First Torch - Opinions Please - Page 2

LarryC · #31 2011-06-30, 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELB

I completely agree.

I'm just worried about wasting the $ and buying something I won't appreciate because I'm not "good enough" to appreciate it. So everyone's feedback here is greatly appreciated!

That may be true. On the other hand realize that you may develop lots of bad habits early on because of your choices in equipment that may be very hard to break later. I would suggest that if a $200-$400 initial investment is too much for you, Boro may not be the best choice at all. Boro is very expensive, both clear and color.

ELB · #32 2011-06-30, 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryC

That may be true. On the other hand realize that you may develop lots of bad habits early on because of your choices in equipment that may be very hard to break later. I would suggest that if a $200-$400 initial investment is too much for you, Boro may not be the best choice at all. Boro is very expensive, both clear and color.

I didn't say that $200-$400 is too expensive: I don't want to spend $400 on a torch that I end up hating because I'm lacking a certain skill or something. I'm sorry if my newbie terminology came across as being cheap.

No matter what the hobby is, I always run into the crossroad of capital investment. I can go out into the "wild" and let a salesperson talk me into something I might not appreciate or I can ask people that have had experience and gather information that way instead. That's all.

Maybe it didn't come across correctly, but I'm trying to do a little research before I splurge. I wouldn't have posted this thread if Google or a board search yielded the information that's needed. I know how much glass is because I'm currently spending hours at the studio and I've put $$$ into glass. It sounds like some of you are tired of this question and I'm sorry for beating a dead horse.

glassdog · #33 2011-06-30, 10:46am

I agree with Greg. Play with what you have. As your skill increases you will either reinforce what you have or see the need to change.
And it is all about having fun.
So enjoy.
Mike

Bunyip · #34 2011-06-30, 2:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELB

It sounds like some of you are tired of this question and I'm sorry for beating a dead horse.

LOL don't feel bad about what happens once you release a thread into the wild. Unless you're intentionally starting trouble, you have no responsibility whatsoever for the life it takes on unless you are trolling (provoking controversy).

Now, I have a couple more torch comments/questions:

Based on what you said (melting boro, cheapest possible way) the welding torch is good. HOWEVER... If you're playing at a studio, what torches are you using? That may affect how you feel about the welding torch...you learn different habits with different torches. I remember the class I took with Milon he pretty much hated the gigantic Bethlehem (great white?) at the studio and opted for a premix that someone had brought along...

Second thought - If you were to buy a torch such as a lynx, or a minor burner etc, you can often get them used for a bit of a savings over list...and sell them for the same price if you dislike them. Therefore you'd only be out shipping, so that's a good plan "B". Depending on what you've tried at the studio, that may be your best option.

Third thought - before buying a torch, try as many as possible so that you have an idea of what is out there. There are a lot of options - but don't panic if you make a choice and don't like it, you can always change your mind later! Like Mike said, it's about having fun, & "Which Torch" is hardly an earth shattering decision...(although it may cause some glass to crack!)

ELB · #35 2011-07-01, 7:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunyip

If you're playing at a studio, what torches are you using?

They have GTT Bobcats there. I'm quite indifferent about it. With that said, I think I might need to get my hands on as many torches as possible. At the minimum, at least try the welding torch setup. If I hate it, then I will keep trying torches until I find a decent one.

Bunyip · #36 2011-07-01, 5:38pm

Ok. From what I gather GTT bobcat is somewhat similar to other smaller torches such as the minor burner, although the GTT torches seem a bit more forceful. Once you move to the GTT triple mix torches (lynx, cheetah etc) the flame can be set to be even more what I think of as "penetrating". When you play with the welding torch, the flame will be even more intense and penetrating with the standard welding tips. So that will be a good start in your learning! The nice thing as noted above is that you can get a variety of tips for welding torches which will allow you change the flame characteristics in new and interesting ways.

Have fun and post pictures!

LePatron · #37 2011-07-01, 6:21pm

I forgot about the welding tips. How versatile are the options for welders torches? I use a Smith Little Torch and use the #7 tip with it since that's the highest propane/oxygen flowing tip. It's an insanely handy boro too, I use it on any pipe with dots, marbles, welds, gong slides, etc.......

