Acetylene Torch for Lamworking ?

[Joeman]

Hello there,

I'm new to the Forum (this is my first post to the group...) and have a question about my existing equipment.

I currently have a OXY/ACE setup and I am currently using a J-100 torch handle (Light to Medium, Victor Style) along with regulators that are 2 stage and compatible with Propane, MAPP, Acetylene, etc... I was wondering if there are others who use their welding torch handle as a lampworking unit.

I would like to add a 30lb Propane tank and fit a proper nozzle on the end of my torch. Can anyone recommend the proper tip for the torch ? Would the tip be somewhat like a 'Rosebud' or perhaps there is a tip made especially for this kind of use.... ?

Any help is greatly appreciated,

Cheers,

/Joeman...

[Mr. Smiley]

I've used premix hand torches for boro. They aren't great for some colors and they will cook the snot out of soft glass, but they do have their uses. I have single orifice and rosebud tips of all sizes. Again, I'd only recommend them for boro and don't try to use acetylene. It's way too hot.

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

I've used premix hand torches for boro. They aren't great for some colors and they will cook the snot out of soft glass, but they do have their uses. I have single orifice and rosebud tips of all sizes. Again, I'd only recommend them for boro and don't try to use acetylene. It's way too hot.

Yes,

I would think that the Acetylene would be way too hot... I will merely substitute the propane for the acetylene....(hence the 30lb tank)

What I would like to know is if I can use my 'welding' torch and whether others have used theirs for 'beginner lampworking'.... I'm not looking to be a 'beadmaker' persea..., but I would like to implement some glass into some Glass slumping (small kiln) and ultimately into my welded Artwork.

Cheers,

/Joeman...

[squid]

Your kilnwork glass is likely soft glass, so the welding torch will be too hot for it. Boro can handle the heat, but soft glass can't.

[DesertDreamer]

Not to mention that acetylene, even with oxy, is a filthy dirty flame.

[menty666]

Here's an example where I'm pretty sure the artist is using a welding torch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WnHQz4x5m8

[MardiGrasGlass]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Not to mention that acetylene, even with oxy, is a filthy dirty flame.

I'm glad someone else asked this. I've inherited welding machines and cutting torches through a deceased father in law, and I was wondering the same thing. I've bought a second hand Hot Head however, so its no longer and issue.

However, your response interested me. Is propane really the only gas used in lampworking, and is it the cleanest? Does oxygen mixed in with the gas create a cleaner flame?

I remember watching my father use his cutting torch and remember the deep black stream of smoke that came from it when the flame wasn't in "cutting" mode.

[Dale M.]

Propane or natural gas are the cleanest fuels when used with a fuel/oxygen torch...

Dale

[Heidi von Frozenfyre]

You should save your money for a proper torch and set up.

Acetylene is a crappy fuel for glass. You'll have nothing but sooty crud, and acetylene is actually cooler than oxy lp.

[menty666]

The cleanest flame would be hydrogen, but the up front costs are a little steep

There was a thread a ways back about folks using welding torches for doing glass, and there were folks saying that it is indeed possible. You just don't want to use acetylene to do it.

Better still though, get a proper glass torch. The Cricket's a nice place to start

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre

You should save your money for a proper torch and set up.

Acetylene is a crappy fuel for glass. You'll have nothing but sooty crud, and acetylene is actually cooler than oxy lp.

Yes, agreed....

That's why I don't plan on using OXY/ACE.... However you are wrong about the OXY/ACE being cooler than lp. OXY/ACE is the HOTTEST flame available at near 6400 degrees ! I can cut through 2" steel plate with my "Light Duty" torch and a proper setup can cut through 3 or more feet of solid steel.

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by squid

Your kilnwork glass is likely soft glass, so the welding torch will be too hot for it. Boro can handle the heat, but soft glass can't.

Hmmmm,

I always thought that most glass users used a fuel/oxy mix instead of just straight propane or MAPP ? Although most of my glass will likely be 96COE, I would have thought that Fuel (propane) and Oxygen would have been the way to go instead of using a Hot Head torch...or in my case, the welding torch with OXY/PROPANE.

/Joeman....

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Not to mention that acetylene, even with oxy, is a filthy dirty flame.

You likely read the post incorrecty,... I'm Not using Acetylene.

/Joeman...

[pam]

I will second what some have said here, if you are planning on using soft glass for your fusing projects, then buy a surface mix glass torch or opt for the Hot Head which runs on propane. The flame from your present torch will make you hate soft glass as it just doesn't react well with a welding torch. As someone else mentioned, the Cricket is an excellent torch and quite inexpensive compared to most glass torches. You probably won't need the 30 lb. propane tank. Generally the propane used is very small compared to the amount of oxy used. A regular barbeque 20 lb. tank will probably be more than sufficient for your needs. A Hot Head torch is generally around $50 while the Cricket is around $140.

[shawnette]

The guys at work use Victor torches and I'm pretty sure one of the tips is a #1, if that helps. You can get special tips, but the standard ones work fine for boro, as long as you get the right size.

