Stringerwork on Frit

schoy · #1 2011-10-03, 9:12pm

Hi,

I was wondering, if I made a base bead (COE 104) and added some frit (COE 96), would it be alright to add some decoration/stringerwork (COE 104) on top?

Thanks!

SharonP · #2 2011-10-03, 11:00pm

I tried that once and got little hairline cracks. I know you can use small amounts of 96 over a mass of 104, but I don't think it works in the opposite direction very well.

Damselfly · #3 2011-10-03, 11:39pm

There is frit out there that's 104 coe, and then you wouldn't have any problems.

Starrr · #4 2011-10-03, 11:46pm

I do it all of the time, stringers, dots. I also encase 96 frit with 104 clear with no problems, been doing it for years.

rainygrrl · #5 2011-10-04, 8:13am

I also haven't had a problem doing stringerwork and occasionally encasing. My annealing schedule is conservative, so that might help.

LarryC · #6 2011-10-04, 9:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainygrrl

I also haven't had a problem doing stringerwork and occasionally encasing. My annealing schedule is conservative, so that might help.

Truth is Annealing will do nothing to fix compatibility problems if they exist. Two completely different issues.

AutEvDesigns · #7 2011-10-04, 9:32am

When I mixed COEs like that sometimes I'd get hairline cracks (and not-so hairline cracks) and sometimes I wouldn't. If you're making them to sell ... I dunno. I started buying COE 96 rods so I wouldn't have to worry about it (glasscolor.com or hotglasscolor.com).

EchoTantuli · #8 2011-10-04, 10:19am

I also have done this quite a bit as well with no problems persay. The one issue you may find is that the 104 you add over the 96 frit may likely be affected by it. The furnace glass will show it's dominance in colors, or effect alot of the time, so what you thought it would look like, may not be what you get. Do small test beads to see how the colors react to each other so you don't find out after a long day of work that it wasn't what you were looking for.
-Echo

Lisi · #9 2011-10-04, 11:33am

I've been doing it for nine years and never had any problems. But I only use #0 or #00 frit on 104, some light stringer work over that, and I don't encase.

SuzyQ · #10 2011-10-04, 11:39am

There are definitely some combinations that work. One of my favorite tricks to make melted in stringer shrivel up into tiny lines is to use raku powder as the frit.

rainygrrl · #11 2011-10-04, 8:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryC

Truth is Annealing will do nothing to fix compatibility problems if they exist. Two completely different issues.

Well, that makes sense. Thanks Larry! So I guess I don't know why it seems to work for me...

Ravenesque · #12 2011-10-05, 12:50am

No issues here.

Figure all the beads out there that are 104 base, frit, florals/other over that, or encased frit beads. You could hit the gallery and hit tons of examples.
And yes there is 104 frit but not that many different blends.

Of course there are combos that won't ever work, sometimes even the same coe lol!

Dragonharper · #13 2011-10-05, 8:44am

To me, and my limited experience, this just seems like asking for trouble. IF the COE's are incompatible then they are incompatible. Just because the stress doesn't cause breakage does not mean it's not there. Personally I would not take the risk, but I work for an insurance company...

LarryC · #14 2011-10-05, 9:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonharper

To me, and my limited experience, this just seems like asking for trouble. IF the COE's are incompatible then they are incompatible. Just because the stress doesn't cause breakage does not mean it's not there. Personally I would not take the risk, but I work for an insurance company...

Best advice in the whole thread, Roy. Take pride in the work and make it the best you can.

Lisi · #15 2011-10-05, 6:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonharper

To me, and my limited experience, this just seems like asking for trouble. IF the COE's are incompatible then they are incompatible. Just because the stress doesn't cause breakage does not mean it's not there. Personally I would not take the risk, but I work for an insurance company...

I'm very careful with the risks I take, and that's why I use certain furnace glass frits that contain lead because they play well with 104 if used in small amounts on the surface. Some of these original beads I still have and it's been nine years and no breakage. Some were even batch annealed after cooling in a fiber blanket, so at least those should have broken by now.

Ravenesque · #16 2011-10-06, 1:41am

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I know you should not use too much 96 and be careful mixing COE's but...

So all these gadjillion photos you see of 104 base/96 frit/104 decoration or stringer for pretty much almost a decade that I've seen before I even started to melt are not ok?

