Oxygen Analyzer Results

[oxydoc]

Hey, I have a sugestion. I will send one of my machines and Kimberly can send one of hers, to someone (a volunteer) to test them and post the results. Anyone else who sells units can also participate. OGSI ON Site you name it. We will post all results. End this bullshit bickering!!!!!! jack

[Alex9]

Well put Jack, I couldn't agree more!

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by oxydoc

Hey, I have a sugestion. I will send one of my machines and Kimberly can send one of hers, to someone (a volunteer) to test them and post the results. Anyone else who sells units can also participate. OGSI ON Site you name it. We will post all results. End this bullshit bickering!!!!!! jack

Jack - that's a great idea . . . from a purity testing stand point.

But to really tell the whole story . . . and help us lampworkers make the decision of which machine(s) to purchase . . . I believe that we need to test ONE Regalia versus TWO M-15s Y-ed together.

When we purchase something, we usually start with how much money we want to spend. It just didn't make sense to get a 10 lpm / 9 psi machine for the same price as two machines that will give me 14-15 lpm / 15 psi, especially if the test shows that the purity is the same when the machines are all set at 10 lpm.

Or am I just crazy?

[Mr. Smiley]

The purity of the M-15s will be fine set at 15 LPM combined... no need to turn them back to 10.

[Dennis Brady]

Originally Posted by Hayley

Jack - that's a great idea . . . from a purity testing stand point.

But to really tell the whole story . . . and help us lampworkers make the decision of which machine(s) to purchase . . . I believe that we need to test ONE Regalia versus TWO M-15s Y-ed together.

When we purchase something, we usually start with how much money we want to spend. It just didn't make sense to get a 10 lpm / 9 psi machine for the same price as two machines that will give me 14-15 lpm / 15 psi, especially if the test shows that the purity is the same when the machines are all set at 10 lpm.

Or am I just crazy?

You're not crazy, you're perfectly pragmatic. Considering that a single Regalia costs more then two M15's, a valid comparison would be the capacity of a single Regalia against twined M15's. The only truly important measurement is how much capacity is available for how many dollars. If you're prepared to put out $1500, which would provide the most capacity - a single Regalia or two M15's in tandem?

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

The purity of the M-15s will be fine set at 15 LPM combined... no need to turn them back to 10.

I expect that . . . but want to make them as "equal" as possible . . . since we can't change the pressure, I suggest setting at least the flow the same. . .

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by Dennis Brady

You're not crazy, you're perfectly pragmatic. Considering that a single Regalia costs more then two M15's, a valid comparison would be the capacity of a single Regalia against twined M15's. The only truly important measurement is how much capacity is available for how many dollars. If you're prepared to put out $1500, which would provide the most capacity - a single Regalia or two M15's in tandem?

That's what I thought! There was a thread earlier where someone asked about Regalia vs Two M-15s for his/her Cheetah. If memory serves, I think that Kimberly recommended the Regalia OVER the Two M-15s, saying that the Regalia will power the Cheetah at 60-65%! Huh? Am I missing something here???

I am NOT speaking for everyone here . . . just for me . . . sometimes she throws around so much technical jargons and data that I have a hard time keeping up . . . but I did catch the 65% recommendation . . . she is advising that person to spend $1600 on a Regalia that will power his/her torch 65% over two M-15s!?!

So with this unbiased testing by an impartial third party that Jack is recommending, perhaps we can put this question to rest!

[Hels]

Wow... I am not entering the fray... but I have a lot of respect for everyone who's in this argument, and it's just hard to see these good people fighting like this, so I'm just adding my 2 cents for both sides to consider.

First, I want to mention that I bought a M15 unit a few months ago.
I used it for a month before I realized there was a problem. I was unable to properly strike silver colors, and I couldn't figure out why. It worked FINE on all other glass except boro silvers. I finally tested by using the GA neutral flame test, and it was in fact my oxygen purity level. That is, my unit was blowing, but it wasn't a very high purity of oxygen.

