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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #1  
Old 2013-04-26, 8:37am
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Default Anyone Get Good Color with Concentrators?

I can get good color on encased beads no problem. Or maybe there is and I don't know it..... But then I see M. Greenstones jellies and wonder. I have a kiln full of jellies and have struck them at 1100 so many times I've lost track. I know to burn that haze off and some get a little color but nothing like his. I work on a Scorpion with 2 m-20's on the rear and 5 at the front. I have to rage the back as I also have a tank they all feed into. Do most people get those colors or is he special? Seriously, I have been trying for years!
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Old 2013-04-26, 8:51am
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yes, I have never had a problem with getting vivid colors with tanked oxygen. Rent a tank & see for yourself.
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  #3  
Old 2013-04-26, 9:26am
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so long as you keep the haze burnt off (assuming you don't want reduction) you're colors should work fine.
i'm using a redmax on three oxycons and most of the a/p colors work great for me. it just takes some time to learn how they like to be worked.
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  #4  
Old 2013-04-26, 9:45am
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I don't want to rent a tank. That would ruin me, lol. Istandalone, do you get those colors in deep encasement?
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  #5  
Old 2013-04-26, 10:08am
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Listen to Todd. You need the higher pressure and purity to work these colors to their best. There are no tricks and no free lunch.
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  #6  
Old 2013-04-26, 11:29am
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Is it safe to have one in the basement of a house?
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  #7  
Old 2013-04-26, 11:41am
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Very safe assuming you follow good practices for handling the tanks. Safer than the propane you are using by far since it is not explosive. Where did you hear differently?

Last edited by LarryC; 2013-04-26 at 11:43am.
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  #8  
Old 2013-04-26, 12:00pm
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yes oxygen tanks are safe in your basement.

the danger for oxygen tanks is that with out the safety cap that they use to cover the valve if they are knocked over and the valves off the tanks can become a rocket as it vents the 2000 psi out. so as long as you thread the cap on when moving the tanks and chain the tank to some thing that will prevent it from tipping over your fine.

the down side is they are not light so have a plan to carry it up and down to get it refilled. the next thing is what size tank. if you get the bigger one that won't need to be filled as often they weigh more, to small and you go through they in no time. so you want as big as you can get back to exchange.

(guess i should have refreshed the page before i answered.)

Last edited by mightymike; 2013-04-26 at 12:03pm.
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  #9  
Old 2013-04-26, 12:45pm
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I have a scorpion and you don't need a tank. Your concentrators are just not enough.
I run mine with 2 big ol' regalias, and I can tell you I get color, just fine.
this is not the best picture I've ever taken, but it demonstrates a nice pink.

2 Regalias Y'd together is what I work with. I was told that is equal to 5 m-20's.
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Old 2013-04-26, 12:50pm
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It also depends on tecnique and what color you are using. Silver colors are famous for being really picky on flame chemistry and heat. WUSIWYG colors are boily but can be really beautiful once you learn how to use them.
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  #11  
Old 2013-04-26, 12:54pm
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Brent (Mr.Smiley) uses oxycons and he gets crazy vivid colors. You don't have to have tanks to get good color.
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  #12  
Old 2013-04-26, 1:28pm
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Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate every post. I can work boro fine staying with beads and pendants. When I try to do the deep encasing with silver colors is where I'm not getting it. An example is the jellies. I got some Green Morada, the Orchard Plum and Mai Tai to make some just for fun. I'm not selling them, I just want to see if I can get what Maui does.

As for trying a tank, I need to get it down 13 stairs so I might try a smaller one. I also thought Smiley used concentrators in FL so that's why I thought I was missing something.

Mary, your flower is Gorgeous!

Oh, I'm also using NG, not propane.
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  #13  
Old 2013-04-26, 1:29pm
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I've gotten great color with 2 and sometimes 3 M-15's on the Barracuda. I usually only bother to hook up the 3rd one if I'm going to make marbles. I don't do that often.
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  #14  
Old 2013-04-26, 1:31pm
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Boro requires lots of heat and all of the silver striking colors we all love require lots of high purity oxygen as well and there is no way around that. However you can achieve that is good. I think the cheapest simplest way is with tanked oxygen. Others like oxycons....to each his own. Do a search here and read the archives in the boro forum and see the results folks are getting with both oxygen setups. I think it speaks for itself.

