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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions. |
2011-12-08, 7:30am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 05, 2006
Location: Southern California
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pulling points vs. blow tubes- NOT a debate question
Searching the interwebs, I have come across some spirited debates about the merits of pulling points vs. blow tubes. People are very passionate about which they use and why. Something I haven't been able to parse from the discussions, though is WHAT points/blow tubes are for. This is because everyone in the discussions already knows what they are for and it doesn't come up. It's something so obvious to them, it isn't elaborated on. So, what exactly are these used for? Are they like punties or do they actually become part of/whole of the product? Are they used only for hollow items or for solid stuff like implosion pendants and marbles, too?
Don't go into crazy detail if you don't feel like it.
I am getting books and vids for xmas, so these questions won't last forever, I promise. There is light at the end of the tunnel
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2011-12-08, 7:57am
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Marbles, dude, Marbles
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You can make a marble or a pendant by using either a solid rod or a tube. If you use a solid rod you make a maria and compress the dots and/or lines that you put on it. If you use a tube, you close off one end of the tube and blow a bubble on that end of the tube. You decorate the bubble with dots and/or lines and slowly heat the bubble to condense it. As the bubble condenses the dots/lines implode into the wall of the bubble, which gets thicker as it gets condensed down. You want to condense that bubble down into the tube so that the bubble doesn't exist anymore. Now you remove the tube from the condensed down bubble and you are left with a disk, that has your dots/lines imploded into it. Put a top and/or bottom onto the disk, round it out and you have a marble.
The designs and patterns that you can get with a tube vs. a rod are usually VERY different.
To blow a bubble at the end of the tube you have to put your mouth onto the other end of the tube and blow, while constantly rotating the tube to keep the bubble round and centered on the tube. The easiest way to blow the bubble is to have a 'straw' centered on the end of the tube. So, do you get that 'straw' on the end of the tube by attaching a blowpipe to the end of the tube, or by pulling a point? Thus there is a debate!
This is how I see it. I'm sure you will get a whole bunch more responses on this topic.
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2011-12-08, 9:09am
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Senior Member
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Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply! Now, if you have a blowhose assembly/swivel, is the point moot?
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2011-12-08, 9:49am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Mar 27, 2011
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Hello kokeshikitten
I am new to all this too and think I know the difference between points and blow tubes and maybe in newbie terms. If i am wrong i am sure someone will pop in and set me strait.
first the reason for either is two reduce the diameter of the tube your working either for easy of handling or to attach blow-hose assembly/swivel.
1. A point simple is heating a section in the middle of the tube most say at lest 2 time the diameter of the tubing your using and when it get soupy you pull it out to the diameter you want. the hard and important part that i have not mastered is keeping it center.
2. blow tubes you heat the end of the bigger tube and as it closes when it get smaller near the size of the tube you want you attach it to the small tube that you want to use as a handle- blow tube that you can attach your blow-hose if you want. And the hard and important part that i have not mastered is keeping it center.
Sorry the only blow tube i had to take a picture of was used on a amber goblet type thing again newbie.
And as you know there are pluses to both.
Hope this help or if not inspire someone else to give you a better answer.
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2011-12-08, 9:55am
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Senior Member
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That helps a lot, mightymike! Thanks!!
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2011-12-08, 9:58am
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Borovangelist
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Join Date: Jan 26, 2007
Location: Auburn, MA
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If you have the time, have a look at TimiaGlass's channel on youtube. He's generously put up a LOT of demo's on basic and a few not so basic things:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TimiaGlass
FWIW, I like points over blow tubes because I hate doing the welds, but they both have their time and place.
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2011-12-08, 10:04am
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senior citizen lampworker
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Sulphur Springs, TX (near Dallas)
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here is my 2 cents
first is a graphic of a point
The second is a graphic of a blowpipe
both can be used with blow hose assembly
The blow pipes are usually made of stainless steel
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2011-12-08, 10:05am
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Senior Member
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Kokeshikitten
As you stated there are probably more passionate opinions about what each is used for but I don't consider myself to be one of those people.
I have used both and the only opinion I have on the difference is based on how we used them in class.
I took a chandelier class last year. We pulled points almost the whole time using 25 mm tubing and then blew those points out into balls for our chandeliers. After you have pulled say 10 - 12 points from one piece of tubing, there is ultimately a 1 or 2 inch piece left at both ends of the tube. Glassdog's pic on the left is a good example except the small open tapered end would normally be closed from your last point pull.
Its too short to try to pull a point from the open end and it takes a long time to try to get the open end to close up so that you can use the tapered end as a blow pipe to blow the bubble out. In addition, when you try to close up the large open end, you end up with a lot of extra glass at the end after its sealed up causing an uneven bubble.