Edited to add: Though you can use your torch to work 96 (I've done it in a pinch), I wouldn't recommend it, especially if you're a beginner. Premix torches can do nasty things to the pretty colors.

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by menty666

Here's an example where I'm pretty sure the artist is using a welding torch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WnHQz4x5m8

YES !

That is indeed a WELDING torch (albeit,...a large one) and of the longer tip type..... Definitely a reducing flame but that flame doesn't look like OXY/ACE to me. Likely OXY/PROPANE.

BTW,
That was an AMAZING video.... I guess it can easily be done with a Torch eh ?

Cheers,

/Joeman...

[Mr. Smiley]

In the video, they are using a premix welding torch... and he is working with clear boro.

[pam]

Boro is what makes the difference. You can work clear boro, 33 coe, on almost any torch, but any torch that produces a reducing flame is not good for soft glass. The Hot Head, although it is using only propane or MAPP gas has been built specifically for use with glass, and is constructed so that more air is incorporated into the flame, thus once you are good at using it you can produce true colors with that torch. My own preference, since having been where you are many years ago, is the Hot Head torch is a big step up from a welding torch. The surface mix oxy/propane torches are a huge step up from the Hot Head. However, having said that, many artists use a Hot Head torch and produce really fantastic beads.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Joeman

Hmmmm,

I always thought that most glass users used a fuel/oxy mix instead of just straight propane or MAPP ? Although most of my glass will likely be 96COE, I would have thought that Fuel (propane) and Oxygen would have been the way to go instead of using a Hot Head torch...or in my case, the welding torch with OXY/PROPANE.

/Joeman....

I am not saying you wouldn't want to use an propane/oxy setup, just that there are different types of propane/oxy torches - surface mix and premix (and others for all I know - those are the two I know about). Premix torches in general are MUCH hotter than surface mix torches, which is why you can use them for boro but not soft glass. Boro can handle the heat - you will just scorch soft glass (96 glass is a soft glass). The welding torch you are talking about using is a premix and HOT.

[houptdavid]

I asked the same question years ago and never got a straight answer. So I broke down and bought a nortel major/minor.
Then found out that you can! WITH PROPANE!
I found a link to a "kid" who uses and old victor cutting torch and he makes some amazing stuff. He has it mounted facing straight up and down and facing away from him. It looks awkward the way he has it mounted (I'd mount it sideways with the nozzle at 45 degrees)
Granted it may not be as "techenically" accurate, may be to hot to begin with but it will work. Then for the "KILN" see the link for Marks mailbox annealer.

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by squid

I am not saying you wouldn't want to use an propane/oxy setup, just that there are different types of propane/oxy torches - surface mix and premix (and others for all I know - those are the two I know about). Premix torches in general are MUCH hotter than surface mix torches, which is why you can use them for boro but not soft glass. Boro can handle the heat - you will just scorch soft glass (96 glass is a soft glass). The welding torch you are talking about using is a premix and HOT.

Hmmm,

I think maybe you (or me) is confused about "pre-Mixed" torches but a "Victor Style Welding Torch" is 'definitely' NOT a pre-Mix type of torch. I use a 4 foot high Oxygen bottle with a 3.5 foot Acetylene bottle and both have dual stage regulators. The mix is done at the handle (complete with flash back arrestors) and can be adjusted to 'whatever' OXY / FUEL mix that is required for the job at hand, just like the Minor / Major units.

Mine however, will allow me to substiture the ACETYLENE for MAPP / NATURAL GAS / and PROPANE. This is not a pre-mix like one would buy at the hardware store...(I.E. the 1 or 2 lb bottles with threads..) Is my definition correct ?

Cheers,

/Joeman....

[Joeman]

I decided to buy the minor torch and just came back from picking it up. I bought a few tools, glass and other things and think I might have a good starting point..... Man, are those glasses EVER EXPENSIVE ! My welding glasses were like one eigth the cost of these suckers !

I believe the hoses are a different size (1/4" vs 1/2") than what I have currently, so I'm going to have to address that when I add the Propane tank to the mix.

So will a 20lb Propane tank be OK for a beginner with a Minor Torch ?
(I'll be using Uroboros 96 glass...)

Cheers,

/Joeman...

[pam]

If your Victor torch has separate tubes for oxy and propane that meet at the end of the torch, then it is a surface mix, since the oxy and propane do not mix inside the torch, but are brought to the face of the torch as separate products. If, on the other hand, you see no little tubes at the face of the torch, then the propane and oxy are fed into the torch at the base, where they comingle and reach the face of the torch as a mixture. If your Victor torch is indeed a surface mix torch, then you can use it for soft glass.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by Joeman

Hmmm,

I think maybe you (or me) is confused about "pre-Mixed" torches but a "Victor Style Welding Torch" is 'definitely' NOT a pre-Mix type of torch. I use a 4 foot high Oxygen bottle with a 3.5 foot Acetylene bottle and both have dual stage regulators. The mix is done at the handle (complete with flash back arrestors) and can be adjusted to 'whatever' OXY / FUEL mix that is required for the job at hand, just like the Minor / Major units.

