stupid question for today

sixbabygirls · #1 2010-04-20, 8:40am

well to start i am a self taught student beadmaker that is there is no one remotely close to learn from sooo trying to understand what is work cool ?
if a neutral flame is neutral and you add oxy to make it hot
and you turn down oxy to make it reduce
what exactly is meant by cool ?
or where is cool ?

Kalorlo · #2 2010-04-20, 9:02am

I read cool as meaning in a neutral flame, but far out. As in, just enough heat to do what you have to, but no more.

Elizabeth Beads · #3 2010-04-20, 9:10am

Not a stupid question and one that has been much debated. As I understand it, and my experience confirms it, an oxygenated flame is hotter than a reduction flame.

StephBonniwell · #4 2010-04-20, 9:20am

In a neutral flame, I consider hot to be working much closer to the torch head and cool to be working further away, more to the top of the flame. To me, when I work a bead "hot", the bead is glowing orange/red. When I am working it "cool", I do not see any glow.

Starfield · #5 2010-04-20, 9:20am

This is a much debated topic but cool to me is where I would encase a bead (so the bead is cool enough not to crack when it comes into contact with the hot glass)
In my torch that would be out away from the torch tip about 6" or so in a neutal flame.

If you want to disagree that's fine...like I said it is a much debated topic and that's what works for me.

Karen

Lorraine Chandler · #6 2010-04-20, 9:47am

Everyone has a different interpretation but the bottom line is you work in the flame to melt. You work out ( under or to one side) of the flame most other times and most people do their out of the flame work in the same area they melt because that is the "zone" for us. That way we just have to move the bead a little bit and it's right back in the sweet spot for us.

Working cooler usually means IN A FLAME so that means not working it in the normal "zone" melting spot. You would move the bead away from the torch head still in the flame but farther past your normal "working zone" so it is cooler. My wafting area is usually even further away than the cooler working area.

So starting at the torch head we have

zone 1 close to the head, red hot melting here.

zone 2 a little farther out and usually your comfort working zone ( not on HH)
Zone 3 even further out and this is the cool zone ( normal working area on a HH)

zone 4 very back of the flame. wafting zone

These are my 4 zones and not necessarily what others do. Stringers and decorations are worked out of the flame.

Hope this helps and there are no stupid questions. This is what we love to do here. Help people out and don't be afraid of the differences in opinions because ( that's also what we do here) and there will be one or more opinions here that will work perfectly for you.

Lorraine

RSimmons · #7 2010-04-20, 9:48am

Adding oxygen to your fuel gas of choice in a balanced ratio does make it burn hotter, but only to a point. An oxygen rich flame is actually a little cooler than a neutral or slightly reducing flame. The excess oxygen that doesn't combine with the fuel actually cools the flame.

Robert

lonerp · #8 2010-04-20, 10:01am

....and to add to the confusion, working hot dosen´t always mean working close to the torch. It can also mean working a long time in a cooler flame. If worked very hot near the flame, you heat the snot out of it or boil it = not good colours.

sixbabygirls · #9 2010-04-20, 10:19am

i new this would start something thanks for all your opinions !

Dale M. · #10 2010-04-20, 11:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSimmons

Adding oxygen to your fuel gas of choice in a balanced ratio does make it burn hotter, but only to a point. An oxygen rich flame is actually a little cooler than a neutral or slightly reducing flame. The excess oxygen that doesn't combine with the fuel actually cools the flame.

Robert

I got to go with this...

Plus where you are working in flame.... Further out cooler flame is....

Dale

sixbabygirls · #11 2010-04-20, 1:46pm

so if i work out about 6-8 inches in a cool blue tip flame that would be cool ?
(I am working on a mini cc with 2 oxy consthey are putting out 8 lpm which is what carlisle recommends )

Elizabeth Beads · #12 2010-04-20, 2:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSimmons

Adding oxygen to your fuel gas of choice in a balanced ratio does make it burn hotter, but only to a point. An oxygen rich flame is actually a little cooler than a neutral or slightly reducing flame. The excess oxygen that doesn't combine with the fuel actually cools the flame.

Robert

I don't disagree, but why is it harder to melt a rod of glass in a slightly reducing flame than a neutral or slightly oxidizing flame?

When you work a glass that tends to boil, why does turning down the oxygen reduce the boiling?

Foofaraw · #13 2010-04-20, 3:39pm

Melissa, I just wanted to give you encouragement. I'm completely self taught, so it is possible and at the time LE didn't exist. I remember the day that I tried to enroll in Corina's class and she emailed me that she didn't feel she could teach me anything! So it can be done!

kbinkster · #14 2010-04-20, 7:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixbabygirls

so if i work out about 6-8 inches in a cool blue tip flame that would be cool ?
(I am working on a mini cc with 2 oxy consthey are putting out 8 lpm which is what carlisle recommends )

I would work a little bit closer in. If you are running candles that are about 3/8" (what Carlisle recommends for a soft glass flame) try 4" give or take from the face of the torch to start and find your sweet spot from there. If you are running longer candles for boro, then move in even closer.

If you would like to see a close-up picture of what a neutral flame on a Mini CC looks like, go to my YouTube channel and check out my Mini CC video: http://www.youtube.com/user/PyronamixK

Now, keep in mind that some glasses can tolerate more or less fuel in the mix before showing the effects of reduction or oxidation. What I show is a balanced flame as far as combustion goes.

RSimmons · #15 2010-04-21, 5:13am

The pressures you are running also have an effect on the velocity of the flame and the penetration of the heat into the glass. Add this to the design of the torch jets, fuel type, fuel mixture, placement of glass in the flame and you have a complex problem that takes time in grade to learn to manage well.

Robert

sixbabygirls · #16 2010-04-21, 1:38pm

Wow ! thanks teachers' all of you are so awesome !
the u tube is great Kim actually it was your info that made me realize i needed another oxy con ! and each of you has taught me something here so thanks !