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  #31  
Old 2017-07-04, 10:07am
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AVTrout AVTrout is offline
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I would be super irritated if someone stole my work, re-worked it, added some snappy doo dads and resold it as their own. THAT BEING SAID.... I've bought several tutorial that are for the same style bead. I like being able to that because I sometimes have a hard time following the directions, or it just isn't working for me the way the author said it should, or the other tutorial has better pics, or whatever the reason. I can think of 1 set of tutorials in particular that I purchased because I just couldn't grasp the technique.
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  #32  
Old 2017-07-08, 5:26pm
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Originally Posted by AVTrout View Post
I would be super irritated if someone stole my work, re-worked it, added some snappy doo dads and resold it as their own. THAT BEING SAID.... I've bought several tutorial that are for the same style bead. I like being able to that because I sometimes have a hard time following the directions, or it just isn't working for me the way the author said it should, or the other tutorial has better pics, or whatever the reason. I can think of 1 set of tutorials in particular that I purchased because I just couldn't grasp the technique.
I hear what you're saying and I understand that, not everyone is good at writing tutorials of taking photis. So to each his own. In this dnd if you know it's copied then that's your choice if you feel okay with that choice then so be it. It still doesn't make it right that it was copied. Personally if I didn't understand the tutorial I would clarify with the original writer as to how I can get better results, ask questions ask for.better photos, otherwise how are they to know there's an issue? But hey if you feel good supporting a thief, go for it, it's your choice.
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  #33  
Old 2017-07-08, 10:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sislonski View Post
I hear what you're saying and I understand that, not everyone is good at writing tutorials of taking photis. So to each his own. In this dnd if you know it's copied then that's your choice if you feel okay with that choice then so be it. It still doesn't make it right that it was copied. Personally if I didn't understand the tutorial I would clarify with the original writer as to how I can get better results, ask questions ask for.better photos, otherwise how are they to know there's an issue? But hey if you feel good supporting a thief, go for it, it's your choice.
I think that's extremely unfair. She wasn't supporting tutorial theft at all.
Fact of the matter: shards, pleating, implosions are all old technique. Very little is new. The "look" may be. I love your arrow. I love Naos fire opals. But it's manipulating the same technique into specific styles.

I think it's sucky trying to claim fire opals in any tutorial. I tweak when somebody teaches the baleen. But creasing a bit of silver glass before encasing isn't NEW.

I do understand that the end user may buy two written tutorials because one may be a copy cat but it's easier understood. It sucks but if all techniques are already invented, who really owns it? The one who can't teach it accurately, or the successful instructor?

Calling someone a thief for enjoying one thorough tut over an unclear tut is unfair.
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  #34  
Old 2017-07-09, 6:52am
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Originally Posted by SGA View Post
I think that's extremely unfair. She wasn't supporting tutorial theft at all.
Fact of the matter: shards, pleating, implosions are all old technique. Very little is new. The "look" may be. I love your arrow. I love Naos fire opals. But it's manipulating the same technique into specific styles.

I think it's sucky trying to claim fire opals in any tutorial. I tweak when somebody teaches the baleen. But creasing a bit of silver glass before encasing isn't NEW.

I do understand that the end user may buy two written tutorials because one may be a copy cat but it's easier understood. It sucks but if all techniques are already invented, who really owns it? The one who can't teach it accurately, or the successful instructor?

Calling someone a thief for enjoying one thorough tut over an unclear tut is unfair.
Well first of all I'm not claiming the use of shards as my own, never have, never will, that's a basic technique that's been used for ages. My tutorial is on how to create an arrowhead.

you're right the implosion is nothing new, nor shards, nor encasing creased silver glass. Never claimed it to be. I think the point is being missed by many. It's not about claiming ownership of a basic technique, it's about claiming ownership on the process/steps into how it's used/manipulated to create a particular look or bead design. That's what makes the difference. That's the point. Which you did mention. That IS the difference!