I was really upset. I ended up calling Jack, who said he'd send me another unit. I don't know if I got a defective unit, or it was my user error. No one told me NOT to turn it off and on again every time I got up to go to the bathroom or get a drink, so I did. No one told me NOT to use it in humidity or it might damage the sieve beds, so I did... in 100% Florida humidity. So maybe I damaged it myself, maybe it came that way, I don't know.

I do know that Jack made it right, although it took a while (but no longer than if I shipped anything back to a manufacturer for any kind of repair).
I'm sitting here with 2 of his units right now, and I only paid for 1 of them (broken one is going back tomorrow in the same box).

That is way over and above customer service in my book. I don't know if he does this for every customer, or only whiney ones like me, but the fact that he did it both surprised and gratified me.

On the other hand, I very much appreciate Kimberly posting numbers. I think it's important that people know, and have a basis to make a decision from. I have the utmost respect for GTT torches, my biased opinion is that they are the best in the whole world, based on the limited torch experience I have personally had.

It's also obvious that Kimberly has access to torches to test with, and also that she is in a great position to be able to choose the best oxycon for her torches. No one could be in a better position than Kimberly to choose oxycons actually. Of course she's going to pick the best she can find to sell. I don't think anyone would argue that point.

Brent is one of the most generous and kind-hearted, tell it like it is kind of guys you will ever meet. If he sells these units, it's because he believes in them, uses them himself, and feels confident that they perform as expected.

Brent clearly doesn't have silver color issues... he's acknowledged all over to be one of the best glassworkers at getting insane colors out of his silvers... something that can't be done with poor oxygen purity levels. I've seen a lot of it in person, and I can vouch for the fact that Brent is getting very high oxygen purity.

3 amazing people. If I had to pick one to 'trust', I wouldn't know how to do it. So I'd trust all 3.

How about this to consider?

Jack sells REFURBISHED units. He buys used machines, and rebuilds them, then resells them cheaper. At no point does he claim they are new, or as good as new. That's why you pay $700 for a M15, and not $1550. No one will sell you a brand new Regalia, the better machine, for $700.

I think the fairer comparison is between new car and used car.

Kimberly sells THE BEST new car in its class. The Regalia is the oxycon equivalent of a Mercedes-Benz. It works, it works well, it rarely has problems, it is reliable, and it is thoroughly tested. It is also expensive.

Jack remanufactures, and Brent and others sell, a highly warranteed used car. When you buy a used car, you run the risk of getting a lemon, or break downs, or problems. You know this up front, and you accept it...BUT it has a 3 year warranty in case it does. If it breaks, you are inconvenienced. But that's the price you pay to buy something for less than 1/2 the cost of new.

It's a gamble, and anyone who buys used anything takes that same gamble, they just don't often get the warranty with the gamble.

My old M15 worked just fine on soft glass, boro, and even 1.5" marbles, I was using it still yesterday. The purity level only mattered when I did silvered glass... not something I worked with every day, but something that was very important to me. So yes, the purity mattered to me... a LOT. However, it may not even be noticeable to as many as 90% of beaders... who don't work silvered boro.

Many people are moving up from hothead. What's a hothead's oxygen purity level? Even if it's 50% propane and 50% air... that would be AT BEST a 10% oxygen content (because air is only 20% oxygen). Yet many people make beads on a hothead. Clearly, oxygen purity doesn't matter except with certain types of glass.

I like to see Kimberly's analysis and numbers. I think they are very valuable to everyone in the glass community, and I think everyone should be grateful to her for providing them. I am.

But there is a market for all the systems for sale out there, and the bottom line is, while oxygen purity is important to some people, it's not important to everyone.

There's no reason for good people to get mad at each other over it, and you guys are among the best.

[kbinkster]

Since when did this become a p'ing match between the Regalia and the M-15?