In this case, we used a 12 mm blow tube and then sealed the open 25 mm end of tubing to the 12 mm blow tube by letting the 25 mm tubing reduce down in diameter until it matched the 12mm tubing. You can also enlarge the 12 mm tubing at the same time with a graphite reamer to meet the 25 mm tubing somehwere in the middle in terms of diameter. That then gives you a good working end to blow out another ball or hollow shape. That saves from wasting the ends of the tubes. I am sure there are other uses but this is how we used them and I still use that technique today.
In this case we used tubing and called it a blowpipe but as Glassdog stated, most blowpipes are stainless steel. My personal opinion is that the blowpipe was a tool used in glassblowing that transitioned into the lampworking community. Blowpipes in glassblowing are normally around 4 - 5 feet long. The ones that have been created in lampworking are typically much shorter in length.
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2011-12-08, 11:02pm
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Pyromaniac
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Join Date: Jun 27, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassdog
The blow pipes are usually made of stainless steel
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A lot of people just use small diameter med or heavy wall boro tubing and flare the end rather than work off of a steel blowpipe. Most people I have seen use glass, as a matter of fact, not that it's necessarily a representative sample.
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2011-12-09, 6:41pm
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Kobuki & DIY Homefill Sys
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Join Date: Apr 30, 2009
Location: socal
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glass blow tubes (12 x 2) because I don't like the idea of wasting large diameter tubing by pulling down and ultimately thorwing them away.
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2011-12-09, 9:16pm
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Borovangelist
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Join Date: Jan 26, 2007
Location: Auburn, MA
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I put a loop on some of my point handles and call 'em icicles.
I've also made pens out of them. I occasionally use them as pipettes for putting drops of water on a jackline, sometimes you can close up an end, add some color and blow it out as an ornament or vessel.
It's not a total loss.
Now having a stick stack go bad and losing half a pound of color, that's a loss.
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2011-12-10, 6:01am
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Run Free Sweet Boy
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for me, it all depends pn what I am making as to wether I pull points or use a blow tube.
if I am doing small things like ornaments etc I pull points, if I need to flare something out, I pull points. points and blow tubes are basically hollow handles you can blow through when making hollow objects.
I was trained very old school over 30 years ago and I pulled points for everything. Some reasons I like pulled points are..... you can spin the work much faster will a pulled point because it is thinner. This makes flaring a foot, vase top, goblet much easier for me, because with the speed comes centrifical force and that is actually your flaring tool, and you often dont need to use a graphite rod at all, and thus have no tool marks on your work. I also like pulled points for smaller work because I can make full rotations of the object with less work and movement of my fingers, I find it easier to keep even heat, and my hands dont get as tired.
When I like blow tubes is... if I am working large diameter tubing, something over 35 mm. Or if I have extremly expensive tubing and dont want to waste any of the glass by puling points with it. Then I simply attach a blow tube after tapering down the tube end with a paddle. If I am working really big and heavy then blow tubes are also really strong. With Blow tubes you can also attach a blow hose securely. This can be nice when working big, because you can make longer handles, longer than would easily be reached to your mouth to blow through, thus keeping more heat off your hands.
pulled points and blow tubes very rarely end up as part f the finished work and are removed.
But still.. given my druthers... I would still rather use pulled points than a blow tube, because I am just better with that method. I think argueing over which is right and which is better is wasted breath.. its a really good idea to be proficient with both methods and use the method that is best for the project in mind.
I know a lot of pipe makers use only the blow tube method, and in a way it suits the style of work well.. they are working thick glass, and the splash of heat near the end of thick tubing and heavy boro, would melt pulled points if they were not also very thick. So a blow tube makes sense, it suits the project.
I tend to blow very light and thin work and heavy clunky blow tubes would not suit that style well....
so, learn it all is my motto, it makes you a better glassblower in the end with more tricks and tools in your glassblowers chest.
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2011-12-10, 10:11am
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I like how you explain both methods Patienthand and I agree with you a person should know both methods. I started out with pulled points and I then learned how to use a blow hose. I do prefer the blow hose as I can see the piece better from all angles. I am partially blind in one eye so when I use the blow hose the lack of depth perception is not such a hindrance.
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2011-12-10, 11:03am
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Borosapien
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2011-12-10, 12:28pm
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Always learnin' & yearnin
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I would love to have a blow hose!
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2011-12-10, 3:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonlite
I would love to have a blow hose!
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I dont work without one. Kinda like a third hand. All of my work in the hotshop is done with one and most on the torch as well. Best tool I have. Can you tell I kinda like them?
