A serious concern about sculptural work

gemsinbloom · #1 2012-05-26, 3:31pm

I was going to dive into sculptural awhile ago, especially floral but I first purchased a few pieces from different designers from different parts of the world to add to my collection.

I never designed jewelry with them. I just had them sitting on my table for a few months so I could admire them and feel inspired.

Unfortunately, all but one piece is now broken. This really has me concerned. Is this typical of sculptural pieces?

I don't want to invest a lot of time and money into this end of lampworking if I cannot expect the pieces to be long lasting like other lampwork beads. And this is no reflection on any of the lampworkers I purchased from. I just really want to understand as I wanted to learn this type of work myself. I have since purchased a few tutorials as well.

Please enlighten me on this topic, thanks!

Karen Hardy · #2 2012-05-26, 4:17pm

You need to be a little more specific.

Did they break on their own? Was it something like they
were not properly annealed and they cracked?

Did they fall over and pieces break off?

What caused the breakage, and what kinds of sculptural beads
were they - florals? scrolling? something with handles?

Pics of the breaks would be helpful too.

gemsinbloom · #3 2012-05-26, 4:19pm

They were just sitting on a table. In time I would find pieces that were sticking out in floral work had fallen off. I dont want to post pics as I dont want to hurt anyone's feelings. I guess I am asking, is it possible to make sculptural work that will be long lasting as other types of beads are with proper annealing.

NLC Beads · #4 2012-05-26, 5:17pm

Yes, it is. They need plenty of insurance heat while making them and extra care after being made just so they're not banged into other things - annealing can't help if an object is struck - but it's quite possible. There may have been some stress introduced when shipped if they weren't packed securely enough (mine shouldn't move around in their packages when travelling) that caused bits to fall off later, but this isn't normal.

gemsinbloom · #5 2012-05-26, 5:20pm

This is reassuring to read , thank you NLC.

NLC Beads · #6 2012-05-26, 5:24pm

I've made sculptural beads since I started 9 years ago - for 3 years they were batch annealed and still did very well. Lyn (lunamoonshadow) wore one of my early frogs on a chain 24/7, even when sleeping, and it survived.

Take good care of them while they're being made, make sure they're evenly warm when going into the kiln (or fiber blanket/vermiclite to be batch annealed later - NO PEEKING if you do that until they're cool), keep all parts warm while working, and you should do great.

Cherri · #7 2012-05-26, 5:31pm

I am by no means an expert or even a true novice. However, I can tell you of my experience, research and understanding and I will not be offended if I am corrected.

I really want to learn more about sculpture and originally I was going boro. Costs and current circumstances placed me in the soft glass. At first I was resigned, but then discovered that I could do sculpture with soft glass. YEAH. Now to just get enough help, because I too, have to be limited to travel and class availability. Soooo to the crook of it.

Just before I ordered my supplies I finally found someone willing to teach glass blowing in my area. The classes (1 hour each and were pricey). I immediately dug harder into researching both the boro and the soft glass. One of the things noted by both media artisans was the need for annealing properly. I went ahead and took a couple of classes from the person. (the class part is not really important, except that I was not impressed) Questions were not really answered. ONE of which was "Do I need to get a kiln so that I can anneal these pieces once I do them? Do you anneal your stuff" This question arose after the piece done in the first class broke in my hand 2 days after doing them. The answer I got was "NO, I don't anneal my stuff, I have been doing glass for X number of years and I flame anneal my stuff, so I don't need to kiln anneal it." I found this to be in direct conflict to my research.

So I believe the answer to be yes the glass should be annealed to relieve the stress built up in the glass created when working it in the flame. There is a big long scientific explanation for it but that is for someone far smarter than me.

The glassblower that I am speaking of is a production worker. Trinkets for flea-markets, fairs and such. Done quickly, left to cool and handed to the customer. Nothing wrong with making a living at it, but I am of the opinion that it is different caliber from the work done here.

I am sure someone more educated and seasoned will jump in and give their opinion.
I should add that the pieces were decent sized and had added pieces. The single pieced items are still fine.

Cher

NLC Beads · #8 2012-05-26, 5:36pm

Cher - Annealing is important, you were sadly misinformed. (So was I when I took my first class - I was told we weren't making anything good enough to bother annealing it.) I'm emphasizing it in my above post, thanks.

Cherri · #9 2012-05-26, 5:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLC Beads

Cher - Annealing is important, you were sadly misinformed. (So was I when I took my first class - I was told we weren't making anything good enough to bother annealing it.) I'm emphasizing it in my above post, thanks.

Well thank you. I was misinformed. Only thing is I knew it because I researched like a mad person.

Thank you for the confirmation.