Copying the "process" of how that "particular style of bead design" was created is the point . There's a difference. By then copying that process of creating that particular "style/design" then adding a flower to it , taking a better picture or explaining it better doesn't make it "not copying"

But that's just me. To each his own. And if someone wants to support an artist who I (and many others) deem to be a thief,(and I'm sure others who don't), by purchasing that tutorial then that's their choice. If you don't know then don't worry about it. This thread is not about condemning anyone buying tutorials, it was started to condem an artist who copies.

I never called AVTrout a thief for enjoying one thoroughly written tutorial over an unclear one, so don't put words into my mouth.

That being said, yes it was unfair (not extremely but maybe slightly) to be harsh towards her about buying a copied tutorial. Maybe she didn't realize it's copied. But if she did then again that's her choice.

Basically purchasing a tutorial you feel or know is probably a copy is supporting one artist who is taking Money away from a fellow artist. If you can't get the concept ask the original writer.

I purchased Kerri Fuhr's dragonfly tutorial, it was well written, great photos. In my mind I can't see why another artist needed to rewrite Kerri's tutorial, it never needed to be copied or rewritten. So you wrote it a bit differently, you used maybe different colors, so it's a dragonfly and no one owns dragonflies in your mind, so that's okay? Give me an F'n break!
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Last edited by sislonski; 2017-07-09 at 7:29am.
  #35  
Old 2017-07-09, 9:12am
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well go to the cooking section of any book store........
ever hear the expression
more than one way to skin a cat.

you start by throwing a bomb " a friendly warning" no there is nothing friendly about it
be real
I get being angry about someone taking your idea but
people are still trying to build a better mouse trap.
and if they can
people will buy

you can't successfully shame someone who has no rudder. imo
  #36  
Old 2017-07-09, 11:11am
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Judith Billig Judith Billig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post

Go to your local parkes and look for a dragonfly, they're cool

😂🤣😂🤣😂



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  #37  
Old 2017-07-09, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
well go to the cooking section of any book store........
ever hear the expression
more than one way to skin a cat.

you start by throwing a bomb " a friendly warning" no there is nothing friendly about it
be real
I get being angry about someone taking your idea but
people are still trying to build a better mouse trap.
and if they can
people will buy

you can't successfully shame someone who has no rudder. imo
True, but have you read the posts at all? She does this over and over with tutorials and beads by just changing colors then touts it as 'her style' 'her technique'. As has been said many tuts have 'similar' or 'copies', petal beads, baleen...that's not the issue, it's that it's all the time.

This shouldn't be an argument at this point, if it were once, ok. Multiple times over the years to where many knew who this was about from the first vague posts is not ok.

She's not even ok with it or she wouldn't have locked down her fb from showing her beads unless you friend her. She shows other posts. =^..^=
  #38  
Old 2017-07-09, 2:44pm
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she has no shame
agree 100%
  #39  
Old 2017-07-09, 7:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sislonski View Post
Well first of all I'm not claiming the use of shards as my own, never have, never will, that's a basic technique that's been used for ages. My tutorial is on how to create an arrowhead.

you're right the implosion is nothing new, nor shards, nor encasing creased silver glass. Never claimed it to be. I think the point is being missed by many. It's not about claiming ownership of a basic technique, it's about claiming ownership on the process/steps into how it's used/manipulated to create a particular look or bead design. That's what makes the difference. That's the point. Which you did mention. That IS the difference!

Copying the "process" of how that "particular style of bead design" was created is the point . There's a difference. By then copying that process of creating that particular "style/design" then adding a flower to it , taking a better picture or explaining it better doesn't make it "not copying"

But that's just me. To each his own. And if someone wants to support an artist who I (and many others) deem to be a thief,(and I'm sure others who don't), by purchasing that tutorial then that's their choice. If you don't know then don't worry about it. This thread is not about condemning anyone buying tutorials, it was started to condem an artist who copies.

I never called AVTrout a thief for enjoying one thoroughly written tutorial over an unclear one, so don't put words into my mouth.

That being said, yes it was unfair (not extremely but maybe slightly) to be harsh towards her about buying a copied tutorial. Maybe she didn't realize it's copied. But if she did then again that's her choice.