You're losing sight of what I'm trying to accomplish: a compilation of data on the machines being used in the lampworking industry. I'm trying to help our community know what's out there and how it performs. Anyone can pull up specs, but I want to know how the machines are really performing out there and how different conditions affect that performance. Simple. This is not some campaign against UO. I commented about the bad experiences I had with their machines, but I openly admitted that there are lots of other people happy with their machines. You don't see me arguing with anyone telling them that "No, your machine doesn't work!"

What are you guys so worried about? You're starting to look ridiculous and desperate. And it looks like you're trying to get me down by using the old "death by 1000 slashes" routine. It looks like you are trying to bog me down with all sorts of stuff.

I am starting a project to help the lampworking community, plain and simple. I kicked it off by sampling the machines I have here with me. You can take it or leave it.

Hey, if anyone else is in the Denver area and would like me to come test your machine (save on the shipping cost and not have to pay the deposit of renting my analyzer), just let me know.


Edit: Hels, I did not see your post before posting mine. You are a very kind person and I appreciate what you said.

[oxydoc]

WoW Hels, that was a perfectly stated analegy. I have not read a better statement regarding this thread, ever. jack

[GLASSFREEK]

Wow came back to check on this thread and it just gave me a huge headache.
Mike

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

Since when did this become a p'ing match between the Regalia and the M-15?

You're losing sight of what I'm trying to accomplish: a compilation of data on the machines being used in the lampworking industry. I'm trying to help our community know what's out there and how it performs. Anyone can pull up specs, but I want to know how the machines are really performing out there and how different conditions affect that performance. Simple. This is not some campaign against UO. I commented about the bad experiences I had with their machines, but I openly admitted that there are lots of other people happy with their machines. You don't see me arguing with anyone telling them that "No, your machine doesn't work!"

What are you guys so worried about? You're starting to look ridiculous and desperate. And it looks like you're trying to get me down by using the old "death by 1000 slashes" routine. It looks like you are trying to bog me down with all sorts of stuff.

I am starting a project to help the lampworking community, plain and simple. I kicked it off by sampling the machines I have here with me. You can take it or leave it.

I don't think anyone is losing sight of what you are trying to accomplish here . . . and Jack's post to have an impartial third party to do the testing with machines provided by all the manufacturers who want to participate is an excellent suggestion.

It was my suggestion to test two M15s against one Regalia . . . and suggest that the other manufacturers who participate will also bench mark their machines equivalent to monetary value of two M15s and one Regalia. To best serve the lampworking community, that's how the testing should be done and the data should be shown, IMHO.

Set those machines of equal monetary value to where they will output 94% purity, take down what PSI and LPM each brand is at - now you are comparing apple to apple.

Why do you have a problem with that? As you put it earlier . . . it's our hard earned money . . .$1500+ is a lot of money! When I buy something, I ask myself . . . is A worth twice the amount of B? To me, the Regalia, at $1550 HAS TO BE twice the machine as ONE M-15 at half its cost . . . if they both test out to have the same purity level. Even then, the M15's pressure is 15 psi which is more than the Regalia.. . so the Regalia needs to be MORE than twice the machine . . .

Incidentally, have you tested the other machines you sell . . . the DeVilbiss MC?

[tiggybubba]

Ok, I may regret posting in this thread but here it goes.....

All I want to know is this. At sea level, non excessive humidity, what do I need to run a GTT Lynx at 100%. Raging, full on 100%.

Anyone?

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

You're starting to look ridiculous and desperate. And it looks like you're trying to get me down by using the old "death by 1000 slashes" routine. It looks like you are trying to bog me down with all sorts of stuff.

And please don't tell me that I am starting to look ridiculous and desperate . . . I have NOT attacked you personally in any way and do not appreciate your comment. I am a customer of yours as much as a customer of UO.

