Recommend a good kiln for those who work "middle of the mandrel"...

[Bretta]

I'm shopping for a kiln and 95% sure I want a Regular Guy from Glass Hive. One of my biggest factors is finding a kiln that is deep enough for garaging work while working middle of the mandrel (and I use 12 inch mandrels). I know the Regular Guy isn't deep enough for sticking them straight in, but I felt it is wide enough to put my work in sideways. Does anyone have experience with this? I think I will be more inclined to batch anneal, but as I am new to annealing I don't know if that will be true or not.

If you work middle of the mandrel and garage your beads for annealing, which kiln do you have?

Thanks!

[PattyK]

Hi Bretta,

I work in the middle on 12 inch mandrels. I have an AIM 84BD and it works just fine. It's 8" deep.

[Signguy]

There is no way you can go wrong with a regular guy. Best kiln for the $$$ by far. Love mine. Love the support.

Call them and talk with Pam and she will help you figure out what is the best way to go. I just found out that they will even customize as needed for you...

[Bretta]

Thank you for the recommendation, Patty! I'm looking at those kilns since you like yours...my husband wants me to get 240 wiring on whatever kiln I get, so have to go up a couple of models in order to get 240, but it's still in the price range I was looking at.

I may give Pam a call at Glass Hive and see what they can do that is a tad deeper. I don't see a "Deep Guy" on their site...

[PattyK]

Good idea Bretta - I would love to have a kiln that wide but I like working in the middle of the mandrel too much to give that up. Please post what you find out!

[PittsGlass]

Originally Posted by Signguy

There is no way you can go wrong with a regular guy. Best kiln for the $$$ by far. Love mine. Love the support.

Call them and talk with Pam and she will help you figure out what is the best way to go. I just found out that they will even customize as needed for you...

We sure appreciate that Our job is to be available when you need us.

Originally Posted by Bretta

Thank you for the recommendation, Patty! I'm looking at those kilns since you like yours...my husband wants me to get 240 wiring on whatever kiln I get, so have to go up a couple of models in order to get 240, but it's still in the price range I was looking at.

I may give Pam a call at Glass Hive and see what they can do that is a tad deeper. I don't see a "Deep Guy" on their site...

Guess what? We DO make a Regular Deep Guy Here he is(elements can be in the roof on the non top loading guy)-





You can have him with or without the top loading feature or punti door. 240 is also an option. Here are the specs:

Regular Deep Guy:
Interior size: 11" deep x 18" wide x 4 1/2" tall
Exterior size including controller: 14" deep x 28" wide x 12" tall
Elements are in the roof of the kiln or in the side walls, your choice
Two 4" tall x 10" wide doors
4" deep x 20" wide mandrel rest/rod warming rest, with 1/4" mandrel gap at the bottom
Max Temp: 1700 F
110 volts 13 amps, Plugs into a standard household outlet
Available in 240 volt for an additional $50
Punti Door option is available for an additional $60 per door.

Regular Deep Top Loader:
Interior size: 11" deep x 18" wide x 7 1/2" tall
Exterior size including controller: 14" deep x 28" wide x 14" tall
Elements are in the walls of the kiln
Two 4" tall x 10" wide doors
One Lid Door the full width of the kilns chaimber
4" deep x 20" wide mandrel rest/rod warming rest, with 1/4" mandrel gap at the bottom
Max Temp: 1700 F
110 volts 13 amps, Plugs into a standard household outlet
Available in 240 volt for an additional $50
Punti Door option is available for an additional $60 per door.

It lost the formatting when I pasted, but it is easier to read near the bottom of this page: http://www.theglasshive.com/BEADANNEALERS.html

We can do a custom for you in 240v to suit your needs as well.

[Signguy]

So I'm thinking a regular, deep, tall guy with top load would be 'da bomb!

What if you changed the regular deep top load design to be 12-18" tall inside rather than 7".

Now you have a kiln ideal for beads, marbles, sculpture, etc. all from the same kiln...and with depth plus height plus width, a top door for big stuff and regular and puny doors for mandrels. Yikes!

Any idea what that would cost if you made it with the same materials and finish (aluminum) as the regular <grin> regular guy?

Could it still run off a 20 amp 120v circuit, or would it need more juice than that?