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2011-12-10, 3:33pm
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Run Free Sweet Boy
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I spent so many years with a blow hose in my mouth all day I have a permanent gap between 2 bottom teeth. I did neon signs as my bread and butter and its all done with a blow hose. I even use to make spit traps on my mouth pieces, and for anyone else in the shop as well. Blow hoses rock. For neon signs we could use a fairly small and light weight hose, but for bigger work you need a bigger hose, or you end up with back pressure on your work and it blows itself up when you dont want it to.. make sure you get the right size swivel and hose for the work you want to do.
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2011-12-10, 4:06pm
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Always learnin' & yearnin
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I still want a blow hose...lol
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2011-12-10, 4:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patienthand
I spent so many years with a blow hose in my mouth all day I have a permanent gap between 2 bottom teeth. I did neon signs as my bread and butter and its all done with a blow hose. I even use to make spit traps on my mouth pieces, and for anyone else in the shop as well. Blow hoses rock. For neon signs we could use a fairly small and light weight hose, but for bigger work you need a bigger hose, or you end up with back pressure on your work and it blows itself up when you dont want it to.. make sure you get the right size swivel and hose for the work you want to do.
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I build my own. Got the parts I use now from DACO Neon before they closed down. Their swivels are the best.
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2011-12-10, 4:47pm
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Run Free Sweet Boy
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My swivels are mostly from my neon days, I have the small swivel I used for neon and the bigger one I think 1/4 inch for bigger blown work. I also have a pluro stopper and straight swivel for my lathe. But I dont use the swivel for most things, like ornaments and vases and bells etc, goblet tops, mostly for bigger work, and I dont do much of that these days.. but I am in the mood to do blown work.. maybe after thi8ngs settle down in a week or two.
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2011-12-10, 9:21pm
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Always learnin' & yearnin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryC
I build my own. Got the parts I use now from DACO Neon before they closed down. Their swivels are the best.
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how do you build your own?
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2011-12-10, 9:37pm
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"Sinners have soul too"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patienthand
My swivels are mostly from my neon days, I have the small swivel I used for neon and the bigger one I think 1/4 inch for bigger blown work. I also have a pluro stopper and straight swivel for my lathe. But I dont use the swivel for most things, like ornaments and vases and bells etc, goblet tops, mostly for bigger work, and I dont do much of that these days.. but I am in the mood to do blown work.. maybe after thi8ngs settle down in a week or two.
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Can I come play at your shop? You are awesome!
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2011-12-11, 6:43am
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Run Free Sweet Boy
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Join Date: Jan 29, 2008
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if you can get here, come and play.... I am set up for 2
to "build your own" swivel assembly,, you buy a swivel of your choice, and hose of the correct size to fit the swivel, and a mouth piece.... no biggie
swivels come in straight and 90 degrees. For bench work I use a 90 degree and for the lathe and straight one
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2011-12-11, 6:47am
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Run Free Sweet Boy
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Join Date: Jan 29, 2008
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oh.. another tip for blow hoses.... keep some baby powder in the shop. When making neon I was forever burning my hose and its gets sticky because the hose are rubber. coat it with baby powdr and it solves the sticky hose issue.
the reason the neon blow hose kept getting burn was because you lay the work on the table after each bend to make it fit the pattern, and a 5 foot blow hose can often get a bit scorched
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2011-12-11, 9:55am
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonlite
how do you build your own?
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Buy parts...Put together Good swivels that rotate on both axis can be hard to find though. The place I was getting them from closed down last year. I use electrical clip covers as couplers to the pipe, plastic cigar mouthpieces, and rubber tubing.
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2011-12-11, 10:51am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Someone used to sell packages of 10 or 12 mouthpieces for a pretty reasonable price. Can't recall where I saw them, sorry. Some people use surgical tubing for the hose but I understand that silicone hose works much better and last much longer. I get silicone hose at the hobby store...they use it for fuel hose in the airplanes etc. about $1.25 per foot however.
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2011-12-11, 5:00pm
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Senior Member
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Here is a cool piece of equipment used for sugar blowing, I was thinking it might have some use for tiny blown stuff.
http://www.shopchefrubber.com/Sugar-...ouble-chamber/
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2011-12-11, 8:18pm
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Pyromaniac
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Two hundred dollars? For a glorified turkey baster?
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Chris Scala
Fortune Cookie say, "When things go wrong, don't go with them!"
Current Glass-Melting Apparatus:
GTT Lynx powered by 2 5 LPM Oxycons and
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2011-12-11, 8:21pm
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Borovangelist
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I've known of some boro folks that make their own mouth pieces out of glass. Just don't bite down
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-Tom
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2011-12-12, 6:15am
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Run Free Sweet Boy
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I made my mouthpieces out f0 glass for many many years, even put a spit trap in them... use 5mm tubing.. never broke one.... thats what made the gap in my teeth... the 5mm ones, but it also took like 20 years of working every day to do it
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