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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2009-11-27, 6:15pm
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Oh Honey Oh Honey is offline
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Default Compressed Oxygen System Part Deux

Well I decided to take the plunge a couple weeks ago and upgrade my compressed oxygen system from 20 gallon at 80 PSI to a 60 gallon tank at 135 PSI. Needless to say with the reserve on this tank calculating out to 2400 liters give or take this is major excess oxygen and it replenishes itself. Even my Delta Elite will have troubles taking this reserve down

The other 20 gallon system worked flawlessly but making a 2.5" boro marbles caused the pressure to dip to 30 PSI so I'd have to put the marble in the kiln and allow the system to recharge an hour or so into the project. Now I have about 2 hours of full flame on my delta elite before I need to stop. Since a lot of the back decorating and dots etc only need the inner flame I virtually can't run it out of oxygen with the 2 EX-15's I have connected to the compressor.

The 20 gallon worked extremely well with my phantom if I didn't rage endlessly on the flame and would last 1 to 1 1/2 hours all the time.

So my question to all here is: Is there a market to make and supply these in a 20 40 and 60 gallon size? I'm thinking $950 for the 20 gallon variety to $1950 for the 60 gallon monster compressor / tank. The cleaning protocols will be pretty restrictive to making many of them as this one took me several weeks to complete safely. You would need your own oxygen generator but then you're pretty much done with tanks.

I'll post a couple of pics so you can see both systems in the next post, but I do find the thought intriguing.
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On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

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Last edited by Oh Honey; 2009-11-27 at 6:36pm.
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  #2  
Old 2009-11-27, 6:24pm
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60 gallon in red 20 gallon in blue...
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On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #3  
Old 2009-11-27, 6:37pm
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Did you go with a larger compressor on the 60 gallon?

Malcolm
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  #4  
Old 2009-11-27, 6:41pm
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Yes a 3 times larger motor. Really the main restriction is the airflow in. I really should have 3 EX-15s on the system. I think at least 1 EX-15 on the 20 gallon, 2 on the 40 and 3 on the 60 as the step up in compressor power needs more airflow to keep from over working the motor.
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On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts

Last edited by Oh Honey; 2009-11-27 at 6:44pm.
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  #5  
Old 2009-11-28, 9:39am
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good deal!
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  #6  
Old 2009-11-28, 9:59am
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What you've done is extremely interesting. Bet there would be a market for this. I, for one, would be willing to wait patiently if it meant you being safe as you make them. If you decide to pursue this, it would be worth letting your customers know that your turn time is slow for that reason - might help folks from getting antsy.

Linda
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  #7  
Old 2009-11-28, 10:04pm
Lynn Burgess Lynn Burgess is offline
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YES, I would be very interested. I would love to be able to run my Mirage.
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  #8  
Old 2009-11-29, 9:02am
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Well it looks like there is a fair amount of interest so I'll have to at least try a few to test people's experiences to try to "idiot proof" the setup
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On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #9  
Old 2009-11-29, 4:27pm
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one reason why it is not a marketable idea IMHO, is that you would be liable for damages that might happen. yes i know you have done this already but you may be lucky 99 time out of 100, but that 100th one is a blast!!!
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  #10  
Old 2009-11-29, 5:58pm
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Actually with proper cleaning and proper usage the odds of winning the lottery are about the same as it blowing. The lack of pressure and heat is the real key here. As a Chemical Engineer the physics is fairly simple and about the same safety level as using oxy tanks. Oxygen and even fuel mixed in the tank is fairly difficult to combust without reaching about 400 degrees and or a lot more pressure than is in the tank. That being said even that very slight chance calls for a strict cleaning regime.
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On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #11  
Old 2009-11-29, 7:39pm
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I think what Mark may be referring to is somebody monkeying around with pressure switch settings or rewiring it to make it do something different, changing the way its plumbed, changing system to anything outside the "strict" design parameters... Then of course there is the very tiny chance something in system is defective and it does cause a "incident" where some body gets hurt or killed or there is sever property damage....

There is this thing called "liability insurance" we all probably should have it in some form just because....

Dale
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  #12  
Old 2009-11-29, 9:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
I think what Mark may be referring to is somebody monkeying around with pressure switch settings or rewiring it to make it do something different, changing the way its plumbed, changing system to anything outside the "strict" design parameters... Then of course there is the very tiny chance something in system is defective and it does cause a "incident" where some body gets hurt or killed or there is sever property damage....