Basically purchasing a tutorial you feel or know is probably a copy is supporting one artist who is taking Money away from a fellow artist. If you can't get the concept ask the original writer.

I purchased Kerri Fuhr's dragonfly tutorial, it was well written, great photos. In my mind I can't see why another artist needed to rewrite Kerri's tutorial, it never needed to be copied or rewritten. So you wrote it a bit differently, you used maybe different colors, so it's a dragonfly and no one owns dragonflies in your mind, so that's okay? Give me an F'n break!

I agree with your assessment of the tut writer in question. Kerri's tutorial is a very specific and yes, it's horrible it was copied. She does it consistently.

And if you want to say I'm putting words into your mouth, I'd appreciate it if you stop putting them into mine. I said nobody owns techniques. Although one may be associated with them, the technique becomes public domain over time because eventually everybody learns it. (Pleating and implosions) So buying a technique based tutorial is not necessarily theft support.

People *do* own style and a "look". The dragonfly tutorial is a perfect example. Raking dots tut (a technique, verrrry loose explanation here) and Kerri's application are two wildly different pdf's and it's impossible to recreate a method and explain it better than the original. There is only *one* way to make Kerri's dragonflies and she explained it thoroughly.



My point was that you accused Trout of supporting a thief when she didn't (that I saw) say WHO she purchased from or what tut she was referring to. It was a generic statement about standard techniques and why one person may prefer one technique tutorial over another. Technique. Not style.
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Last edited by SGA; 2017-07-09 at 7:10pm.
  #40  
Old 2017-07-09, 11:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGA View Post
I agree with your assessment of the tut writer in question. Kerri's tutorial is a very specific and yes, it's horrible it was copied. She does it consistently.

And if you want to say I'm putting words into your mouth, I'd appreciate it if you stop putting them into mine. I said nobody owns techniques. Although one may be associated with them, the technique becomes public domain over time because eventually everybody learns it. (Pleating and implosions) So buying a technique based tutorial is not necessarily theft support.

People *do* own style and a "look". The dragonfly tutorial is a perfect example. Raking dots tut (a technique, verrrry loose explanation here) and Kerri's application are two wildly different pdf's and it's impossible to recreate a method and explain it better than the original. There is only *one* way to make Kerri's dragonflies and she explained it thoroughly.



My point was that you accused Trout of supporting a thief when she didn't (that I saw) say WHO she purchased from or what tut she was referring to. It was a generic statement about standard techniques and why one person may prefer one technique tutorial over another. Technique. Not style.
Actually if you read her post she specifically says at the very beginning, "I have bought several tutorials that are for the same STYLE bead" however then she goes on to say "because she couldn't grasp the technique" tomato, tomatoe.
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  #41  
Old 2017-07-10, 7:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sislonski View Post
Actually if you read her post she specifically says at the very beginning, "I have bought several tutorials that are for the same STYLE bead" however then she goes on to say "because she couldn't grasp the technique" tomato, tomatoe.

I'll be honest. I have no idea who made the first petal bead. But I know at least three instructors who teach it. I have my preferred instructor but she may not be as well understood as another. But the two petal tutorials I know are very distinctive in appearance. You cannot confuse one for the other. But they teach the same.

Again... just because she said that and may have used the word style, does not mean she was supporting a thief.
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  #42  
Old 2017-07-10, 11:36am
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I'll add my name to the list of wanting a PM telling who we are talking about and what technique or techniques specifically? I have to admit I am not up on current tutorial offerings. I haven't bought one in years!
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  #43  
Old 2017-07-10, 11:59am
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I would like to know as well if possible. Thanks
  #44  
Old 2017-07-10, 12:10pm
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OMG, Ravenesque!
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  #45  
Old 2017-07-10, 4:23pm
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Will somebody please pm me the name? I'm thinking about putting some tutorials on my Christmas list and don't think I want to support this person.
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  #46  
Old 2017-07-10, 11:18pm
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I would really like to know who the copier is so I don't inadvertently buy one since I am still gathering information.
  #47  
Old 2017-07-10, 11:59pm
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It is sad that the tone of this thread is so hostile especially to newcomers to this forum, and especially so because the tutorial section is probably one of the main areas visitors to this site would head for first.