Last edited by LarryC; 2013-04-26 at 1:48pm.
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  #15  
Old 2013-04-26, 2:22pm
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Hi Rose

Until very recently, I worked on a Lynx with one Integra 10, making very big beads both hollow and encased, pulling murrine cane, as well as working with color rod-encased tubing. Buyers always compliment me on my color range and clarity, and I don't remember experiencing any frustration when I switched to the concentrator from tanks about 8 years ago, but there were some fewer colors then.

I work slower than many other people, and that can be a problem, but I've always felt that being patient has allowed me to preserve certain colors, especially ones with a lot of metal, instead of raging them hot and fast and possibly burning the color out? That's entirely my musing, no science to back it up.

The biggest thing with the Amber Purples is to burn off the haze as early as possible, and keep it burnt off while you're working. You may have to work harder to burn off Double Amber Purple/Stormy Weather type dark purple colors. Try not to heat and cool the color too many times, and if you do build up some mud, you can "erase the striking history" of SOME colors by heating them up to clear and soupy again.

Also, Maui works with his kiln temperatures much more than most of us do, I would guess, and he seems to achieve some startling results. Try some of his suggested techs, the proof is in his pictures which change dramatically from cycle to cycle, having nothing to do with flame chemistry. If you're looking for color effects specifically encased as with jellies, try different manufacturers. Schott, Pyrex, and Simax clear all react differently to striking colors and fuming. I had some Pyrex rod that made every frit implosion turn pastel with little hazy cloud linings around the edges. Washed out looking, but beautiful and dramatically different than Schott and Simax.

If I understood you correctly you've got 7 M20 concentrators with a holding tank? Or maybe you meant two M20's and a 5 lpm? That's more likely isn't it. It doesn't sound like you're trying for tricks and a free lunch to me. Tanks are safe if handled properly, but that doesn't mean they're an option for everyone. Kimberly may want to correct me, but I believe that if your purity is above 94% and you have adequate LPMs, especially with a Scorpion which is built to be run on lower psi, you should be able to work color just as well as on tanks, if not as fast.

Martha

Last edited by Liquidsand; 2013-04-26 at 2:26pm. Reason: Clarification
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  #16  
Old 2013-04-26, 2:57pm
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I have 2 M-20's, a 5 and a holding tank. I'm still reading your post and need to digest it, but wanted to clarify that.

I'm trying Maui's kiln temps and suggestions. I'm doing this just because I've been trying for years now. I want to see that color for myself, lol. I AM using Kimble and the next thing on my list is to get Simax. I do have a piece here already, have tried it with the jellies, too, and got a bit better color but not enough. Today I'm trying to see if working closer the the torch head helps. It'll take a day or so for me to see the kiln results. I'm just damned determined!
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  #17  
Old 2013-04-26, 4:58pm
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you didn't mention which clear you were using, if you are not using simax then try some, pyrex and schott can give you a lot of problems with colours, they will be baby poo most of the time. Actually the Chinese clear gives good colours.
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Last edited by castaway; 2013-04-26 at 5:11pm.
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  #18  
Old 2013-04-27, 5:12am
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Bernard, I'm using Kimble, I think. I have one 20mm rod of Simax and have gotten a bit better color with that. I plan on getting more in several sizes and go that route.

How can you tell if you are burining the color out?

I used the Morada yesterday. I first heated the end of the rod, worked it close to the torch head and kept it there, white hot for longer than I normally would. Then pulled some stringer down. For another one I mixed it in with some clear. Both jellies are in the kiln right now so will be anxious to see.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I'm not giving up yet.
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  #19  
Old 2013-04-27, 5:51am
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also OP asked about vibrant colors under deep encasement.

i don't have too much experience in that....but i know if you're using schott then you're silver strikers will always milk out.

if you're using heavy silver colors, use simax for clear.
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Old 2013-04-27, 7:44am
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Well, it's looking more hopeful. I got some nice color from some Orchard Plum in a pendant, not a jelly, and I need to put the Morado in for more strikes. I'll post pics when they're done.
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  #21  
Old 2013-04-27, 8:17am
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I have a cricket with 2 oxy-cons and can work boro well because the cricket was designed to work off oxy-cons. You should check out the crickt.