Mine however, will allow me to substiture the ACETYLENE for MAPP / NATURAL GAS / and PROPANE. This is not a pre-mix like one would buy at the hardware store...(I.E. the 1 or 2 lb bottles with threads..) Is my definition correct ?

Cheers,

/Joeman....

That is a pre-mix. The fuel and oxygen are mixed inside the torch before coming out as flame. The center fire on my Carlisle CC is the same way. Personally, I love it. For fuming there is nothing better. The drawback is it's a lot hotter than a surface mix flame (where the gasses mix outside the torch at the face). However, it is not too hot for soft glass work as a lot claim. I use mine for soft glass work all the time. Shane Fero and Paul Stankard both work on a CC and work in soft glass.

As for using one, I know many people who will work with nothing but a $30 National pre-mix, and they love it. With the right sized tip you can do most anything with it. Milon Townsend uses one quite a bit for his sculptural work.

Originally Posted by Joeman

I decided to buy the minor torch and just came back from picking it up. I bought a few tools, glass and other things and think I might have a good starting point..... Man, are those glasses EVER EXPENSIVE ! My welding glasses were like one eigth the cost of these suckers !

I believe the hoses are a different size (1/4" vs 1/2") than what I have currently, so I'm going to have to address that when I add the Propane tank to the mix.

So will a 20lb Propane tank be OK for a beginner with a Minor Torch ?
(I'll be using Uroboros 96 glass...)

Cheers,

/Joeman...

Yeah, glasses are expensive. But, it's not like you can go out and buy yourself some new eyes when you wear the original ones out...

[Mr. Smiley]

Joeman, You are confused about the definition of "premix". This refers to the gases being mixed inside the torch handle before they exit the torch. Every welding torch I've ever heard of is premix. A surface mix torch is a torch that keeps the gas separate until they leave the torch. Little tubes keep the oxygen and fuel from mixing inside the body. They meet outside of the torch and mix on the "surface" of the face... the premix are rip roaring hotter, but that's not always a good thing with glass.

[Mr. Smiley]

A 20lb tank is plenty for anybody... I work full time and they last quite a while.

Cosmo... we were typing at the same time.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by Joeman

Hmmm,

I think maybe you (or me) is confused about "pre-Mixed" torches but a "Victor Style Welding Torch" is 'definitely' NOT a pre-Mix type of torch. I use a 4 foot high Oxygen bottle with a 3.5 foot Acetylene bottle and both have dual stage regulators. The mix is done at the handle (complete with flash back arrestors) and can be adjusted to 'whatever' OXY / FUEL mix that is required for the job at hand, just like the Minor / Major units.

Mine however, will allow me to substiture the ACETYLENE for MAPP / NATURAL GAS / and PROPANE. This is not a pre-mix like one would buy at the hardware store...(I.E. the 1 or 2 lb bottles with threads..) Is my definition correct ?

Cheers,

/Joeman....

I disagree with your statement "is 'definitely' NOT a pre-Mix type of torch" ....

A welding torch is a premix because the MIX of fuel and oxygen actually takes place in handle and the fuel/oxygen mixture travels up the torch tip as a mix and then is ignited at end of tip.... Same principle as the National A3 (or is 3A) Blow Pipe the is very popular with boro workers.

Having been a user of welding, cutting and brazing torches for 40 some years I think you are mistaken with your statement.

A surface mix torch only combiners the fuel and oxygen at the face of the torch where ignition takes place.

Dale

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

I disagree with your statement "is 'definitely' NOT a pre-Mix type of torch" ....

A welding torch is a premix because the MIX of fuel and oxygen actually takes place in handle and the fuel/oxygen mixture travels up the torch tip as a mix and then is ignited at end of tip.... Same principle as the National A3 (or is 3A) Blow Pipe the is very popular with boro workers.

Having been a user of welding, cutting and brazing torches for 40 some years I think you are mistaken with your statement.

A surface mix torch only combiners the fuel and oxygen at the face of the torch where ignition takes place.

Dale

I stand CORRECTED !!

Thanks for the heads up... Now I know the difference in the 'terminology'.

Cheers,

/Joeman...

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Smiley

Joeman, You are confused about the definition of "premix". This refers to the gases being mixed inside the torch handle before they exit the torch. Every welding torch I've ever heard of is premix. A surface mix torch is a torch that keeps the gas separate until they leave the torch. Little tubes keep the oxygen and fuel from mixing inside the body. They meet outside of the torch and mix on the "surface" of the face... the premix are rip roaring hotter, but that's not always a good thing with glass.

Thank-You as Well !

I was certainly confused with the terminology....

Great place to learn.

Cheers,

/Joeman..

[Joeman]

Originally Posted by pam

If your Victor torch has separate tubes for oxy and propane that meet at the end of the torch, then it is a surface mix, since the oxy and propane do not mix inside the torch, but are brought to the face of the torch as separate products. If, on the other hand, you see no little tubes at the face of the torch, then the propane and oxy are fed into the torch at the base, where they comingle and reach the face of the torch as a mixture. If your Victor torch is indeed a surface mix torch, then you can use it for soft glass.

Thanks Pam !

Cheers,

/Joeman...