Toaster oven kiln

[griffenspade]

For me, the largest obstace was getting a kiln, I simply cannt afford one and I find the cost to be absolutely aburd considering the technology that goes into one(Heating element, Insulation, Temp Control). So lately iv been trying to find a way to build one.

My first experiement was with my toaster over, The dial said it was meant to go up to 500 Degrees F. But I'v noticed that the outside metal box feels very hot, which means its loosing alot of heat and it can get hotter, after two inches of thermal insulation on all interior sides, I cranked the thing up to all the way set it on, "toast" which puts all the juice though the top heating elements and stuck my pyrometer with K thermalcoup in it.

The highest reading I got was 398 C which is about 748 F. After 300 degrees C the numbers began to climb much more slowly. Not bad a 250 degree improvement. But the thing started to smell of burning plastic and the metal outside began to buckle under the heat.

Well my next try I think im going to get a beer keg cover the inside with insulation and put a element in it. I hope it goes better.

[squid]

my beginning instructor said that you could use one of those halogen spotlights - the free-standing kind with the big rectangular housings - and use a fiber blanket in front of the bulb. I seem to recall you build a "cage" from wire to hold the blanket on the light housing. Not sure how hot it actually gets, but might be worth checking out.

[Tink]

The old halogen lamp idea is VERY dangerous. Very. Dangerous.

Why not get some firebrick and some frax and build your own using materials that will stand up to the job? There are some really good plans out there, and you can even get digital controllers pretty darn cheap. I figure I'll probably build my next kiln.

[Raven Wylder]

Griffen - what Tink said...it would be easier to build one, do a search, Mark (I think his id is laserglass) has plans on on how to make a kiln and a controller. A toaster oven can't get up to 940-960 range which is the usual range most people anneal at for 104 glass. Also, you'd need to be able to control the heat as it cools down. I would think the toaster oven would lose too much heat too fast.

[Tink]

...not to mention the fact that the little elements in the toaster over would be, quite literally, 'toast' after one or two attempts at higher temps.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Tink

The old halogen lamp idea is VERY dangerous. Very. Dangerous.

Why not get some firebrick and some frax and build your own using materials that will stand up to the job? There are some really good plans out there, and you can even get digital controllers pretty darn cheap. I figure I'll probably build my next kiln.

OK, so it seemed a little crazy, but I have to ask - what makes it so dangerous? Given that he just superheated a toaster oven, it didn't seem much worse.

[MaryBeth]

Here's a link on how to build a controller:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ght=build+kiln

Here's a link on how to build the actual kiln in a mailbox:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ght=build+kiln

[KEW]

The kiln in the mailbox is an oldie. I think Jim Kerwin gives directions in "More Than You Ever Wanted to Know About Glass Beadmaking".

[Beadbug]

I would never walk away from something not built for the high temps needed to anneal, it could easily start on fire and burn your house down!

[Carolyn M]

I think the beer keg idea sounds extremely dangerous. Get some firebrick!

[Dale M.]

The halogen lamp and toaster oven ideas are purely a recipe for disaster.

Neither unit is designed to operate at annealing temperatures. Even with additional insulation and other supposed safety considerations you are still dealing massive amount of heat. Most objects have melting points and these devices are getting pretty close to where things melt. Halogen lamps will ignite paper in contact with it in free air!. And people want to increase it temperature. Stupid in my book.

Custom made and well though out annealers either in a mailbox or a tool box is not in same category as a light bulb with a ball of insulation around it...

Kilns are well designed OVENS and generally have several inches of FIRE BRICK or FIBER insulation surrounding heat chamber. This make them safer as less heat is transferred to outside of kiln. Also recognize that kiln come with warnings about hot surfaces and keeping them away from combustible surfaces.

THE halogen lamp "thing" should have never been published . Its down right dangerous as it takes the heat factors way beyond the lamps design criteria and there is a danger of shattering the glass face plate, glass tube enclosing lamp elements and its base makes it highly unstable ( tipping hazard)... IF it becomes unstable reach out and grab it to keep it from falling... I guarantee you, you will only do it once and it will probable be months before you can make beads while the BURNS are healing.

IF you need budget kiln look for something like a "Burn Out Oven" used by last wax casting professes... Mine cost abort $350 ... Sure it has infinite controller but I have the time to babysit it. Controller is a later project.