The rage and unrestrained want of town-square justice (despite a few moderating voices) is not healthy. Singling out one notable yet unnamed individual this way is lynching, those egging and cheering make it worse. There is no justification for that in any discussion forum. This is venomous bullying. Why can't the victims of plagiarism simply post a complaint in the offending tutorial thread and stake a prior claim, without rage or abusive language?

OP in particular comes across as having allowed anger to cloud over reasons, forget laws and courts, ignore anything that does not comply with her own moral framework, that is not cool, that is the birth of mob justice.

The subject is only related to tutorials, but the thread contains no tutorial. It is about ethics and thus belongs elsewhere.

And before anyone says "how dare a newbie with a few posts dare challenge this", please remember that post count does not represent anything beyond just that and only that.

Perhaps it is time to move this thread elsewhere and tone down the anger please. Bullying is never right or warranted.
  #48  
Old 2017-07-11, 2:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pswrd View Post
It is sad that the tone of this thread is so hostile especially to newcomers to this forum, and especially so because the tutorial section is probably one of the main areas visitors to this site would head for first.

The rage and unrestrained want of town-square justice (despite a few moderating voices) is not healthy. Singling out one notable yet unnamed individual this way is lynching, those egging and cheering make it worse. There is no justification for that in any discussion forum. This is venomous bullying. Why can't the victims of plagiarism simply post a complaint in the offending tutorial thread and stake a prior claim, without rage or abusive language?

OP in particular comes across as having allowed anger to cloud over reasons, forget laws and courts, ignore anything that does not comply with her own moral framework, that is not cool, that is the birth of mob justice.

The subject is only related to tutorials, but the thread contains no tutorial. It is about ethics and thus belongs elsewhere.

And before anyone says "how dare a newbie with a few posts dare challenge this", please remember that post count does not represent anything beyond just that and only that.

Perhaps it is time to move this thread elsewhere and tone down the anger please. Bullying is never right or warranted.
And yet you add to the comments with your own judgments and criticisms of others because it doesn't comply with your opinion or position? So that makes it okay for you and not for anyone else?
  • Those who feel they are victims of plagiarism do not simply post a complaint in the offending tutorial thread and stake a prior claim for fear of exactly what is happening here.

Sadly yes there is that mob mentality as there can be with certain topics, but there is also that underlying feeling that many artists in the community have felt for a long time but afraid to say out loud. Questioning whether what this particular artist (and perhaps others) is doing, is really okay or not. But afraid to speak out for fear of being judged or called a lynch mod.

Example: We had another artist in the community for a while who was scamming those in the community who have generous kind hearts, those who were not aware of her ways. Since I first joined the community in 2004 this artist was playing the victim card with her sad hard luck stories which seemed to happen all too often. A lot of artists would actually send her money, tools and supplies after feeling sorry for her.

I recall my first impressions of her (me being a newbie) which was "Wow! she sure has a lot of bad crap happen in her life" I mean, it was continuous non relenting. My first thought was, "she's either really stupid or really unlucky." After a few months the red flags started going off for me. A few months turned into a few years of constant hard luck stories. But I said nothing. Eventually I heard that people had been sending her money and tools and glass etc out of pity and she would then sometimes turn around and sell the tools for money.

It worked for her and if something works why quit? Twelve years later she was still doing it. Over the the years when anyone would question or challenge the truth of her stories or make constructive suggestions, people who felt sorry for her would defend her. She would cry bullying and her defenders would call everyone a lynch mob. It wasn't like she wasn't told privately, it wasn't like she wasn't told quietly. She was told, she was warned.

She would pout stomp her foot and disappear for a while, run out of money and come back into the community and start playing her little game again, catching newcomers with her her hard luck stories and get them to defend her anytime she was challenged. Finally the community had enough and stood up and spoke out against her loudly, basically outing her. And yet there were still those unknowing persons who called the community bullies and accused the community of having a mob mentality out to lynch her and accused us of being an angry group of artist.