Bunyip · #38 2011-07-02, 1:56pm

Here's a few examples of more lampwork oriented tips:

http://www.etsy.com/listing/69383614...hisper-tip-for

Greg Cowles · #39 2011-07-03, 11:12am

Don't worry too much about the $$$ most of the torches on the market will retain their resale value for years. As long as you don't abuse it you won't be wasting money. in my time as a torchworker I found that I appreciated the torch I had until I reached the limits of what I could do with it, and wanted to do more. I started out on a soldering tip on a bottle of propane, went to a hothead on MAP gas, then a nortel minor, now I have a major minor and a national 3a, and I'm looking at picking up a GTT. For me this was a natural progression of hitting the limit of what I could do with the torch I had, and wanting to work either larger or faster. The most important things are to start feeling the glass, getting your fingers moving, and to work on flame control.

Buying your first torch and kiln can be an intimidating experience. Learn as much as you can so you can make informed decisions, but remember that with today's systems you really can't go wrong. Your style and preferences will change over time, and your equipment can change easily.
Basically there are no wrong decisions

I hope this helps to alleviate your first torch anxiety

ELB · #40 2011-07-05, 7:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Cowles

Buying your first torch and kiln can be an intimidating experience. Learn as much as you can so you can make informed decisions, but remember that with today's systems you really can't go wrong. Your style and preferences will change over time, and your equipment can change easily.
Basically there are no wrong decisions

I hope this helps to alleviate your first torch anxiety

Totally! Reading how everyone generates a flame really helps. Now at the minimum I have an idea of what to look for and what will work for my needs.

Kiln....

That's a whole other story though. One thing at a time!

Thanks for all your help guys! I really appreciate it.

crofootadv · #41 2011-07-05, 2:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELB

Kiln....

That's a whole other story though. One thing at a time!

Don't hide, Heck - start another "First Kiln" thread, we haven't had a one of those in a couple of months ! and don't let anybody bitching about thread subjects stop you, it's all valuable info, or opinions at least. I read every thread in the Boro Room because you never know what you're going to learn from just a random posting.

LePatron · #42 2011-07-05, 2:46pm

I'll just blurt it out, Paragon BlueBird XL or the Paragon F-420.

Pick which one you need size wise, it'll work great!

Mr. Meker · #43 2011-07-07, 10:29pm

I started with a torch like this-

Then I moved to the torch in this thread-

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133983

Now I have 2 5lpm 10psi concentrators. I run a National 3a with an OX-3 tip and a Nortel Minor. I was using the Minor today. It needs all 10lpm my concentrators can provide. My National 3a only needs 7lpm with the tip I have and is faster, hotter and has a larger flame than the Minor. Here is a pic of a neutral flame.

I think I will do some measurements soon, oxygen use, flame size, and time to cut a rod and make a gather.

And now to start another debate, notice I don't use the Oxford comma. Neither should you.

Conrad Hoffman · #44 2011-07-08, 5:51am

Strunk and White, Lynne Truss (Eats, Shoots & Leaves) and Bill Walsh (The Elephants of Style) all seem to agree with you. 'Course there ain't no law...

Is your name really Meker, or does that refer to the famous Meker burner from the chem lab? I have an old one and was surprised at how well the thing melts soft glass without even a pressurized air supply. It's hot!

Mr. Meker · #45 2011-07-08, 9:55pm

I thought I could use a Meker burner for soft glass, so that is what I named my profile after. The burner I ordered was not what I expected. Your average Bunsen burner would have been better. It would only give me a soft, barely neutral flame, but I expected to get something like the Japanese burners. I decided not to mention it in my previous post because I didn't want anyone to think it would work for them. I would like more information on your burner, though.

Conrad Hoffman · #46 2011-07-09, 7:00am

I had picked up an old Fisher burner, which is the classic Meker type Bunsen burner with about a 1" grid face. I think they're really designed for NG, not propane, unless special ordered. No idea what the difference is since the jet is controlled by a needle valve. Maybe the grid spacing or length is different. Anyway, your description is correct. It has a soft and barely neutral flame- I don't think any burners without pressurized air/oxy supplies can really get to neutral, but since the flame is big and quite hot it's still useful. It will certainly bend tubing and rod for lab glass work, but the flame is too big for precision of any sort. I figure it's good for copper enameling and for getting some big thing up to temperature before introducing it to the oxy torch. It's probably not useful for the typical bead maker.

I also have a Grobet air/fuel torch and though it would be great for jewelry metal work, it's very unimpressive with glass. It's loud and doesn't seem very hot for all the noise it makes. I had talked with ABR about the Japanese air/fuel torches and I think they said that style wasn't well suited to typical US bead and glass work. They look like they'd be good for torched enamel work, but probably overkill. IMO, they look cool.

