? For the Boro Experts

Rose · #1 2013-06-21, 5:35am

I'm curious about something. When using silver colors in small encased beads I get vibrant colors and reactions. If I make a pendant or marble that is covered with clear I get totally different results. I know from reading at The Melting Pot that this is the norm. I've tried getting around this by making pendants very thin, changing the way I lay down layers, changing the way I lay down the clear (thin to thick), holding my breath, tilting my head different ways...... etc. No matter what I do the colors are not vibrant and in many cases colors change to muddy looking. I know to keep it very hot and not flash it back and forth in the flame and since this is the norm do you know why this is? On the other hand I see bright clear color in some of those jellies after several striking cycles. I'm really wanting to understand this......

LarryC · #2 2013-06-21, 6:41am

What torch are you using? What is your oxygen source? Tanked? Concentrator? Which colors are you using.

Rose · #3 2013-06-21, 8:40am

I'm using a Scorpion with 2 M-20's.

After researching at the other forum (probably should have asked there) this is the norm. I'm talking about AP, TAP, Silver Creek, and all the rest. I guess that's why we don't see these colors used in marbles and such as they come out a muddy tan? I'm just curious why they work with beads.

This should explain it better

framerak · #4 2013-06-21, 9:33am

Rose, those colors ARE seen in marbles. There are any number of reasons that you're getting muddy colors but the most likely culprits are that you're not getting the glass hot enough then letting it cool and striking it properly, your flame is a reduction flame (2 M-20's is still more of a reduction environment than you'd think), or both.
Practice, practice, practice...

Dragonharper · #5 2013-06-21, 9:46am

IF you look on the TAG website, at the Mega Mai Tia, the sample is a marble made from MMT. MMT is a very highly saturated silver color in the Amber Purple family. Angela is correct, silver colors need to be screaming hot, darn near white hot, when applied and then several kiln strikes to get the color you want. Also the need to be worked in an oxidizing flame to keep the metals burned off.

Rose · #6 2013-06-21, 10:53am

Ok, I need to keep trying, then. I use Amazon Night to test my flame so I thought I was ok. Thank you for the feedback! I still don't understand why beads turn out but not other stuff. Back to the torch.....

Oh, I'll add that I try to work in a neutral flame and my torch tends to boil stuff..... I have Mega Mai Tai so I'll try it. I wonder if that marble has clear over it or not. Anyways, I'm VERY happy to hear it's my technique because I think I can work through that.

LarryC · #7 2013-06-21, 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Ok, I need to keep trying, then. I use Amazon Night to test my flame so I thought I was ok. Thank you for the feedback! I still don't understand why beads turn out but not other stuff. Back to the torch.....

Oh, I'll add that I try to work in a neutral flame and my torch tends to boil stuff..... I have Mega Mai Tai so I'll try it. I wonder if that marble has clear over it or not. Anyways, I'm VERY happy to hear it's my technique because I think I can work through that.

you must have missed the part about your flame being primarily in reduction as well. Your oxycons will make it hard to use the colors.

Rose · #8 2013-06-21, 11:31am

No, I didn't miss it. But I seem to be able to burn the haze off while making beads with the neutral flame. I guess I got that from GA (?) where they say to mainly use a neutral flame for their glass. I'll try more.

Baywinger · #9 2013-06-21, 11:34am

I have 3 m20's and tanks, I find the colors are much richer with my tanks than on the 3 m20's they will also not maintain enough heat for marbles even though I feed the all three into a holding tank, I find them just fine for beads but with larger amounts of glass like marbles I use my tanks.

Rose · #10 2013-06-21, 12:47pm

Thanks Morgan. I have a holding tank, too. I guess I can't do the things I want to do. Bummer.

Rough_necked · #11 2013-06-21, 2:14pm

Name: ImageUploadedByTapatalk1371848709.678131.jpg
Views: 1200
Size: 75.6 KB

I think some of it depends on how deep the encasment is. When using heavy encasment I can't get the colors hot enough to strike. I am going to try some smaller marbles later to see. I tube encased this piece(ga ruby, dragons eye and cobalt 6) and got decent colors in my opinion. It was on medium wall tube. The color never saw the flame so I am a little curious about the haze appearing as I thought the clear could protect it. but then again i like the look in this piece. i run a scorpion on 2 5lpm concentrators. I only used the outer fire when melting it in, shaping was done with the centerfire on all 10lpm.