Well sure, it certainly looked that way to those who didn't know what she was really up to. But what it really was, was the community standing up for each other and saying enough is enough. She could have stayed away or left quietly but she didn't. We could have also continued to sit back and say nothing and let her continue.

No one really ever wants to out anyone openly. But when someone has been warned or others have suggested or hinted, this is not okay and yet they keep coming back, there is a point when the community will stand up and agree with each other that this is putting a bad taste in their mouth, that this is morally not okay. You may see it as a lynch mob or bullying but others may see it from another point of view.

To each his own to decide which way they choose to see it.

Have I been unreasonably harsh at times? Sure.

Decide for yourself, educate yourself. Buy the tutorials you want, support whomever you want. Hate on me if you want, I don't care. My original post was not to condemn anyone buying tutorials (even though my frustration got the best of me and it came out that way, and for that I apologize), just as I would not condemn anyone who fell or falls for a scammer.
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  #49  
Old 2017-07-11, 6:17am
pswrd pswrd is offline
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Theft of tangible things is black and white almost all of the time. Plagiarism and theft of IP is the opposite but it inflicts the same degrees of harm. Most of the time, it is so grey and difficult even to persuade the one doing it that it has happened let alone prove it. It is painful and have ruined entire businesses and livelihoods (and will probably continue to do so). IP problems are just muddy.

I am at least as susceptible to being judgemental and blinkered as any other person, probably more so. I see the issues in this thread, and I do not need to be above them to point them out, and by pointing them out, there is no suggestion or claim that I am above it all. When it comes to anything to do with morality, I have to constantly remind myself that there is no absolute or worldwide standard. My adding to the thread here? I am not hinting at problems with any unnamed members. I have been pretty direct and have quite narrowly identified the issue with this thread. I hope there is no anger conveyed in my posts or worse hints of condemnation in their tone. The fact remains that mob justice in a forum is not healthy whether I post about it or not.

Good intentions too often turn out to hurt others. In this case, not "outing" has already ended up leading us to falsely suspect several members. How many of us had waded through the tutorial threads trying to figure it out and ended up wondering, is that the one, or may be this, or both. Worse still there is no way for anyone to defend their case. Anyone can just point fingers vaguely in a certain direction without ever risking anything, but for those who got dragged into the falsely accused hole without even knowing it.... For a newbie, whom is safe to buy from? Have I just done the wrong thing? Avoidance of "outing" is overall a much worse thing to do.

It would have been far more effective to post a genuinely friendly message in the thread of the offending tutorial. Openness is important in discussion boards, it is not outing someone. At least both sides can be heard. The faceless nature of forums makes it more prone to create mob justice and allow it to escalate without restrain.

Selfishly speaking, all this completely soured the atmosphere of this board for me. I spent too much time looking for a way to delete my registration because of this, and would have done so if I had found it. I had the prior benefit of having seen the friendly and generous nature (the real side) of this board. For a first time visitor, I can't imagine coming to the tutorial section and reading this as the first thread, and how I would feel about becoming part of it.

Plagiarism will always exist and it will always be grey most of the time. A newbie went to a beginners fusing class, had an idea she wanted to implement. She asked the instructor who helped her to make it but it was not too successful. A month later, the exact design was in a gallery for sale in town, and this is now taught as a special lesson, without acknowledgement. When asked the instructor insisted that since the beginner did not have the skills to make it, there was no plagiarism and the other students agreed. Besides, who would have believed a beginner anyway against a known name. The newbie felt violated but had to just accept that there was no way she could have made that piece right then. Is there an absolute right or wrong side here?

I have plenty of far worse and life destroying examples. Lawyers can paint every case in black and white perhaps because they have to, but IP is never that.

Last edited by pswrd; 2017-07-11 at 8:42am.
  #50  
Old 2017-07-11, 8:09am
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Default My half cent added

First of all I don't have 2 cents to add only half a cent. I don't buy tutorials for one too costly for most and it use to be lampwork artists were giving years before and just told those who ask how to do these things ......