The sellers of frit showing encased/not encased.

And most say it's 104 base, blahblah's frit (which are 96), effetre clear (example)

This one thread alone has tons, I see 104 base/frit/florals etc
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=63362
-again yes some frit is 104 or they are using 96 base with 96 frit but honestly that's a rarity more than a majority.

Kevan · #17 2011-10-06, 1:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenesque

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I know you should not use too much 96 and be careful mixing COE's but...

So all these gadjillion photos you see of 104 base/96 frit/104 decoration or stringer for pretty much almost a decade that I've seen before I even started to melt are not ok?

The sellers of frit showing encased/not encased.

And most say it's 104 base, blahblah's frit (which are 96), effetre clear (example)

This one thread alone has tons, I see 104 base/frit/florals etc
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=63362
-again yes some frit is 104 or they are using 96 base with 96 frit but honestly that's a rarity more than a majority.

Yeah, I'm with you.

Dragonharper · #18 2011-10-06, 6:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonharper

...Just because the stress doesn't cause breakage does not mean it's not there...

I'm sure there are a lot of factors here. How well the frit is melted in is probably a big one. The less it's melted in the steeper the COE gradient is going to be, the more stress. Kind of like puntying a COE96 rod to a COE104 rod, that is an extreme case as it is a cold seal but you get the point. I am reasonably sure that if your took an a Boro rod and a Effetre rod melted them together and then did a thorough mixing you would not have any breakage, as the COE would be consistent through out the mix.

Just because it doesn't break does not mean there is not stress in the final product. The stress may be small enough to never matter, but how do you tell?

ETA:
Polariscopes work but not so well on opaque glass.

LarryC · #19 2011-10-06, 8:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenesque

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

Yeah...I know that feeling. If we set aside all of the material science that says not to mix materials with differing COEs and just look at what others in the glass world are doing, Beadmaking is the only area that I am aware of that says it is OK to mix. Is there some kind of magic involved? I dont think so. What we have to keep in mind is that even within families of COE there is a tolerance or variation attached to the nominal COE number. I suspect this means that if, for instance, you choose a 96 that is a bit high and a 104 that is a bit low then you may produce a stressy bead that can survive for some period of time. Maybe not indefinitely. Anyone who has blown glass for a while has probably shared the experience of mixing COEs or even not properly annealing a piece and having it shatter in the dishwasher years later. Glass can be a very cruel and unforgiving material

Also keep in mind that manufacturers have lot to lot variations as well so that what works today may not work tomorrow. Based on my knowledge of the material this picture is accurate but it is actually a gross simplification. As others have said there are many other variables such as temperature and time worked in the flame that contribute to the end result as well.

Please understand that I am not trying to upset folks with this discussion but I do believe that we have a responsibility to post it as we see it. The archives live on long after we leave the board and we need to be careful of what info we leave for the next generation of LE'ers.

DeevaaS · #20 2011-10-06, 9:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonharper

Just because the stress doesn't cause breakage does not mean it's not there.

I am very new to this and want to know - if the stress doesn't cause cracks or breakage, do we care that it is there?

rainygrrl · #21 2011-10-06, 10:05am

IMO, I would not care if there's never any cracking. However, just because it doesn't happen in the first day or week or year doesn't mean never. I once gave a short presentation about annealing in a public speaking class (still hate that!!), and the instructor said it solved a mystery for her. She had purchased a small sculpture in Murano, I think, and 10 or 12 years later it just exploded in hot sunlight. So it can happen long after an object is made.

As Larry said, it is weird that we can get away at all with combining different COEs in lampworking. It probably is magic.

LarryC · #22 2011-10-06, 10:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeevaaS

I am very new to this and want to know - if the stress doesn't cause cracks or breakage, do we care that it is there?

I do because I know that it MAY in the future based on my direct experience. Do you care? That is something only you may answer

merigypsy · #23 2011-10-06, 10:13am

We did a test in Kristina Logan class to show imcompatibility. Taking 2 rods, one of a cim color and a effetre color. Then making a twistie. Then after pulling it had a slight bow/arch. We were all surprised at this! When we did one of the same glass company it came out straight. I think the more incompatible it may arch more and of course, break.
The cim color was probably one of the colors that needed to be annealed at the higher degree- there are some of the cim colors that need a higher annealing temp than other 104 colors.