[kbinkster]

Originally Posted by Hayley

I don't think anyone is losing sight of what you are trying to accomplish here . . . and Jack's post to have an impartial third party to do the testing with machines provided by all the manufacturers who want to participate is an excellent suggestion.

No, it's not an excellent suggestion, at all. If I wanted the results that that sort of testing would provide (cherry picked new or freshly modified units tested right out of the box), then I might as well rely soley on the manufacturer's specs. Such a test would also limit the number of machines being sampled. That does nothing to address the question of what is going on with the machines out in the field under different conditions.

There's nothing wrong with what I plan to do. I plan to gather as much data as possible. The results can be sorted, categorized, interpreted, and whatever else, later.

It was my suggestion to test two M15s against one Regalia . . . and suggest that the other manufacturers who participate will also bench mark their machines equivalent to monetary value of two M15s and one Regalia. To best serve the lampworking community, that's how the testing should be done and the data should be shown, IMHO.

Set those machines of equal monetary value to where they will output 94% purity, take down what PSI and LPM each brand is at - now you are comparing apple to apple.

You can compare whatever you want to. That's your project. I have already stated mine.

Why do you have a problem with that? As you put it earlier . . . it's our hard earned money . . .$1500+ is a lot of money! When I buy something, I ask myself . . . is A worth twice the amount of B? To me, the Regalia, at $1550 HAS TO BE twice the machine as ONE M-15 at half its cost . . . if they both test out to have the same purity level. Even then, the M15's pressure is 15 psi which is more than the Regalia.. . so the Regalia needs to be MORE than twice the machine . . .

Incidentally, have you tested the other machines you sell . . . the DeVilbiss MC?

I do not have a problem.

I do not have a DeVilbiss MC here to test. I will probably send my analyzer over to Wally and have him test his two units and I am sure that you would test your DeVilbiss with the analyzer, as well.

And please don't tell me that I am starting to look ridiculous and desperate . . . I have NOT attacked you personally in any way and do not appreciate your comment. I am a customer of yours as much as a customer of UO.

Who said that I was directing that at you? I think you will find that every response I have made to you has been respectful and patient.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

No, it's not an excellent suggestion, at all. If I wanted the results that that sort of testing would provide (cherry picked new or freshly modified units tested right out of the box), then I might as well rely soley on the manufacturer's specs. Such a test would also limit the number of machines being sampled. That does nothing to address the question of what is going on with the machines out in the field under different conditions.

Guess that's your prerogative . . . just as it was your prerogative to test the M-20 that you knew was not performing properly.

Originally Posted by kbinkster

There's nothing wrong with what I plan to do. I plan to gather as much data as possible. The results can be sorted, categorized, interpreted, and whatever else, later.

I will be happy to submit my test results of my units "out in the field."

Originally Posted by kbinkster

You can compare whatever you want to. That's your project. I have already stated mine.

Guess you are not interested in any suggestion as to how your testing may better serve the lampworking community.

Originally Posted by kbinkster

I do not have a problem.

I do not have a DeVilbiss MC here to test. I will probably send my analyzer over to Wally and have him test his two units and I am sure that you would test your DeVilbiss with the analyzer, as well.

I will surely test the DeVilbiss in addition to the M15s (by itself as well as y-ed together).

Originally Posted by kbinkster

Who said that I was directing that at you? I think you will find that every response I have made to you has been respectful and patient.

Hmmmmm I apologize if I misunderstood you - but since I was the one who suggested testing two M-15s against one Regalia and that only myself, Brent, Brady, Jack, Alex (not counting Hels so you addressed her seperately) commented between your previous post and your "ridiculous and desperate" post, I assumed that it was directed at me as well. . . you know what they say about "assume!"

Good to know that we are on the same page then, for every post I have made to you has also been respectful and patient.

[tiggybubba]

Bueler?