There is this thing called "liability insurance" we all probably should have it in some form just because....

Dale
Understand that completely. Pouring oil in the compressor or plugging it in to 220 could have bad results. I think its very similar to playing with a 2500 degree torch or piping propane or knocking over a tank of oxy. One must be careful when dealing with most of the things we glass workers tend to take for granted.
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On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #13  
Old 2009-11-30, 5:25am
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if you sell a tutorial, or if you sell a "turn key" system, the liability is yours. i do not doubt that it can be done safely as you have already done it. but if something goes wrong, you may get a call from a lawyer. i am a physicist, you are an chemical engineer, who cares. you could still get into a legal battle, and someone could get hurt. its better to enjoy the system you have, and thank the lord that you did not blow up the 1st time you fired it up.
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Last edited by laserglass; 2009-11-30 at 7:08am.
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  #14  
Old 2009-12-01, 8:13am
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I'm glad that you agree with my assessment. The system is quite safe much like oxygen tanks, propane piping, torches and really most of the stuff we lampworkers play with. It really all does come down to using them properly and safely. Thats why the safety subforum exists, to make sure that safe systems stay that way.
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Dave
On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #15  
Old 2009-12-01, 6:35pm
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Trey Cornette Trey Cornette is offline
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Liability, The reason I didn't build these for profit.
That and the high shipping cost, high cost of new components, Insurance was a joke when I finally found someone who would even talk to me. Having to service defective units and stand behind a warranty. It never ended when I started thinking about all the things that could come up
Way to much hassle for the very small profit margin.
I will stick to being an artist.
That said.
Good luck
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  #16  
Old 2009-12-02, 6:00am
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another thing i forgot to mention. the safety relief valve was designed for compressed air. if the tank were to overfill the valve release pressure. normally it releases compressed air into air and so there is no net result. but in your case, the valve would release concentrated oxygen into air thus increasing the partial pressure of oxygen locally. depending upon where your studio is at, this could be bad. for example, if your studio was near a water heater, furnace, or gas cloths dryer, the flames would burn hotter and could cause trouble.
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  #17  
Old 2009-12-02, 12:59pm
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Yes you are correct if you vented the oxygen within 18" of your water heater there is the potential that the water heater might run a little hotter. Fortunately with the diffusion of oxygen and the 20% pure oxygen that is in the air that we breathe the effect would be brief and quite transient even if it was this close. Not any threat to people that had the system but the extra heat in the water heater if done repeatedly could cause the heating element to get hotter than normal.
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Dave
On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #18  
Old 2009-12-02, 1:06pm
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I agree with you. I do think the liability insurance issue is the worst issue. I think that The systems properly made are as safe as a torch is but convincing a insurance company of that is harder than making the systems. Having talked to a couple they are not enthusiastic or willing to be educated easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Cornette View Post
Liability, The reason I didn't build these for profit.
That and the high shipping cost, high cost of new components, Insurance was a joke when I finally found someone who would even talk to me. Having to service defective units and stand behind a warranty. It never ended when I started thinking about all the things that could come up
Way to much hassle for the very small profit margin.
I will stick to being an artist.
That said.
Good luck
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Dave
On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #19  
Old 2009-12-03, 11:50am
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Mind if I ask the brand and cost of the compressors you used?

BTW one of my summer jobs long ago was to open, clean, hydrotest and refill SCUBA and oxy cylinders. Keep in mind this was early '60's but we cleaned these cylinders with a diluted muratic acid bath followed with a baking soda bath and a through rince with water and then power dried with warm forced air. Took about a half hour per and came out bright metal clean, good enough for breathing air at 200 ft.
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  #20  
Old 2009-12-03, 12:01pm
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Tanks are about $400-500 and compressors are $800 for the beefy one and about $550 for the smaller ones. They plus all the labor is why you can't make these really cheaply. I used Gast compressor the tank doesn't really matter just not a used one.
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Dave
On a Delta Elite with compressed tank and generators

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

...Stephen F Roberts
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  #21  
Old 2009-12-04, 10:57am
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Thanks for the info.
Labor is no problem since I'm retired. Tooling is no problem as I have a complete machine shop in my garage... and little else) had lots of experience on compressors from Atlas-Copco's to huge Campbells and some centrificals. Had similar project on the back burner for some time but my usage makes tanks a better alternative.
PJ
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