NLC Beads · #10 2012-05-26, 5:56pm

I'm glad you knew it - I doubt your teacher was malicious, just misinformed as well. I took a class with Emilio Santini and he said that the way you describe - make, cool, sell - is very common in Italy as well.

designerbeads · #11 2012-05-28, 8:46am

I wonder if it is not better to tell the maker, if they are not aware that things are breaking then they may think all is good with their process.

I think I would appreciate knowing it myself... I don't do sculptural but I know I have had occasional cracking issues with certain color combinations which did not show up for months. I avoid those combos now.

Laurie

LarryC · #12 2012-05-28, 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by gemsinbloom

I was going to dive into sculptural awhile ago, especially floral but I first purchased a few pieces from different designers from different parts of the world to add to my collection.

I never designed jewelry with them. I just had them sitting on my table for a few months so I could admire them and feel inspired.

Unfortunately, all but one piece is now broken. This really has me concerned. Is this typical of sculptural pieces?

I don't want to invest a lot of time and money into this end of lampworking if I cannot expect the pieces to be long lasting like other lampwork beads. And this is no reflection on any of the lampworkers I purchased from. I just really want to understand as I wanted to learn this type of work myself. I have since purchased a few tutorials as well.

Please enlighten me on this topic, thanks!

Annealing must be proper and the glasses used must be compatible. I hear a lot about folks on here mixing families of glass with differing COEs and viscosities. Without full compatibility testing done, this is a bad practice. As has been mentioned many times in the past here, just because it survives long enough to be sold does NOT mean it will continue to for years. Use good sound practices with a basis in good material science and you should not have a problem.

ElizabethCreations · #13 2012-05-28, 10:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by designerbeads

I wonder if it is not better to tell the maker, if they are not aware that things are breaking then they may think all is good with their process.

I think I would appreciate knowing it myself... I don't do sculptural but I know I have had occasional cracking issues with certain color combinations which did not show up for months. I avoid those combos now.

Laurie

I agree... you should let this person know about the breakage!

suzanne · #14 2012-05-28, 12:39pm

If this was one of my pieces I would wanna know! That would mean that either something is wrong with my kiln or with the way I work!

Puddy Tat Glass · #15 2012-05-28, 2:10pm

I'm with Suzanne, I'd want to know so I could make whatever corrections were necessary.

Mountain Snail · #16 2012-05-28, 6:35pm

When I was first starting bead making, I ordered my kiln and torch and could not wait for them to arrive so I made a glass jelly fish bead on my hot head. It exploded a few days later.

With no warning we just heard the ting crack.

Mitosis Glass · #17 2012-05-28, 6:54pm

I don't make sculptural pieces but if anything of mine has developed cracks I would like to know. Definitely contact the artist and tell them.

ellyloo · #18 2012-05-28, 8:24pm

I always try to make sure that the parts that I am putting on (like my wings on my goddesses) --are SECURELY on. You can swipe glass on and make pretty wings, but unless I get in there, into the seam with a tiny flame and watch the base and wing glass melt into each other, I always worry that they'll pop off.

Even so, I advise not to wear on a LONG chain that will clink into any countertops or swing into things, because it will take less work to knock a wing off than it would to crack a round bead.

If any fall off on my customers, I sure would hope they would let me know.

ETA: My goddesses are more likely to split because i was paying too much attention to the wings and let the rest cool too much. But I keep them around for a long time before I sell them, so theyre all rubbing shoulders with each other and if it breaks, it'll break in MY bead box.

spixton · #19 2012-05-28, 9:21pm

I do tons of sculpture and as far as I know, with very little breakage. Having said that, you do need to be careful. As others have said, extra heat is needed and very thin sticky out things (wings, petals etc) can be a problem. I've ended up doing slightly thicker wings and petals than I would otherwise. I think 90 COE Bullseye is a bit stronger but that might not be true.

When making jewelry, I'd NEVER put a sculptural flower etc on a bracelet. Necklaces and earrings are fine. Bracelets get too beat up, they'll never last IMHO. I have several flower necklaces, one I've worn for 10 years with no problem. However, you do need to make sure the petals are securely attached to the base.

truegem · #20 2012-05-29, 1:24am

I get the idea that the teacher was saying we don't need to anneal here, in the class, because we're just learning. But he/she should have emphasized how important it is to anneal if you want to create true quality work. To me, it isn't even worth a penny if it isn't annealed.

Nolly · #21 2012-05-29, 4:24am

My first teacher also said that "annealing" in a thermal blanket was sufficient, and honestly, my first beads (pointy ends and all) are still with me. However, when I make a sample flower to test for color, it breaks while cooling on the bench.

I believe that Italian and other sculptural artists make their work in such a way that they don't go back and reheat finished areas. There is no "insurance heat" involved; if you don't go back, you don't have thermal shocking, at least in theory. Several years ago, Lucio Bubacco made a huge piece at a Gathering--maybe 3-4 feet tall--but each individual component was roughly 5-6mm or smaller. If I'd known I'd become interested in sculptural work, maybe I would have delayed my trip to the bar and learned something instead.