[SadiesJewels]

Ok ... I used to run an Invacare on a Minor ... not satisfied at all as I moved into larger beads - plus the O2 purity was definitely an issue. I gave up using rubino! I went back to my tanks ... they work perfectly now thank you! I have also upgraded my torch to a Phantom and can't see using anything other than my tanks for the purity and psi.

I think it would be good to have accurate information available to assess what works - the previous chart of uo/ou I saw was not accurate from my point of view - although they were very pleasant to deal with.

Sadie

ps. let's see a dollar for dollar comparison (although space is also an issue) - one compressor compared to another ... two to one etc ...

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by tiggybubba

Ok, I may regret posting in this thread but here it goes.....

All I want to know is this. At sea level, non excessive humidity, what do I need to run a GTT Lynx at 100%. Raging, full on 100%.

Anyone?

Sorry Leslie . . .guess too much discussion and they all missed your question.

Here is a thread that addressed that . . .
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29174

Of-course, at the time, I don't believe the M15s were available yet. So basically we are back to exactly what we have been discussing . . . the Regalia only powers the Lynx at 90% (according to Kimberly in post #4 of the old thread) . . . for less money, you can get TWO M15s that will MORE than power the Lynx at 100% (according to UO).

By looking this up for you, curiously in the same thread dated August 2006, Kimberly actually thought that Jack was really trying to make a difference in our industry but just not quite there yet even tho GTT had already gotten the machines that didn't work as they should . . .

Originally Posted by kbinkster

I must admit that I was suspicious of Jack and Paul when I first met them because of what went on with the three units they sent down for GTT to test and how the claims did not match the test results. But, after talking to them (a lot), I really got the sense that they were good guys. I think that Jack and Paul are really trying to make a difference in our industry. They continue to work at it, but they're just not quite there, IMHO. Their claims just don't jive with the actual performance I've seen, so far.

[tiggybubba]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Haley. I appreciate it.

[dan13]

I must say I really like the idea of the dollar to dollar comparison. I will admit I kinda took a gamble when buying my M-15. But I figured if it did not work for my needs i would just return it and save more money for a $1500 machine. I honestly did not care about what brand it was or who sold it to me. It was the best deal I could find so I bought it.
I for one hope that my 6 week old machine will stand the test of time. Seriously though I was spending around $200 on tanked O2 per month not to mention gas used in driving to the oxygen place and time spent to get there and back. so as far as im concerned if it lasts me a year than I am saving around 1800 a year after what I paid for it. That alone makes it worth it for me.
I am with Hayley in that I would love to see how 2 M-15 machines compare with the other machines that cost $1500.
Also I do not have any issues striking my silvered boro colors with my machine. I was worried about that before purchasing my machine but my colors are coming out just as nice as with tanked oxygen. Just my $.02

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by dan13

I must say I really like the idea of the dollar to dollar comparison. I will admit I kinda took a gamble when buying my M-15. But I figured if it did not work for my needs i would just return it and save more money for a $1500 machine. I honestly did not care about what brand it was or who sold it to me. It was the best deal I could find so I bought it.
I for one hope that my 6 week old machine will stand the test of time. Seriously though I was spending around $200 on tanked O2 per month not to mention gas used in driving to the oxygen place and time spent to get there and back. so as far as im concerned if it lasts me a year than I am saving around 1800 a year after what I paid for it. That alone makes it worth it for me.
I am with Hayley in that I would love to see how 2 M-15 machines compare with the other machines that cost $1500.
Also I do not have any issues striking my silvered boro colors with my machine. I was worried about that before purchasing my machine but my colors are coming out just as nice as with tanked oxygen. Just my $.02

I saw your boro beads on eBay and they are GORGEOUS! Doesn't that mean that the purity of your M15 has to be pretty top notched for the silvered boro colors to strike (sorry I only played with boro a few times!)? What kind of torch do you use?