Chuck

Rough_necked · #12 2013-06-21, 2:23pm

Oh and some colors I just don't have enough oxy to do anything with. Ns English ivy just reduces with very little chance of burning off the haze.

Rose · #13 2013-06-21, 2:58pm

You did damn good there Chuck, for being on 2 5's. Been there. I think I may have trouble shooted some of the issue but will have to wait to see what it looks like tomorrow. I'll report back.

Rose · #14 2013-06-22, 4:50am

Well, it's looking up a bit. No pics yet as I want to test more and my shoulders are not cooperating. A couple of things going on.... I had changed my hoses around and had 2 M-20's on the back fire and a M-5 on the front. Went back to a M-20 on both the front and back and took off the 5. Seems much hotter now. The other thing is I've been working mostly soft glass since I got the 2nd M-20 about a year ago. So I lost my feel for boro and how much to crank those valves open. For beads it worked but nothing bigger.I will test this more and come back with pics of the difference. It won't be like having tanks (which I can't get downstairs) but it should be a lot better. Thanks everyone!

Dragonharper · #15 2013-06-23, 8:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Ok, I need to keep trying, then. I use Amazon Night to test my flame so I thought I was ok. Thank you for the feedback! I still don't understand why beads turn out but not other stuff. Back to the torch.....

Oh, I'll add that I try to work in a neutral flame and my torch tends to boil stuff..... I have Mega Mai Tai so I'll try it. I wonder if that marble has clear over it or not. Anyways, I'm VERY happy to hear it's my technique because I think I can work through that.

If you're boiling you are too close the the torch, work further out. This will also aid in obtaining better flame chemistry. Remember on a surface mix torch the oxy and the fuel mix as they exit the torch face, complete combustion happens further out in the flame than on a premix.

Rose · #16 2013-06-23, 10:00am

Thanks Roy, I'm trying to do that especially with the stringers.

Ok, here is another batch. I used clear frit on most of them as you can see. The colors are clearer than before, I guess. Other color combos may be better, tho. I would LOVE to see pics of anybody else's. I'm self taught (with LE help) and don't see much around besides fumed.

Dragonharper · #17 2013-06-23, 10:08am

Those look great. Do you Mr. Smiley's video?

Rose · #18 2013-06-23, 11:37am

Yes, I have his video. He's making his in another way. Doing it like he does I have no issue. I am just trying to use the ap family with clear and a backing. That is where I can't get the vibrant colors. That's why I'd like to see other's work. When I look at marbles and pendants on other sites I don't see what people here are saying can be done. I see fuming, lots of blue, creme, crayon, etc. but not the ap family showing their colors. I know I can get it without putting clear on top. But using clear, aside from beads, show me please.

Rose · #19 2013-06-24, 10:44am

Ya know what? My problem has nothing to do with my torch or oxygen. It was my process. I went back to Brent's DVD and it helped a lot.

kikosun · #20 2013-06-24, 8:19pm

So what was wrong with your process if you don't mind me asking? I'm a newb hoping to learn something from your experience :-p Looks like I need to put that video on my wish list!

PennyLane · #21 2013-06-25, 7:47am

Yes, I'd like to know too. I work boro on two oxycons, have the DVD, but still don't know what was different during the process. Yes, I get fabulous color in boro beads, but not so much in anything larger, and I think tanked would solve my problem. If only someone would deliver the tanks......is the real problem.

Rose · #22 2013-06-25, 9:45am

Cathy, I'm working small as in pendants. I've watched the video many times and each time I take something new away.

Kikosun, the DVD is worth the money. Really worth it. If you go to the garage sale here you may find someone willing to sell you theirs.

I am referring to Boro Hearts Vol. 2

PennyLane · #23 2013-06-26, 9:46am

Thanks Rose for your help. I have Vol. 1 & 2. Time to pay more attention to details.

chummsdoe · #24 2013-06-26, 4:00pm

I quickly read though and didn't notice anything about the brand of clear being used. If your not already I'd strongly suggest simax. It is the easiest way to make your work look better if using silver based colors.

If the brand of clear has already been mentioned I apologize.

Best of luck!