So my point is just that they can be mixed but even within glass of the same coe range it is wise to be cautious. (I do mix 104 manufacturers & use frits of 96 etc, just cautious).

Dragonharper · #24 2011-10-06, 11:58am

Before I got into glass working, I got a lava lamp for Christmas. A week or so later I received a recall notice saying that there was internal stress in the glass and that it might break. I disregarded it. About a month later the thing exploded and spewed stuff all over the living room. Our wall still looks gruesome, it was a red lava lamp, that taught me about hidden stress in glass. I have a small polariscope that I got when a local vacuum tube manufacturer went out of business. It sits on my work bench and every marble out of the kiln that is even slightly transparent goes through it. I even check my rods before sticking in the flame, helps to avoid sudden pop offs. The thing is that stressed glass looks exactly like unstressed glass, to the naked eye. I don't want my creations to explode because the sun happens to shine on them and the room is chilly.

It's bad enough that certain colors of the same COE aren't compatible, I just don't want to add any more variables than I need to. You and you alone need to feel comfortable with the amount of risk you take for your art.

LarryC · #25 2011-10-06, 12:50pm

Roy, does your polariscope have a scale for direct measurements? I am a closet tool geek and I am jealous

I use two sheets of polarized film but it doesnt allow relative measurements.

Ravenesque · #26 2011-10-07, 1:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by merigypsy

We did a test in Kristina Logan class to show imcompatibility. Taking 2 rods, one of a cim color and a effetre color. Then making a twistie. Then after pulling it had a slight bow/arch. We were all surprised at this! When we did one of the same glass company it came out straight. I think the more incompatible it may arch more and of course, break.
The cim color was probably one of the colors that needed to be annealed at the higher degree- there are some of the cim colors that need a higher annealing temp than other 104 colors.

So my point is just that they can be mixed but even within glass of the same coe range it is wise to be cautious. (I do mix 104 manufacturers & use frits of 96 etc, just cautious).

Yeah that's just it, it's all basically experiments we are doing.
And like I said also some of the same COE can have issues. I don't remember what color it was but one effetre color could not be sold because it was incompatible with itself. Or some just don't play with their own kind like the ASK clear, and the batch of clear Lauscha years ago.

I don't know, I'm tired.. but seeing SO many beads done like this for many many years including quite a lot that I've done with no issues, I would think if it were a problem we would know and not keep doing this as people would say 'what the feck is going on?'

Dragonharper · #27 2011-10-07, 4:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryC

Roy, does your polariscope have a scale for direct measurements? I am a closet tool geek and I am jealous

I use two sheets of polarized film but it doesnt allow relative measurements.

That's basically what my polariscope is, two sheets of polarized film and a light bulb. It's just built by a machinist who could drill holes exactly where he wanted them. Oh, and it's got that cool silver grey industrial texture paint. You can see the stress but you need to use your own judgement as to how bad it is. I'm learning by checking my rods before introducing them to a flame. It's pretty easy to tell if it's going to pop off or not. For final product, if I see a rainbow, back into the kiln it goes.

pierces*designs · #28 2011-10-07, 4:11am

You will have the best best if the frit is leaded. Many of the iris and very saturated colors, and raku have lead. That allows the glass to be more able to conform to the stress. I can't remember all the technical reasons.

LarryC · #29 2011-10-07, 6:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenesque

I don't know, I'm tired.. but seeing SO many beads done like this for many many years including quite a lot that I've done with no issues, I would think if it were a problem we would know and not keep doing this as people would say 'what the feck is going on?'

I am also tired and I think we have beat this one to death already. The three folks who have posted with problems here must be the exceptions

Shrimp · #30 2011-10-07, 8:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainygrrl

However, just because it doesn't happen in the first day or week or year doesn't mean never. I once gave a short presentation about annealing in a public speaking class (still hate that!!), and the instructor said it solved a mystery for her. She had purchased a small sculpture in Murano, I think, and 10 or 12 years later it just exploded in hot sunlight. So it can happen long after an object is made!

It is amazing that this happens. My son was holding a pendant that he had made the other day. While it was in the palm of his hand, it burst with so much force that it sliced his hand open.