Sue
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  #22  
Old 2013-04-27, 10:01am
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Sue, I have a cricket in my Scorpion
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  #23  
Old 2013-04-27, 2:03pm
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Rose,
I blend some of these colors such as Morado with clear, as they are a little too saturated to let the true colors come through. Simax is key. Working ripping hot the entire time until it goes into the kiln also helps bring out more vibrancies. Also one another trick I use that's waaaay less technical
Is to just leave the piece in the back of the kiln for a week or two checking it each day before ramping up to see if you like the color. Pm me if u have a question as I just got slammed here and I don't have time to check threads daily, but I do check my email wich notifies me
Of PMs
Good luck, hope this helps. And to answer your question, you can get awesome color with your setup, you just have to be more mindful of not reducing.
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  #24  
Old 2013-04-27, 4:01pm
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Thank you John, I appreciate that.
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Old 2013-04-28, 8:43am
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I didn't know Kimble is Pyrex. Duh That maybe explains some of my difficulty.
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Old 2013-04-29, 9:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose View Post
I didn't know Kimble is Pyrex. Duh That maybe explains some of my difficulty.
Who said Kimble is Pyrex? It isn't.

Kimble is a glass manufacturer. They make Kimax KG-33 borosilicate rod, among others. Pyrex is the brand name for a wide variety of borosilicate laboratory glasses and tempered soda-lime kitchen ware. Pyrex 7740 is the boro rod normally used by artistic lampworkers.

Kimble and Pyrex are the "same" like Ford and Corvette are the same.

Brad
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Old 2013-04-29, 10:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaker View Post
Who said Kimble is Pyrex? It isn't.

Kimble is a glass manufacturer. They make Kimax KG-33 borosilicate rod, among others. Pyrex is the brand name for a wide variety of borosilicate laboratory glasses and tempered soda-lime kitchen ware. Pyrex 7740 is the boro rod normally used by artistic lampworkers.

Kimble and Pyrex are the "same" like Ford and Corvette are the same.

Brad
You can also buy clear rod and tubing branded as Pyrex. Got a case sitting at home. I find it reacts to colors identically as Simax and Schott.
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Old 2013-04-29, 11:54am
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Brad, I googled it, which I can't find right now, and that is what it said. I have NO idea, really. If I mis-spoke, I apologize. I ordered some Simax today and if that doesn't help me, I'll stick with soft glass. I have had no issues with Kimble and I'm just assuming Kimble is what I have. I got it at Glasscraft in Denver.
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Old 2013-04-29, 8:50pm
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Rose
You asked, " How can you tell if you are burning the color out?"
The more I think about it, the less sense my statement about 'burning color out' is making to me, based on what I understand of boro color. Typically, working hot and fast (without boiling the glass)is the better way to get bright colors, as Maui said. I think my impression that working slower and cooler gave me better color results was something I arrived at early, as a beginner, and never really reconsidered. Maybe in my case it has more to do with not overworking, being patient and going slowly enough to get it right the first time rather than going back and fixing it, thus heating and reheating multiple times. That's often when you end up with the muddy "burned out" silver haze ruining the vibrancy of your color. Does that make more logical sense?
I have also had my share of wash outs with heavily encased focals. I work more on the surface now with a lot of the amber purples , and I have gotten familiar with colors that remain vibrant under clear.
I don't remember who said it, but I recently read a post that explained that once the haze gets cooked into the glass, it can be there to stay. So I take that to mean it is best to burn it off right away, and cover it with clear before it develops again and makes a permanent deposit.

I'm glad you're having more luck with the Simax.
Martha

Last edited by Liquidsand; 2013-04-30 at 5:50am. Reason: Sentence structure (stupid cell phone keyboard)!
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Old 2013-04-30, 5:02am
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Thanks Martha, that makes sense. I'm being more mindful now of "how" I'm working. Like keeping that glass in the flame instead of bobbing in and out. I have some Simax (for sure) coming today so I'll be curious to see if there is a difference. Thanks everyone for your input!
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