Advice and suggestions wanted for working in a basement with low ceilings

blueburnsorange · #1 2013-09-23, 1:32pm

Hello all,
some of you might have seen my similar post on another lampworking forum, nothing wrong with the advice I got over there - I'm just covering all by bases. I know there are some gurus over here (Dale, Bill, etc...) who's opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Long story short - I'm moving into a new house with an unfinished basement. After months of torch classes and practicing at home with a hot-head, I can finally do boro work at home (I hope!) I think I've lurked here long enough to be familiar with at least some of the basic needs.... but here is a recent pendant I created with a HH torch, soft glass and no kiln

1. Low ceilings. I mean the bottom of the ceiling joists are at about 5'5" and maybe 6' height between joists. Since I sit while I work I'd be OK with it but it changes how my hood will be setup - there is no room to run ducts upwards so the exhaust hole would be at the back or side rather than the top of the hood. Seems OK, right?

2. The basement has a small window for fresh air and cellar-door in the back by the alley where I could easily put an 8"-12" exhaust port. Depending on how I layout the basement I think I can get a completely straight duct line from the work table to the fan with no bends or angles. I'm thinking an inline fan is best but don't know the yet because....

2b. My water heater and furnace are down here (brand new 2013 models) and they are gas/forced air. I'm familiar with the concept of "flu reversal" but do not know the best position for the setup to avoid it. I'd like to box in my work area as much as possible with sheet metal to really focus the pull of the exhaust air, so...

It would be within my budget to frame out a wall/door to separate the room where hopefully the makeup air coming in from behind me would prevent the flue reversal situation (?) but would that be necessary. Here are some layout ideas.

Example 1: room design draft without partition
Example 2: room design draft with partition

Additional considerations:

- propane tank is stored in the back alley with METAL piping to bring it into the house, shutoff valves at each end (as Dale recommends). No legal issues there, people have propane grills back there all the time.
- Oxycon instead of tanked oxy (I'm only getting a lynx or mega-minor for now)
- 110v Ken-Jen kiln
- expected usage: probably between 5-10 hours of lampworking per week

Thank you in advance for everyone's time to read/reply - hopefully I didn't ask too many redundant questions!

Talonst · #2 2013-09-23, 1:39pm

The flue reversal issue isn't about location, it can occur if there isn't enough supply air coming from the window to match the amount of air being exhausted out of the space by the fan. From that point of view the plan with the partition is better assuming that the door is closed and the window can provide enough fresh air to make up for the air being exhausted.

If you have the option a dedicated circuit for your kiln is best. 20A lets you grow into a larger 110 kiln if you need to.

blueburnsorange · #3 2013-09-23, 1:50pm

Thanks Talonst...

We are putting a hot-tub in soon and I'm gonna need to do a 60A 220v addition to the breaker then, maybe its a good opportunity to add another 20A 220 for a better kiln down the road (I'm wincing at the thought of the electric bill)

So that "small window" in the diagram currently cannot be opened. I was either going to replace it with an openable window (which would literally be directly behind my head in the second, walled example)... but if you don't think that would be enough to eliminate the flu reversal I could consider adding another inline fan & ducting to boost the intake air and place it under the bench but that would be a whole new can of worms to open up.

How could I test to see if flu reversal is a problem? It doesn't seem as easy as the incense test

Talonst · #4 2013-09-23, 4:25pm

You'll have to wait for some of the engineers to chime in on exactly what calcs to run to figure the size opening you need for intake air to be safe.

A 20A 110 will handle most of the small kilns up to F130, larger than that would need at least 30A 220

Alaska · #5 2013-09-23, 5:09pm

Most USA building codes require the use of a fresh air vent for the use of gas appliances. There is most likely one installed for that purpose.

In addition, as others have indicated, there is a need for additional fresh make up air to balance out the exhausted air from your lampworking fan/hood.

Also keep in mind the required distance between supply and exhaust sources.

blueburnsorange · #6 2013-09-23, 5:17pm

Hi Alaska,

I think the appliances vent is in the form of a small (maybe under 6") PVC pipe running out of the side (?) - I don't think that would be adequate for my ventilation, right?

It sounds like the farther back towards the small window (fresh air source) i go the better so I'll keep that in mind. It would still be a straight, wide-diameter exhaust pipe but just a few feet farther to the exhaust fan.

Alaska · #7 2013-09-24, 1:59am

Older heating systems did not use a direct vent system which use a double pipe. i.e. a gas fireplace uses a direct vent where the fireplace does not use any air from inside the house. Newer high efficiency systems use PVC pipe as the exhaust gases are much cooler.

IMO a 6 inch pipe is NOT adequate for your ventilation. The area of concern is that sufficient make up air is needed to prevent any back flow issues with your water heater and heating system. And yet balance out the air that is being exhausted from your torch.

The shorter the run with the least amount of bends is preferable along with the use of smooth pipe and not corrugated.

Your supply air could be as simple as putting in a window that is in the back your torch area. Your venting out the opposite side is ideal as it keeps the inlet air away from the exhaust.

houptdavid · #8 2013-09-24, 5:56am

Can you wall off the heater and water heater and create an intake air for that small mechanical room?

Talonst · #9 2013-09-24, 6:23am

Probably best to get in touch with a reputable HVAC contractor. They'll be able to design a proper enclosure and make whatever modifications are needed for ventillation. The enclosure would likely need to be fire rated and the contractor will know what to do and how to be safe and code compliant.

blueburnsorange · #10 2013-09-24, 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by houptdavid

Can you wall off the heater and water heater and create an intake air for that small mechanical room?

I think if I go with that second design link in my OP, I'm basically doing that - not sure where the wall actually would wind up but it would end up with the lampworking room having a window for intake air and the water-heater/furnace having the intended intake air source.

blueburnsorange · #11 2013-10-01, 6:17am

Hello again, so I've learned that getting a hold of a Lynx might be damn-near impossible but a mega-minor might be underpowered so I'm considering a RedMax+premix top. I know it is more of an oxy-hog and I think the RedMax bottom might be a little overkill for 99% of what I'm interested in but who knows, maybe I'll get into making goblets or something someday.

Anyway.... considering I'm in a basement the idea of using natural gas and a NG booster (yes, I know $1k+) and an oxycon with the Lynx had bounced through my head. NG is lighter than propane, maybe a little safer? Not like I was going to store the tank indoors, but still....

Being tank-free does have it's appeal and I do have some money to play with so let's say I had an NG booster AND stacked a couple of oxycons (E15's?) - would it be enough to power a RedMax?

blueburnsorange · #12 2013-10-01, 10:30am

Also, looking at this fan for my exhaust (straight line, no bends and less than 20ft of duct)
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/FAN...Duct-Fan-6KVY7

Alaska · #13 2013-10-01, 1:24pm

Figure $1,100 to $1,600 or so for a NG booster. These folks make a nice product. See if they have any demo or slightly used offerings for a cost savings.

http://www.safe-t-gas.com/TorchBoostersGL.html

blueburnsorange · #14 2013-10-01, 2:32pm

lol keep going - TB60 is rated for redmax/cheetah and the TB30 is $2k, I'm looking at probably close to $2.5k for the TB60....

It's a stupid, fortunate problem to have but I'm building this studio using money that was given to me unexpectedly (life insurance) so my budget is open-ended enough to afford one AND stack a couple of oxycons - I'm just too inexperienced to know how to pick the right combination!

Side Note: GTT "official" leadtime on cheetah and lynx are end-of-Oct (

) but I might be able to get a used Lynx, after all!