Also I think about all the grand lovely cook books I have bought ya I know basically the same thing only a tutorial is a cook book about lampworking LOL
Anyway if the copyright law were enforced on cook books like most are chipping about here on tutorials there would only be a 100 or so cook books printed; as who ever wrote and printed that first cook book with that recipe they would have all the rights to that recipe and no one else could put that recipe in any other cook book and I love all the different cook books I have and yes some of the recipes are the same from one book to another. Yes I have found the same recipe for a dish in two different cook books by different authors.

Now no I am not trying to make a living on my lampworking could I maybe at one time but due my health makes it so I can't now. Would I have sold a tutorial no. Why you ask one basic reason anything I could make that no one else I have seen make and I wanted to make money ( a living on ) I would not in anyway tell someone even if I made some more money telling someone how; NO WAY because once I tell how I make something; I see it as giving up my rights as to how it is done. Once the how is out there it is up for grabs!!!
With all the how to's out there; more than one versions of these could be out there .
With all the problems in the world after PMing someone about their "NO no"
and getting no where let Karma take over; You yourself most likely will not see the effect of their Karma but it will happen in time. It may or may not be what you think should happen but it will happen three fold over.; and in the end you will be a better person for it and your Karma will be good.
So ending this....... LIFE itself, everyone's life is way too short to carry on about another person what they did wrong, or bad, or as a no no.
Skip it let it go and get on with your lives cause all you are doing is making yourselves upset inside and life is too short !!!
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  #51  
Old 2017-07-11, 11:05am
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There are two dragonfly tutorials here.

Compare date marks.

That's your answer.
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  #52  
Old 2017-07-12, 12:39am
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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^^

Rage and abusive language?

I'm surprised it's been this quiet about her for this long honestly. This may be the quietest and slowest "lynching" ever on this forum.
  #53  
Old 2017-07-12, 9:36am
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more like high horse and finger in air
  #54  
Old 2017-07-12, 3:54pm
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Would someone pm me the name of this person? TIA
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  #55  
Old 2017-07-17, 1:56am
ekoocma ekoocma is offline
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I just wandered into this thread and find it somewhat off-putting. I thought this was a group of people who were passionate about melting glass, as I am but realize that this is a group of folks who are cutthroat and rabidly possessive of their "ideas". I guess I won't make any effort to purchase tutorials as I'm not going to study all the history to find out who wrote the "original" version of a tutorial to ensure that I didn't misstep and cut someone out of their $$. Glad to say I purchased "Passing the Flame" and one other book and that's as far as that's going. I do watch some of the things from Corning Glass - is that going to cause anyone to have vile attacks? I hope not, no intention of "stealing" anyone's thunder.
  #56  
Old 2017-07-17, 6:21am
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Beadz Gone Wild Beadz Gone Wild is offline
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Who are we talking about? Would like to know. PM me and thanks.
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  #57  
Old 2017-07-17, 3:03pm
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DarleenMB DarleenMB is offline
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OK clueless in Wyoming here. Can someone please PM me and lmk who this person is?

And to add to the convo, when I first started making beads way back when I couldn't stop thinking of "new" design ideas. Imagine my distress to discover shortly thereafter that they'd all be done before by others. Oh well. Nothing really new under the sun. We all learn from each other and I don't know about anyone else but anytime I have tried to copy a technique I wind up with something completely different.
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  #58  
Old 2017-07-18, 11:56am
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There is a difference between learning a technique - which we all do, even attempting to make a similar bead and blatantly copying someone's signature style and then taking it one step further and deciding to undercut the first person who has written the original tutorial by making a tutorial that copies the original. also the individual in question has done this multiple times. She is Consciously choosing to rip other artists off.

i am sorry those of you who are upset do not see that difference.
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  #59  
Old 2017-07-19, 2:34pm
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Add me to the list of wanting a pm to know who the offender is... please and thanks.

Sue
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  #60  
Old 2017-07-21, 2:00am
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All of you wanting to know who it is, the answer is in this thread and has been mentioned a few times.
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