Ultimately the scabbed together pieces of crap will cost you more than the cost of a decent kiln..... How much is your car worth, or your house or your kids and spouses lives or your life worth?

Well???

Dale

[Tink]

Ditto what Dale said.

I had a bunch of other stuff typed in, and decided to leave well enough alone

[lunamoonshadow]

Originally Posted by MaryBeth

Here's a link on how to build a controller:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ght=build+kiln

Here's a link on how to build the actual kiln in a mailbox:

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...ght=build+kiln

Why waste money & parts & all sorts of time (which is worth money--after all, you could just work a part time job somewhere & bank that cash for a kiln) messing around with weird & dangerous ideas when there's a safe way to build a safe, proven, WORKING kiln that will acutally ANNEAL your beads? Just seems silly (and potentially death-inducing) to me.

[squid]

Just for the record, I completely agree with the halogen bulb being a crazy idea, but considering that this person had already "toasted" a toaster oven......

I would NEVER do either of them - but my very first instructor was the one that told me about the halogen bulb thing.

[MaryBeth]

Originally Posted by lunamoonshadow

Why waste money & parts & all sorts of time (which is worth money--after all, you could just work a part time job somewhere & bank that cash for a kiln) messing around with weird & dangerous ideas when there's a safe way to build a safe, proven, WORKING kiln that will acutally ANNEAL your beads? Just seems silly (and potentially death-inducing) to me.

Neither of those links that I provided are weird or dangerous ideas. They are the links that Mark put up to build a controller and a kiln in a mailbox shell. They don't seem anymore weird or dangerous than the toolbox kilns that are sold commercially.

I do agree that the toaster oven and the halogen lamp ideas are both probably quite dangerous.

[Tink]

Originally Posted by lunamoonshadow

Why waste money & parts & all sorts of time (which is worth money--after all, you could just work a part time job somewhere & bank that cash for a kiln) messing around with weird & dangerous ideas when there's a safe way to build a safe, proven, WORKING kiln that will acutally ANNEAL your beads? Just seems silly (and potentially death-inducing) to me.

Mary Beth, I think lunamoonshadow was saying why waste money and time on the halogen lamp or toaster oven things when you can do something that is safe and will really work by following the instructions in the links you posted.

[MaryBeth]

Originally Posted by Tink

Mary Beth, I think lunamoonshadow was saying why waste money and time on the halogen lamp or toaster oven things when you can do something that is safe and will really work by following the instructions in the links you posted.

Whoops! You are probably right! Sorry, Luna! My reading comprehension today sucks.

[Tink]

I'm having the same problem today. Not just reading though, hearing what people say incorrectly. LOL! I've decided it's not a good day to do anything that requires those two skills to be working.

[lunamoonshadow]

Yep, I was . Thanks Tink & No worries MaryBeth--I've had those days too!

[griffenspade]

Well thanks for all who have replied, im glad its atleast gotten people talking about it. I dont currently have a halogon lamp, id probably try it if i did. But I dont!

However, I do have most of the pieces for a homemade kiln, (Used 1000W heating element, from stove, 55 Gallon waste drum, and several feet of fiber insulation 2 inches thick, 1.5 feet wide, 12 feet long roll)

I am going to try to go for the kiln. From what I learned from the toaster oven expermiment; as I get closer to that 1050 degrees F, it the temp rise gets slower and slower, hence more controlable, and by simply lifting the lid SLIGHTLY ajar i can get the temp to drop fairly controlably. And If i need more heat simply plug in the element. With this method, my experiemnts with the toaster oven, I can maintain a fairly stead temp. I am not going to anneal massive objects, for long periods of time, so for me this is "close enough"

With some rudimentary math, im going to cut the barrel to size, where the element is just barely enough to get the interior chamber up to 1050.

this eliminates the need for a temp controler.

Give me a few weeks and ill have the thing up and running, tweeked up fine, and ill post pics. It seems somewhat funny for me that, whenever I talk about a new thing I "invented" or a new idea it stirrs up massive controversy. Dont worry about it, Ill be fine!

[griffenspade]

Well I first gotta get the barrel out of the ground, its frozen solid, dam chicago snow

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by griffenspade

Well thanks for all who have replied, im glad its atleast gotten people talking about it. I dont currently have a halogon lamp, id probably try it if i did. But I dont!

