can use and they are well worth it when the color needs to be correct. Most of mine I got to use in other photography work before I started shooting glass though.

I live just West of Portland (about 15 miles) and work down town Portland. I grew up in the Northwest and can understand why he didn't go back East.

Mike
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Old 2010-09-12, 9:05pm
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Thanks again Mike! I really appreciate all your knowledge. I just got home from being away for the weekend so I can do some experimenting this week. I'll post some pics later. Thanks again,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-13, 8:16pm
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OK,here's some new photos I took today with your suggestions. Please let me know what you think. Any better? Thanks,Debbie


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Old 2010-09-13, 8:27pm
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They stand out more, Debbie and the color does look more real. Maybe you went a little too much this time on lighting as it's a little harsher this time than last. Give the steps you took on this. Did you increase the exposure and contrast in Elements or expose for a longer time when taking the picture? Did you change your lighting with this set up or use it the same as last time?

This is good though because you can see what the changes did to the beads appearance. The trick is learning what change is good and keep going in that direction. But I think you made some progress here.

Mike
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Old 2010-09-13, 8:41pm
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Hi Mike,
I kindof tried everything. I played with aperture & shutter speed & ISO with the camera. I also tried my lights in different positions. I also tried what you said about using the coffee filter technique. I took a bunch of photos & I thought these were the best. It's a learning process. I'll keep trying. Thanks again,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-15, 9:55pm
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OK,here's some new photos. I'm still experimenting. Thanks for looking. Debbie
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Old 2010-09-15, 10:45pm
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Your colors good, the images are very sharp, so you must be getting the hang of your focus. Lighting is nicely even, with just a hint of shadows. Very good job.

You need to add a bit more diffusion to soften the light a little more and either decrease your exposure a bit or use a smaller fstop to reduce the exposure. My choice would be to use a smaller fstop (smaller fstop means a larger number. If you shot at f4 use f8. If f8 use f110 to reduce the amount of light exposuing the image. Using a smaller fstop not only reduces the exposure but increases the depth of field. Although your depth of field is pretty good here, more depth of field is always good in most cases.

For additional diffusion you can try adding a layer of tissue paper or thin white nylon material between the tent and lights. By adding another diffusion layer you may not need to adjust your fstop any, since another layer will also reduce the exposure. So it may balance out.

Have you used your histogram yet? The shots above will probably show the histogram bunched towards the right of the graph. Ignore the peaks and go by how far it is right and left on the bar. If it's more to the right, you are over exposing. If it's more to the left, you are under exposing. What you want is it equal between the right and left, ideally with it just touching or very close to touching both the left and right sides. But it can also be bunched together as long as the bulk is in the middle or just a smidgen to the left. I like to under expose about a third of an fstop because this can really pop the colors so they stand out.

One other suggestion... you have light colored rocks and light colored objects. Use a black background with this. You will find that that will focus the eyes on your jewlery a lot more, which is your main point of interest anyway. I'm more partial to black or dark backgrouns (like dark blue, dark brown, charcoal, etc.) in most cases for this reason. I even got very good at shooting black dogs on a black background when I did a lot of dog photography and found it very effective.

Nice job. You are doing very well. Just keep track of what you change and how it affects what you are doing and you will be able to make smaller and more precise changes as you practice.

Mike
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Old 2010-09-16, 9:02am
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Thanks again Mike for all your help! I hope other people are learning from this too. I have been looking at my histograms & you are right-most of them are to the right side. I've been also using a f-stop from 2.8-4 so I will try a higher #. I've tried diffusing the light with a piece of paper when I have too much glare. I'll try some tissue paper as you suggested. I'll experiment with a black background next although I do like the reflective surface.I also want to learn how to take my own jury slides for art shows but I think they mostly want gradiated paper backing. I need to figure out editing pics for that which I'm sure is different.
I still can't figure out how other people get such close up shots of their beads. Is it done in the editing? I can only get so close to my subject using macro or it gets blurry. Using macro I can't zoom in without it getting blurry. I can only get so close using my tripod too. These are probably really stupid questions-sorry.
I'm off to try more! Thanks again. When I get this down pat I'll owe you a bead.
Debbie
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Old 2010-09-16, 3:04pm
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Unless the instructions of the juried session specific a specific background, it's use what ever makes your jewlery look it's best. The reason many use a graduated background is because the graduation is suppose to lead the eyes to the oject. A light area inside a dark area is going to attract the eyes faster than just a dark area or just a light colored area. The reverse is also true. A dark area within a large white or light colored area will attract the eyes to look at it. The reason I like dark backgrounds is that usually my object is lit by the lights causing it to stand out in a field of dark. Of course nothing is written in concrete and it all comes from knowing what works for whatever it is you are taking a picture of. And unless you are one of those gifted people that just know what is going to work before you even set your camera up, it takes practice and time to learn what works best.