I surely hope that it wasn't one of my flowers that broke ... if so, I'll replace it if you send me the pieces.

The advice here is good; you do need to anneal, you need to make sure you get into the joins with heat--especially if you're using boro. I've had wings pop off, too. Soft glass is more forgiving; I heard it described as "sticky."

If you want to batch anneal, you might try the "beads" that ArtCo sells--I've found them to be useful when I'm demoing, or even vermiculite in a crockpot. You might have better luck than with a thermal blanket.

Good luck!

Nollly

beauxbead · #22 2012-05-29, 8:23pm

Ah some great questions, great responses, good teaching and learning going on here. I will say to the original question with certainty that a sculpture with any 3d sculptural aspects will never be as strong as a round bead. Sculptures can be wonderful expressions but.... The bead will still outlast them all! Bead on>

Please tell the artists. Some of them may be happy to analyze there fault and improve. you might even end up with a new sculpture.

beauxbead · #23 2012-05-29, 8:33pm

Ah some great questions, great responses, good teaching and learning going on here. I will say to the original question with certainty that a sculpture with any 3d sculptural aspects will never be as strong as a round bead. Sculptures can be wonderful expressions but.... The bead will still outlast them all! Bead on>
Please tell the artists for there sake. They will likely be a little

at first but will be happy to analyze the problem for future growth.

Anneal or forever brake your glass

Lisi · #24 2012-05-29, 8:40pm

Now this is JMHO...but I know a lot of people are going to agree with me. Two of the best torches out there for soft glass sculptural work are the Mini CC (and other Carlisle torches), and the Nortels, because of the bushy flame and its radiant heat. You can do soft glass sculpturals on a torch like the GTTs with the sharper, hotter, and more focused flame, but that takes a lot of experience with obtaining all over insurance heat before popping work into the kiln. Boro is a whole different animal and doesn't need as much of that constant insurance heat (radiant heat) to avoid shattering while working, so the GTTs are great for boro sculpturals.

Several years ago I was making newbie sculptural roses (big 'uns, 30mm across) and I did not feel comfortable making them with the Bobcat, so I stopped. These had petals that I attached to a base cylinder bead, after keeping them warm and toasty on a coffee mug warmer plate. I made this one and several others with the Mini CC back in 2004, I think that was the year. Still in one piece.

ellyloo · #25 2012-06-01, 8:30am

i was in a class once too, and the first things we made were not put in the annealer. They were tiny and practice work, so he said don't bother. they're still alive. But again, they were teeny weeny sculptural pieces.

The other thigns that we spent hours on, ...THEY were totally annealed.

Regarding LIsi's comment: I never made more frit than when i switched over to a Cricket.

INtense sharp heat... took a while to find the right spots for different things. Still learning.

SunDoorBeads · #26 2012-06-04, 4:39pm

I am hoping this helps here since I have made quite a bit of sculptural pieces and small blown vessels. Glass is a science as much as it is an art and understanding the science behind it is crucial in making a lasting piece of art. Stresses in glass are normal they occur when we press, roll or manipulate it happens when we bump it against the kiln before it has annealed and happens when we add inclusions like metals, CZ's and even off COE frit. However it is how the glass molecules re-attach themselves that makes the difference- in soft glass when the molecules are heated they separate from their "partner" at a rate greater than the harder glasses so in theory if there is a stress added before that molecule can find his partner again there will be a crack or other noticeable issue. You also have to remember that glass is not a true solid but that at a molecular level it is in constant motion which makes it different from a true solid. If you ever look at a 200 year old window you will see what I mean- the top is thinner and the bottom is thicker from the slow movement over time.

I guess what I am trying to say is with all that if your artists are leaving a lot of the "cooling and mating" process to chance by not annealing you will never have a piece that is as reliable as one where the molecules were given time to find their mate again. If you are taking the care to ensure this then you will be fine. Bottom line now that I know the science behind glass I don't listen to anyone who says "it's fine I do this all the time" I will anneal because that is what the glass needs!

Do try sculptural work it is so satisfying! I love making a blown vessel and adding handles and decorations and then a little cork!! Good Luck!

luminous · #27 2012-06-05, 8:05am

I've had an issue recently with some fish beads I made, barrels with fins and tails. I really liked them and got on a roll of making quite a few.
They were all annealed and compatible glass but the majority of them have since broken. I did throw a bunch of them made into necklaces in a container together so when I found a few broken I figured it was becuase I was treating them too rough, but then I had one just hanging on my dreeser and later found apiece broken.
So glad I didn't sell any but it has made me scared to make anything with any thin or sticking out bits for fear they won't last, (if I had sold any I would want the buyer to let me know too)