However, I do have most of the pieces for a homemade kiln, (Used 1000W heating element, from stove, 55 Gallon waste drum, and several feet of fiber insulation 2 inches thick, 1.5 feet wide, 12 feet long roll)

I am going to try to go for the kiln. From what I learned from the toaster oven expermiment; as I get closer to that 1050 degrees F, it the temp rise gets slower and slower, hence more controlable, and by simply lifting the lid SLIGHTLY ajar i can get the temp to drop fairly controlably. And If i need more heat simply plug in the element. With this method, my experiemnts with the toaster oven, I can maintain a fairly stead temp. I am not going to anneal massive objects, for long periods of time, so for me this is "close enough"

With some rudimentary math, im going to cut the barrel to size, where the element is just barely enough to get the interior chamber up to 1050.

this eliminates the need for a temp controler.

Give me a few weeks and ill have the thing up and running, tweeked up fine, and ill post pics. It seems somewhat funny for me that, whenever I talk about a new thing I "invented" or a new idea it stirrs up massive controversy. Dont worry about it, Ill be fine!

Hope your roll of fiber insulation is "refractory" grade (high temperature) if its the plain old stuff used to insulate homes, I don't think it has high enough temperature rating, you may be disappointed when it goes up in smoke....

Dale

[NightCat]

Pulls up a chair and grabs a bag of popcorn.. Well, this should be REALLY entertaining!

If you ever want to make a real kiln, there are at least a handfull of us on this fourm that have done it. A Fuji (or similar) controller, a thermocouple and a solidstate relay are, dare I say, highly desirable.

Best of luck and I would love to see pictures of your experiments!
~Ross

[lunamoonshadow]

I'm hoping that 55 gal drum is *really* clean....
(imagining something scary having been in it previously...just from the word "waste drum", you know???)

[griffenspade]

Its not household insulation.... I got it from sundance art glass. Its definately the high temp kind.

O yeah, the barrel it should b clean by now, Iv used it as a firepit for perhaps 4 years, the first few uses, it did have a funky chemical smell, but after a few burns the stuff is all gone.

[GLASSFREEK]

Befor you call the price of a kiln obsurd,you should price all the parts needed to build a good kiln,you will find we are not getting rich by any means.I cant use used parts and parts that shouldnt be used in a kiln to build a good kiln.And putting all the parts together right takes time.

Marry, there are a few things wrong with this mailbox kiln.while I love people that build things for themselfs ,they need to test them befor they tell alot of people that this will work.
The element in that kiln will fail in just a few fireings as its a furnace element ment to heat the air in a furnace box to about 200F not 1000F.Elements for kilns need to be the right configuration (amps - watts and strech) for the kiln and they need to be supported or it will sag and short out on each other.the Galvanized metal in the kiln is a big no no, galvanized has Zinc in it,zinc melts at about 900°F and vaporizes at about 1650°F zinc vapor can kill you or just mess up your lungs.

Griff

I have no problem with people building things for themselfs just do it safe and do some research,and dont show lots of people your invention till you have tested it for awile and you know that its safe.

Mike

[lldesigns]

Unfortunately the going prices for kilns is what's driving some teachers to get away with telling the students it's okay to fiber blanket or crock pot 'anneal' beads. They want new customers and a kiln is cost (and student) prohibitive.

ETA - let me clarify that I know no one on this board would ever do that! I'm referring to a post I saw recently about some mainstream stores that teach lampworking classes and that are only interested in signing up students and selling supplies as opposed to teaching about proper annealing techniques.

I don't want to get jumped on....

[laserglass]

here is a tutorial that seems to have gotten lost in time. i made this kiln specifically for people who don't have much money, aren't very handy, and need to be able to get most of the materials at local hardware stores (except the bricks and frax). this kiln was made specifically for batch annealing. you can use your fiber blanket or crock pot to reduce thermal shock, remove your glass from the mandrels, and then batch anneal. i have been using this kiln now for many years. i currently use it for my vacuum cup, kind of like a stump sucker on steroids. it easily gets to 1050F so it can anneal boro or soft glass. here is a link

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...+pipe+annealer

[squid]

that is very cool, Mark!

[griffenspade]

Mark that stove pipe anealer is pretty sweet, thats actually very very close to what im doing, just alittle bit bigger. I have the same heating element. Im gonna use a few of them, in a 55 gallon drum, sawwed down by 1/3.

Iv already cut the barrel down, welded a new bottom for it, Next goes insulation, and heating element.