It sounds like you are not putting your camera on super macro and is just on macro. It was the super macro that let you get closer than 3.9 inches. If you can't focus closer than that, then you are in the macro setting. If you can't focus closer than 1 foot 6 inches, then you are in normal mode.

Shooting at f4 doesn't give you a lot of depth of field, so try to get it to at least f8 if you can. If you have to use a longer shutter speed, that's ok since you are on a tripod. When I've shot in lighting like this, I've gone as long as 3 or seconds at f16 to get the proper exposure. I like to keep my ISO at 100 or maybe 200 to keep the quality the best. The higher your ISO the more noise the image can have if you are making big enlargements. It's not as apparent in web size images so you can use a higher ISO and get away with it. Although it is nice when you can set everything at their optimum setting and don't have to "get away with it".

No, they are not stupid questions. It's questions that a lot of people have when they are starting out in photography and are trying to do better than just snapshots. And a lot don't even know to ask the questions, so you are a lot further ahead than many.

Mike
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Old 2010-09-16, 3:49pm
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Well I just got done taking some pics & had a bad session.First of all the f-stop on my camera only goes from 2.8-8.I tried doing what you said with the histogram & every time I had the scale on the left side the pic was dark. When ever I try to put the f-stop higher the pic gets dark. I tried all kinds of combos & the histogram always goes to the right if the pic has enough light. I don't know what I am doing wrong?Do I take a dark pic & brighten it in photoshop?
I tried using a black acrylic background but the problem is I get this reflection from the top of the tent. What can I do to cover that. Maybe something black inside on the top?
I have been using just macro. Super macro can only be used in a couple of modes & i haven't tried it yet.
I'll post some pics later tonight. I'm off to make some beads. I'm too frustrated to try more pics today.
Thanks,Debbie
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Old 2010-09-16, 9:16pm
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OK here's the pics I took today. I'm not thrilled with any of them. See the reflection on the ones I used the black background? How can I avoid that? I'll try super macro tomorrow. Debbie






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Old 2010-09-16, 9:40pm
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Those look pretty good! I prefer the gray background, FWIW.

So, this is totally off the subject, but how did you come about your handle? I'm reading it as "Beets live" and I'm so curious!
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Old 2010-09-16, 9:50pm
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It's a weird story. My x husband's nick name growing up was "Beets"(I'm not sure how he got the nickname). People he's known since childhood still call him that. When I opened up my first e-mail account years ago he wanted "beetslive". Even though we are now divorced I still use it because I have done business with that name for many years. So for lots of things I still use it(mostly because I hate trying to remember different user names). My business name is "Debbie's Treasures" though. Anyway I told you it was a weird story. Thanks for the comment on my photos. It's a big & frustrating learning process! Debbie
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Old 2010-09-16, 10:00pm
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How funny! Well, it's a pretty cool name... and memorable!
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Old 2010-09-17, 7:44am
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Quote:
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You need to be using the macro setting on your camera to take close up shots.
Not necessarily. I have never once used the macro setting on my camera. Macro gives a shallow depth of field and makes pictures look flat.

I get much, much better results by using the standard setting and zooming in.

This was taken with a regular 18-55 lens on manual setting:

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Old 2010-09-17, 9:57am
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Thanks Cosmo. I'll give it a try. At this point I'll try anything! Debbie
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Old 2010-09-17, 1:39pm
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Here's a few new pics I did today. I'm still experimenting. The set of beads are the same ones on black & on frosted clear.The larger bead was done in super macro. Debbie


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Old 2010-09-18, 2:57pm
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Also, check and see what the focus point setting is on. Whenever I photograph my jewelry, I always use the center point focus. To learn more abut your camera, google "canon camera user forums". You can learn a lot specific to your camera there. I have a Pentax and I have learned a ton about my camera and using it from the Pentax forum.
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Old 2010-09-18, 3:02pm
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Thanks! I'll check out the forums & see what else I can learn. Debbie
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Old 2010-09-18, 8:21pm
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Thanks so much. Where is the Shrimp Shack? Debbie
It's just the name I give home. I like shrimp.
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Old 2010-09-18, 8:47pm
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How cute! I love shrimp too. I love chocolate even better. Maybe I should call my house chocolate shack? What do you think? Debbie
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