As for the OP, I also have welding stuff and think it could be a far less expensive solution, given the right tips and running propane instead of acetylene. Due to the ongoing acetylene shortage the local welding shop is stocking more and more propane equipment. They've switched the local scrap yards over to propane for cutting, they carry type T hoses now (for 2X the price of R) and they have many tips and torches for propane. Look, no Oxford comma!

Kyra · #47 2011-11-22, 9:20pm

My mom was one of those boro sculptors who started in the 70s with a national 3a and she still uses one. When I was learning it was on a national 3a without a stand, we just cut a hole in a table and wedged it in tight

Working with what you've got will help you figure out what you like and don't like. You can push your tools pretty far with practice. I've been operating my own little glass business off my national so far but a red max is being shipped my way as I type.

I'd love to see pics of how things went for you. I see I'm joining the conversation a little late.

Conrad Hoffman · #48 2011-11-25, 1:19pm

Yes, I'm curious how ELB made out. I was just at the welding dealer the other day and they showed me the catalog of all the various propane tips that are available for welding torches. They're listed under brazing and heating tips, as you can't weld with propane. This is probably a very much under-looked option for glass working but I can't see any reason it wouldn't be just super for lots of different kinds of work. I have my Bullet for most things, not all of which are glass, but right now I'm looking to go smaller. I want to do some small lab work and need a flame maybe 0.1" diameter at most. I'll probably try machining up a special tip for my Grobet, as they supposedly sell a tip to let one use oxy with it- it's normally an air torch.

Mark Parkinson · #49 2011-11-29, 7:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman

as you can't weld with propane.

thats funny been doing exactly that for years ... as always its about how you use the tools not the tools

VickieLee · #50 2011-11-29, 8:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyra

My mom was one of those boro sculptors who started in the 70s with a national 3a and she still uses one. When I was learning it was on a national 3a without a stand, we just cut a hole in a table and wedged it in tight

Working with what you've got will help you figure out what you like and don't like. You can push your tools pretty far with practice. I've been operating my own little glass business off my national so far but a red max is being shipped my way as I type.

I'd love to see pics of how things went for you. I see I'm joining the conversation a little late.

Kyra..
What is your mom's name and where did she work at in the 70's? I started in Jan. 1972 on a National 3a as well. Back then it was a much smaller group of glass people, I was just wondering if I might have come across her work over the years. I just saw one of my old clown lines on Ebay being sold as a RARE collectible...ha ha. Now if that doesn't make a person feel old.
I still have my National torches, but I also have quite a few nice tips for them. Anywhere from 12 to 48 hole tips, if anyone is interested.
Vickie

Kyra · #51 2011-12-18, 12:56am

My mom used to go by something else back then. I forget what it was... Emily maybe? Her name is Cynthia Toffey but some people call her Genn, which is her maiden name. I'm sorry for the confusing answer! She recently moved back to Berkeley, CA from Korea. Back then she worked with Milon Townsend in NYC.

ELB · #52 2011-12-25, 4:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conrad Hoffman

Yes, I'm curious how ELB made out. I was just at the welding dealer the other day and they showed me the catalog of all the various propane tips that are available for welding torches. They're listed under brazing and heating tips, as you can't weld with propane. This is probably a very much under-looked option for glass working but I can't see any reason it wouldn't be just super for lots of different kinds of work. I have my Bullet for most things, not all of which are glass, but right now I'm looking to go smaller. I want to do some small lab work and need a flame maybe 0.1" diameter at most. I'll probably try machining up a special tip for my Grobet, as they supposedly sell a tip to let one use oxy with it- it's normally an air torch.

Hi Conrad,

It's been forever since I've logged into here but it's a good thing because I've been super busy on the torch. Here's the update:

I found a screamin' deal on Glasscraft on a Redmax with a pre-mix top shortly after doing a little more research after posting this thread.
I ended up getting a Glass Hive Short Guy.
Both items paid for itself by the end of this year.
That's pretty much it, so I did not end up going the welding route. The Interchangable tips on the top torch on my Redmax has been very good to me!

Merry Christmas

patienthand · #53 2011-12-30, 6:59am

wow... raising my hand.. another started in the 70s person here

Lorraine Chandler · #54 2011-12-30, 9:44am

I think this quote from Mike is the key phrase...

" And a welding torch does not work well at all for soft glass. For them I use a Nortel major/minor, which is probabily the best buy for the buck in surface mix torches."

So if you want to use boro and a set up like Mikes that would be great but if you want to use soft glass 90 COE and higher then he states a regular lampworking torch is needed.