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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2010-04-22, 5:36am
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Default Accidently left kiln door open

I accidently left the kiln door open the entire time. I thought I was going to go back out there but I ended up not being able to and I must have forgotten about the door. It ramped down and everything. Are they annealed? If not, can I ramp em back up and anneal them? Oh how I would hate to loose them. That was my first vessel in there.
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  #2  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:02am
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I'm not an expert on this but it would be my guess that you have to start all over again. If you choose to do so you will have to ramp up slowly to avoid thermal shock
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  #3  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:08am
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no they are not annealed. heat the kiln slowly to annealing temperature and then run a normal cycle. i would ramp up at no more than 200 degrees/hour.
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  #4  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:10am
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Thanks guys!!
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Old 2010-04-22, 6:10am
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Why would they not be annealed if proper temps were reached and held? Not being snarky, actually just curious as to the science behind this.

Thanks!
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  #6  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:18am
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That's what I wondered too but I would think because of drafts?
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Old 2010-04-22, 6:25am
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If the kiln went through its usual ramp down schedule, as opposed to just turning off, then I think they should be annealed. The kiln will perform the same tasks its programmed to perform whether the door is open or not. The only exception to that might be if the lid was left off, and I'm not sure how much that would matter, except the anneal cycle would probably still be running and your electric bill will be really high, lol.
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  #8  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:30am
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Were you batch annealing or garaging when this happened?

There is no down side to running the beads through another batch annealing cycle and then you will be sure they are annealedd.
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  #9  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:31am
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do you have your kiln programmed to ramp down in increments or does it cool so slowly normally with the door closed? If it's the later of the two I would say not annealed, but if you have it programmed it would have had the constant temperature and should be annealed. However you can never be too safe.
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  #10  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:35am
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annealing is done by following a cool down trajectory, not simply by reaching annealing temperature. you need to cool your glass down at a slow rate from the annealing temperature (~950F) down to the strain point temperature (~850 F). this rate depends upon the size of the glass. in the table below, the thickness of the glass is in column A if you cool it off too fast, by leaving the lid open, the beads will not be annealed. all times in the table below can be increased without issue, but they cannot be reduced!!!!
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  #11  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:37am
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I was garaging with the door open, at 960. I keep it like that until I'm done usually, then hold for a half an hour or an hour depending on the size of the beads, then it ramps down 100 degrees an hour to 500 then turns off and cools to room temp, which it never gets below 90-100 at the lowest. It did all this with the bead door open. I usually shut the door when I'm done.
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  #12  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:38am
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Right, it did its normal ramp down, just with the door open

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserglass View Post
annealing is done by following a cool down trajectory, not simply by reaching annealing temperature. you need to cool your glass down at a slow rate from the annealing temperature ( 950F) down to the strain point temperature (750 F). this rate depends upon the size of the glass. in the table below, the thickness of the glass is in column A if you cool it off too fast, by leaving the lid open, the beads will not be annealed,
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  #13  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redayh View Post
Why would they not be annealed if proper temps were reached and held? Not being snarky, actually just curious as to the science behind this.

Thanks!
If door is open, I seriously double you can reach and maintain proper temperatures in annealing process....

Temperatures rely on a stable heat in chamber, with door open, heat is escaping out top of door frame and convection is drawing cool air from lower section....

Also its very inefficient to keep door open during working on beads and garaging process... It all goes back to the "closed" chamber environment...

Its sort of like opening all the doors and windows in your house on a cold winters day then turning up the heat to compensate, I double furnace can keep up with the cold from outside....

Dale
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  #14  
Old 2010-04-22, 6:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
If door is open, I seriously double you can reach and maintain proper temperatures in annealing process....

Temperatures rely on a stable heat in chamber, with door open, heat is escaping out top of door frame and convection is drawing cool air from lower section....

Also its very inefficient to keep door open during working on beads and garaging process... It all goes back to the "closed" chamber environment...

Its sort of like opening all the doors and windows in your house on a cold winters day then turning up the heat to compensate, I double furnace can keep up with the cold from outside....

Dale
Oh wait, so I should open and close the door as I finish each bead? This may sound like an idiotic question, but 1) the handle gets super hot and burn myself each time and 2) this could be the reason why I had a bad batch of beads I thought was a specific glass, could my annealing not be actual annealing if I garage with my bead door open?

Thank you guys so much for responding. When it comes to annealing, I go by what I'm told to do because I don't understand the whole process as much as I try to. And hearing from you guys makes a real difference because I know you guys are pros.
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  #15  
Old 2010-04-22, 7:10am
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if the thermocouple is located near the door, they may be anealed. The kiln operates based on the temp at the thermocouple. If it is located at back, the bead by the door are not likely to be properly anealed, but the ones near the thermocouple could be.

However, better safe than sorry...run the cycle again.
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  #16  
Old 2010-04-22, 7:13am
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If you try and cook a cake with your oven door open or cracked, how will it come out?