[dan13]

One more thing for tiggybubba-- I would not say that the M-15 can fully 100% rage the lynx but I would say around 90%. I have no issues with it for boro beads and small pipes. I think for that extra 10% a second M-15 would fill the gap. I will probably end up getting a second later on but I wnt to see how the first m-15 holds up over time before buying another. So far so good. If you want me to I will email you pics of my largest flame capable with my m-15. Or i can post them here if anyone wants.

[kbinkster]

The Lynx consumes 14 CFH oxygen and maxes out between 12-15 psi.

It's funny you would find that statement, Hayley, because that is part of what I've been saying all along. I have never been on a mission to attack Jack or UO. I held a hopeful outlook that maybe someday they would come up with something good. The last sentence of my statement there still holds true, though, IRT units that I have run and seen run, including the unit run at the KC Gathering open torch. That's not to say there aren't machines out there that perform to what they claim. But, I can tell you for certain that Tornado should have run the Lynx full out, but it didn't. In fact, it did not do better than the Regalia. That thread explains it.

I wish that I had then what I have now - a tool to measure what these machines are doing... not just right out of the box, but out in the field, months and years out from "brand new."

[dan13]

THanks very much Hayley I would think that the purity would need to be pretty high to get them to strike. i strike everything in the flame before they go into the kiln. I just checked out your beads too and I think they are beautiful as well. I have actually been thinking about switching to 104 just for a change of pace which is why I have been lurking more lately.

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by kbinkster

It's funny you would find that statement, Hayley, because that is part of what I've been saying all along. I have never been on a mission to attack Jack or UO. I held a hopeful outlook that maybe someday they would come up with something good. The last sentence of my statement there still holds true, though, IRT units that I have run and seen run, including the unit run at the KC Gathering open torch. That's not to say there aren't machines out there that perform to what they claim. But, I can tell you for certain that Tornado should have run the Lynx full out, but it didn't. In fact, it did not do better than the Regalia. That thread explains it.

I think that's what a few of us have been trying to tell you in this thread . . . that Jack and UO have come a long way since two years ago when your husband received those M-20s that didn't live up to specs. . . therefore it's only fair to test the more current machines like the M-15s.

And more people from the community have chimed in and agree that comparing all the machine and machine(s) in the $1500 price range would be awesome for us to really have a good basis to make our purchasing decision!

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by dan13

THanks very much Hayley I would think that the purity would need to be pretty high to get them to strike. i strike everything in the flame before they go into the kiln. I just checked out your beads too and I think they are beautiful as well. I have actually been thinking about switching to 104 just for a change of pace which is why I have been lurking more lately.

Thank you, Dan! I wish I had enough time in the day to play with all COEs . . . the full-time job gets in the way!

I work with a lot of COE 104 silver glass (and test for Double Helix).A lot of times with the reducing silver glass, in order to bring out the best and most interesting colors, I need to alternate between reducing and oxydizing . . . so I am with you that the purity of my oxycons have to be pretty high as well. And I love my M-15s with my 'Cuda!

[Mr. Smiley]

Since you are only interested in being fair Kimberly, let us know how the Regalia you have there performs during it's 5 week non-stop test you have come up with.

If at any time you are willing to send out your testing equipment at no cost, I'd be more than willing to test my M-20s. They've been run hard for several years... in a very humid, dirty environment. It would be a good bit of data to ad to the project, but I'm not willing to pay to add my data. Especially since it's "your" project and "our" suggestions on comparisons don't matter.

[Mr. Smiley]

Got an answer about what flow GTTs need to operate at 100% yet? This is vital data when folks are trying to choose the best system for their torch.

[Trey Cornette]

I would love to see this info as well. I have looked for it several times in the past couple of years. I have considered getting a GTT torch for a Boro station but the lack of info on consumption rates is discouraging. I know the are very efficient torches as far as the actual fuel burn ratio but how does their consumption rate compare to other torches? I have never been able to find a single GTT released document addressing this question.

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Got an answer about what flow GTTs need to operate at 100% yet? This is vital data when folks are trying to choose the best system for their torch.