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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips |
2012-06-25, 6:40am
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ALWAYS SMILES
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Join Date: Oct 13, 2011
Location: GreatLakesState
Posts: 433
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Master compatibility list?
Hi !
I was wondering if anything like this was available for purchase, or if there is a thread like this somewhere (can't find it if so)
I read a comment the other day here that a regular buyer of beads made regarding the fact that she has received broken beads on multiple occasions from even very well known beadmakers.......this has me incredibly spooked. Because I know that the beads in question must have been annealed....at least I am comfortable guessing so. If this can happen to really experienced beader's.....what about the rest of us without the decades of experience? The visual isn't too pleasant !
Thanks for any ideas....
K
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2012-06-25, 7:57am
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SCIENCE Teacher!
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Join Date: Jul 19, 2005
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In general, glass is considered compatible within 2 numbers. So 104 is compatible to 102 through 106. Most companies label their glass with a certain COE like 104 which usually means "kinda sorta around 104-ish". As far as I know Glass Alchemy is the only company to have accurate scientific testing methods for determining COE and they will tell you that COE is not really the only concern. Viscosity also plays a role, so that 2 glasses of exactly the same COE but considerably different viscosity may not play well together.
So most people use a kiln for annealing, and most kilns come pre-programmed these days. No peeking though, as that reintroduces stress if you open the kiln as the beads are cooling.
I have checked with Henry Grimmett, glass expert, and he agrees that it's OK to remove your soft glass beads at anything under 200 degrees, although he said under 300 should be fine, too. My logic was was 212 was boiling point for water and hot cars get up to nearly 200 degrees so glass beads should be able to take that much transition.
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2012-06-25, 11:04am
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maybe tomorrow
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Join Date: Jun 17, 2005
Location: Carmichael, CA
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I don't think you'll ever find this info all in one place.
With new glass colors coming out regularly, there's just no way to test every combination. Even using the same colors together can lead to different results, depending on whether you are layering colors, or mixing them, and how much you use of each. And now people are adding all sorts of things to their beads. Every time you add frit, leaf and foil, wire, little bits of metals, sand, etc... you change the game.
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2012-06-25, 1:17pm
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The COE is certainly a primary consideration but there are also other issues. All of the glasses listed within a particular COE are not always spot on the number, it's a best estimate. There is also the matter of viscosity of the glass even within the coefficient of expansion range. Some glasses simply do not work well together or don't work at all when encased. Reds and yellows are among the worst players when it comes to encasing and we try to avoid any of the coral colors when making complex murrini as they almost always crack. A lot of it has to be learned the hard way or from other people who have already done it that way.
Robert
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2012-06-25, 2:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons
The COE is certainly a primary consideration but there are also other issues. All of the glasses listed within a particular COE are not always spot on the number, it's a best estimate. There is also the matter of viscosity of the glass even within the coefficient of expansion range. Some glasses simply do not work well together or don't work at all when encased. Reds and yellows are among the worst players when it comes to encasing and we try to avoid any of the coral colors when making complex murrini as they almost always crack. A lot of it has to be learned the hard way or from other people who have already done it that way.
Robert
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Opaque Red, Yellows, and Oranges are typically problematic but I have been having no problems with any of Gaffer's versions.
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2012-06-25, 2:19pm
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Also rods vary from batch to batch...
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2012-06-25, 2:41pm
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Glass Hive Kiln Tech.
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... and this is why glass is an art rather than just a science.
I understand the concern you are having. Beads do break. Great artist and up and coming alike suffer the wrath. Most customers understand the nature of the game and are happy with refunds or replacements. Don't sweat it too much. Even flame chemistry can contribute to a color not playing well. Learn from the colors that don't cooperate for you and take notes. Anneal properly and do your best. I make it a point to figure out the pesky ones so I know how and when to use them.
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2012-06-25, 4:19pm
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I would also recommend caution when casing BE's pinks and purples with neo-lavender. It's temperamental.
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2012-06-25, 6:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC
Opaque Red, Yellows, and Oranges are typically problematic but I have been having no problems with any of Gaffer's versions.
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Thanks Larry, that's a very useful bit of information.
Robert
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2012-06-25, 8:38pm
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Formerly FishBulb
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I've had issues with various CIM colours and have heard of others having problems too. They may need a higher annealing temp.
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2012-06-25, 8:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons
Thanks Larry, that's a very useful bit of information.
Robert
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For my furnace work I try to stay within their line if possible. They claim 100% compatibility within their family of color.
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2012-06-27, 9:35am
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Bullseye has THE most rigorous testing of any company in the Portland area... FWIW
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2012-06-27, 10:17am
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off topic, but i love that sig, Firebrand! it's something my high school chem teacher used to say (or something like it) and i haven't heard it used since.
thanks for the walk down memory lane
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2012-06-28, 2:46am
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ALWAYS SMILES
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Great info ,taking notes, thanks to all who responded......even though I did not get the answer I was hoping for (like a perfect chart describing all of the color combos and possible issues) I understand now. Too many variable possibilities.
HOWEVER,I bet if one were to compile such a list based on experiences from lots of people....I would not be the only one in line to purchase it !
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2012-06-28, 5:45pm
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dances with ideas...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishBulb
I've had issues with various CIM colours and have heard of others having problems too. They may need a higher annealing temp.
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I've heard of this too, but I've never had any issues with a regular annealing temp but a very conservative schedule. Several beads have been fine for several years now. So, I agree--there are very many sources of variability!
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