I'd close the kiln door for garaging.
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Old 2010-04-22, 7:20am
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I like that analogy .
I have accidentally baked a cake first with the oven on broil and than on bake .
It didn't rise and get light and fluffy but it still tasted good just more like a pound cake.
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  #18  
Old 2010-04-22, 7:29am
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The thermo doo hickey is on the side of the kiln, not front or back, and the kiln rack is right next to it, but since I'm not sure, and I want to be sure, I guess I'll just ramp it back up slowly and anneal them the right way to be sure.

As for the future, I can garage with the door shut and open it each time to add a bead, however, that handle is burning hot and I would think the up and down of the temp due to opening and closing would be more inaccurate than to garage open and it keep it at a constant temp that it needs, no? I mean wouldnt the heat escape each time I open the door to add the bead and then drop the temp?
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Old 2010-04-22, 7:32am
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I would think the kiln would compensate for the outside cool air. I have opened my kiln door and then closed it and as a result of this, watched the temp go up to 970 because it was compensating for the coolness of the air coming in from the outside. If it is programmed to be at a certain temp, it wants to be that temp, I would think.
But yeah, I get what people are saying about the part of the bead closest to the door. Such a bummer this happened!
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Old 2010-04-22, 7:33am
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With the kiln door open and your program shuts off at 500F, it's ramping down too fast from 500F to room temperature. Non brick lined kilns need to be programmed for controlled ramping down all the way down to about 200 for the fiber lining doesn't keep the temperature for a slow ramp down on its own. Same principle applies here.
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  #21  
Old 2010-04-22, 7:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
With the kiln door open and your program shuts off at 500F, it's ramping down too fast from 500F to room temperature. Non brick lined kilns need to be programmed for controlled ramping down all the way down to about 200 for the fiber lining doesn't keep the temperature for a slow ramp down on its own. Same principle applies here.
It is programmed this way from the manufacturer and it states specifically for moretti this is fine. I think they know how they manufactured their kiln to cool down at the appropriate rate to room temp. It is a brick kiln so I don't think this applies to me.
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Old 2010-04-22, 7:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
With the kiln door open and your program shuts off at 500F, it's ramping down too fast from 500F to room temperature. Non brick lined kilns need to be programmed for controlled ramping down all the way down to about 200 for the fiber lining doesn't keep the temperature for a slow ramp down on its own. Same principle applies here.
Unless u are talking about just this one instance of me accidentily leaving the door opened. If that is the case and it did, in fact, go down too quickly to room temp from 500, would they already have stress fractures? I mean, wouldnt this accident be the same as if I were to put it in a fiber blanket?
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Old 2010-04-22, 7:53am
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I was referring to just this one instance with the door left open, Karen. I'd batch anneal the entire kiln load just to be sure especially if you plan to sell some of these beads.
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Old 2010-04-22, 7:55am
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Garaging your beads with the door open is a bad idea for two reasons: one, your garaged beads are getting a constant draft from the front of the kiln, and two, your electric use will be ridiculously higher than garaging with the door closed. It's like running your freezer with the door open.

What kind of annealer is it? If it has thin handles like a Chili Pepper, a couple of cheap ceramic cabinet knobs from Home Depot can be glued on using silicone glue.
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Old 2010-04-22, 8:00am
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I didn't really notice a difference in my electric bill, but thats neither here nor there. I'm really more concerned about my beads. I'm wondering now, about ALL of them that I've made up until this point. I wonder if they all have stress fractures that I can't see. And if there are stress fractures, batch annealing them won't help, I'd have to trash them all, won't I? And its a Jen Ken Kiln, no place to put knobs.. ill break out the pot holders, lol.
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Old 2010-04-22, 8:20am
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The ones that survive the annealing process are fine, just like beads cooled in a fiber blanket and batch annealed. Leaving the door open during garaging just means they're at greater risk for cracking before you close the door... same reason they tell you not to "peek" at beads during annealing. I would just re-anneal the ones from the last batch and not worry about it.
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Old 2010-04-22, 9:01am
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I' think that I would just go ahead and put them through an annealing cycle so I wouldn't have to worry about them.
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Old 2010-04-22, 9:31am
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Yeah I would agree the previous beads that were annealed are most likely okay. I would re-anneal the recent batch as others stated.

As far as garaging with the door open, I think it magnifies the chance of stress cracking enormously. The thermocouple and set point controller are designed to function in a closed environment. The thermocouple takes a localized reading and it guesstimates the surrounding temperatures based on the door being closed. By running it with the door open, you are making your kiln work too hard, confusing it and reducing its accuracy. I would suggest getting some good potholders and closing the door between beads! It will almost certainly reduce your electric bill as an added bonus.

good luck,

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  #29  
Old 2010-04-22, 9:52am
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Just batch anneal them again and get yourself a piece of stainless steel and make a handle out of it, it wont get hot, its what I put on all my kilns and I don't understand why people would put a piece of metal on a kiln door that gets hot for a handle.

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Old 2010-04-22, 9:53am
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What Jo said. The annealer is made to run with the door closed; leaving the door open makes it run constantly trying to maintain a consistent temperature - not what the machine was made to do. The analogies of oven & freezer doors left open make the point very well. You're losing so much energy, the machine has to work way too hard, & the desired outcome (annealing, cooking, freezing) is going to be less than optimal. Better solution is to find something convenient to use to open the kiln door.
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