Thanks!

Erik

[PittsGlass]

That kiln would have to look more like this, but you could pick the color. This one is a bit larger, but size is easy to change.



Now the antenna, that was a fitting customization on Loco's kiln.


The aluminum cases cost a lot(read up to $300 for a kiln about the chamber size of the regular guy with slightly different measurements) when we ask our bender to do a computer set up for just one. They have to program the punch, bender and welding lines before any project starts. That is why we came up with a steel frame line that we can produce in house at more reasonable prices. I can run you a quote in this style if you'd like. Send an email to Michael@theglasshive.com, I try to get here daily, but sometimes I loose a thread or have a busy day.

[spixton]

I have one from Arrow Springs (AF1313-C). I LOVE it. I also have an Aim kiln, 8X8 inside measurement. Both work great for middle of the mandrel work on 12" mandrels.

The best part you don't have to ramp down. Finish for the day/night, wait a half hour or an hour and turn the kiln off. I learned this tip from Stephanie Sersich and Dustin Tabor who learned it from Beau and Sage. If those great bead makers don't ramp down, seems I don't need to.

I've done it that way for well over 5 years with no problems at all. I think it only works with kilns with thick brick sides/top and bottom.

[della]

I also have Arrow Springs brick kiln, had it since 1995, never, ever a problem. I also use MOM mandrels but I use 10 " mandrels because I don't like the cool end of the mandrel hanging out the firebrick door, I also turn it off and have never had a broken bead because of that.

[Bretta]

Thank you for responding here, Pam, and for the email as well! That looks like it would do the trick. Just gotta see if I have the $ for it!

Suzan, the 1313 is the other one I'm looking at. Around $800 is the max I want to spend.
When I took classes at John C Campbell Folk School in Brasstown, NC, they use the "turn the kiln off" at night method. When we came in the next morning the kilns were still at 200+ degrees.

[PittsGlass]

The Arrow Springs line are good kilns, and if you go that way, be sure get the digital controller. They are also subject to the same laws of thermodynamics. They do cool slowly, just like ours, but it is not even and controlled if you just turn it off. I have customers that just shut off our kilns with success as well, but it is still not what I like to see. I want both the kiln owner and their customers to get the most out of the product.

If your work stays small, does not play with varied C.O.E.'s in one piece, or colors that don't cooperate with each others viscosity, and are in a still room at a controlled temp you can get a way with that. As the work grows in size and complexity, the loss rate will increase.

Here is a great write up on the importance of annealing and the invisible stress. Glass Class 101: Annealing Take special note of the vase video with the polar scope and the Rupert Drop video on the bottom. It is even on a lampwork size scale. That drop did not crack on its own, but look how it shatters with the tiniest nip off the end. Scratches on beads can break their surface tension, and if not properly annealed, they will break at the next shock.

Unless you have a polar scope and only work in transparent glasses that can be read with a polar scope you can not tell if you truly have removed all of the stress in the glass.

The need to cool at a controlled rate is what annealing is. If the kiln cools faster from 950 to 800 than it does from 400 to 200, you do not have control over the chamber, or an even ramp down. The higher the temp, the faster the heat escapes from the chamber. You will see the slower ramp at the lower temps and think it ramped that slowly from the begining, but that is not how heat escapes. The greater the difference between the temp inside the kiln, and the outside air temp, the faster it exchanges the heat. As the two number get nearer to each other, the slower the heat escapes. This gives a false sense of security. It could be cooling at 400 degrees per hour on one end of the temperature spectrum and 100 degrees per hour at the other. Your ramp down will vary with summer vs. winter room temps too.

There are as many approaches to annealing as there are approaches to glass. However, there is only one scientifically proven stress relieving method that can be applied to glass to ensure FULL strength of any thickness. The goal is not to get a product out of the kiln unharmed, it is to make it as strong as possible for the future owners of the work.

The digital controller will make single degree temp changes at even intervals to control ramp and therefore the strength of the glass, leaving no room for doubt about the strength of the product you bring to market. In a world where liability is paramount, I'd rather not take the chance.

[Bretta]

That's why you are the expert and just what I needed to read! Thanks for helping a newbie out! Please forgive my naïveté.