Rose · #25 2013-06-26, 5:25pm

Good point about the Simax. Yes, I'm using that these days.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful, as I don't think others were here with my posts, either. Although I did think a few posts were a bit snarky at the time. Not so much now. In reality, for me only, I'm the only one who can see what I am doing, what I can change, even when I think there is nothing i can change.My point was that Brent gives more information in one place about working silver colors than anyplace else I know. I kind of forgot how to work boro over the last year and I actually gave up last year when I got my 2nd M-20. I thought with 2 of them and my Scorpion I would be rocking boro. In reality, 2 of them changed everything and when I couldn't figure it out I gave up boro for soft glass. Now i'm back to boro and am forcing myself to see what I can figure out.

Work it HOT, don't bob in and out ofthe flame, etc. One of my issues has been and still is, how hot to work, when to work hot, how much is lot's of oxygen, when I can back off. I found thin layers of ap on a pendant I pressed got too thin for the color to show. It's all so personal on what we are trying to do, what our setup is, how we perceive what people tell us to do and actually learning the glass. For that reason it becomes a personal journey of sorts for those of us that don't know people locally to help us or if we don't take classes.

I'm still not very far from where I was the other day when I asked all these questions. But I'm spending hours every day experimenting, waiting for results, watching the DVD again, experimenting again, and so on. I found what everyone told me was true, but applying it to MY situation will be totally different than yours. I'm happy to help someone if I can but I also see how hard it is for others to help me. Boro is a beast. Maybe I'm making it harder than it is, that I still have to figure out.

PennyLane · #26 2013-06-27, 7:52am

No intention of derailing this thread, but speaking of boro, did anyone else see Glass Alchemy's Newsletter mentioning another boro/soft coe, I think it was 51 coe? Got me to thinking how it would play-out on the torch.

KJohn · #27 2013-06-27, 8:43am

That would be interesting. Perhaps it is easier than boro on a smaller torch.

Every time I think I would like to try boro, I come across a post like yours, Rose, where the mysteries seem profound. That is part of the glass journey of which we speak, so I supposed we should accept that. I think you put it so well. Glad you are getting on.

LarryC · #28 2013-06-27, 12:50pm

best post i have seen here on learning to work this material since i first logged in years ago. Every setup and situation is unique and requires many hours behind the torch in development. It can never all come from a class or book. Bravo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

Good point about the Simax. Yes, I'm using that these days.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful, as I don't think others were here with my posts, either. Although I did think a few posts were a bit snarky at the time. Not so much now. In reality, for me only, I'm the only one who can see what I am doing, what I can change, even when I think there is nothing i can change.My point was that Brent gives more information in one place about working silver colors than anyplace else I know. I kind of forgot how to work boro over the last year and I actually gave up last year when I got my 2nd M-20. I thought with 2 of them and my Scorpion I would be rocking boro. In reality, 2 of them changed everything and when I couldn't figure it out I gave up boro for soft glass. Now i'm back to boro and am forcing myself to see what I can figure out.

Work it HOT, don't bob in and out ofthe flame, etc. One of my issues has been and still is, how hot to work, when to work hot, how much is lot's of oxygen, when I can back off. I found thin layers of ap on a pendant I pressed got too thin for the color to show. It's all so personal on what we are trying to do, what our setup is, how we perceive what people tell us to do and actually learning the glass. For that reason it becomes a personal journey of sorts for those of us that don't know people locally to help us or if we don't take classes.

I'm still not very far from where I was the other day when I asked all these questions. But I'm spending hours every day experimenting, waiting for results, watching the DVD again, experimenting again, and so on. I found what everyone told me was true, but applying it to MY situation will be totally different than yours. I'm happy to help someone if I can but I also see how hard it is for others to help me. Boro is a beast. Maybe I'm making it harder than it is, that I still have to figure out.

Mary K · #29 2013-06-27, 9:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PennyLane

No intention of derailing this thread, but speaking of boro, did anyone else see Glass Alchemy's Newsletter mentioning another boro/soft coe, I think it was 51 coe? Got me to thinking how it would play-out on the torch.

I got the newsletter ~ this is glass for a hot shop type of operation, with glass melting in a pot, not glass by the rod. It will come in powder form.

PennyLane · #30 2013-06-28, 12:00pm

Thanks Mary K, read it too fast, and was thinking only about rods. Appreciate your clarification.