I'll be emailing you later...thanks a bunch for your response.

[Lisi]

[quote=PittsGlass;4049481]We sure appreciate that Our job is to be available when you need us.



Guess what? We DO make a Regular Deep Guy Here he is(elements can be in the roof on the non top loading guy)-






I didn't know you make the deep size like this! If my husband gets this new job he is after, then I'll be looking into getting a new kiln and my old one can be my back-up.

[@miniuniworld]

Just curious, what is the advantage of upgrading to 240 volt?

[Signguy]

There are several. Essentially it let's you move twice as much power over the wires and into the kiln. So, you save money on the wire run because it can be a smaller gauge vs 120v, and the heating elements in the kiln can warm up twice as fast. As power demands get greater, 240v becomes essential as 120v gets to be impractical or requires multiple circuits.

[FosterFire]

Arrow Springs AF99. I work in the middle of 11 inch mandrels

[wolflo]

My kiln is fire brick lined......front, back, sides...and I NEVER RAMP DOWN.....after the last bead...depending of course on the size..and I try to do the large beads first.....I wait maybe a half hr. and turn it OFF....

Bretta, I am betting you that after you get your kiln...and have it set up while torching....you might not EVER batch anneal again....that's the beauty of the thing....you can make huge focals....and then immediately garage...and fear not...if made CORRECTLY....they will not crack....at least not to thermal problems. I am still considered an amature/intermediate but have been making glass beads now for approximately six years...and I NEVER batch anneal......not with my kiln up and running. You will LOVE it!!! Good luck. ( I must have read the same thing Suzan read....as the "experts" don't ramp down either, I think they said it depends upon what type of kiln you purchase..?)

Wolflo(Lois)

[Jenne]

I don't work MOM, but know my glass hive would work, though now I'm drooling over a bigger one. I chose Glass hive for their customer service as well as quality product.

I think batch annealing will be a thing of the past for you. Especially if you do more than simple spacer sized beads. No need to worry about loss due to thermal shock if you garage. Well, unless you stare at it too long before popping it in...goodness knows I've done that before

I always ramp down. I'd rather be safe and have my work be around (stress free) for many many years. Plus, just cause Van Gogh cut off his ear, doesn't mean it's a good idea

[PittsGlass]

Originally Posted by @miniuniworld

Just curious, what is the advantage of upgrading to 240 volt?

Simply put, a kiln costs half as much to run on 240v because it draws half the amperage. The chamber heats up faster and recovers faster when doors are opened. There is twice as much element in a 240v kiln. Elements are under half the load, so last much longer.

Not everyone has access to 240 outlets, and it is not as easy to take to shows or move to another work space unless they too have outlets.

Originally Posted by Jenne

I don't work MOM, but know my glass hive would work, though now I'm drooling over a bigger one. I chose Glass hive for their customer service as well as quality product.

I think batch annealing will be a thing of the past for you. Especially if you do more than simple spacer sized beads. No need to worry about loss due to thermal shock if you garage. Well, unless you stare at it too long before popping it in...goodness knows I've done that before

I always ramp down. I'd rather be safe and have my work be around (stress free) for many many years. Plus, just cause Van Gogh cut off his ear, doesn't mean it's a good idea

Thank you Jenne, I really love the way you put that last bit.

Some artists feel differently about this issue. The art was around long before the science that understands it was in the picture. There are old school and new school ideas. Some say flame annealing is possible, some don't.

I was lucky enough to spend 3+ years working for a teaching studio that brought in a guest artist every month. People like Loren Stump, Mickelson, Leah Fairbanks, Sally Prash, Bandu Scott Dunham, Cesare Toffolo ect. There are many experts in this industry, and several schools of thought among them that were in direct conflict with each others opinions. One thing I never heard, "Don't run an anneal cycle, just shut it off." I ran the kilns to their specifications every class.

Best thing I can tell any artist is to keep your mind open, take bits and pieces from instructors as you see fit, and do your own research. Here is a great place to start Contemporary Lampworking. This is the most comprehensive discussion on annealing, as well as studio set up, and covers just about every kind of glass.

[Bretta]

Thank you, everyone, for all the advice! I just plunked my change down on a Regular Deep Guy with 240v and a punti door!
Can't wait to get it!!!!