Something isn't right....

jana · #1 2007-02-13, 8:30pm

I have had a Betta since August.

I am running it on (2) 5 LPM oxy cons and natural gas set at 2 ½ - 3 psi.

I noticed last night that I could not get enough of an oxidizing flame to strike my Silver Plum. I tried everything.

I am not throwing any candles, and I keep my ports cleaned.

I recleaned the holes with the wire after it cooled, and there wasn’t any obvious blockage (resistance when pushing through the hole)…..lit it back up, tapped on the bottom, set a high flame to burn out any particles cleaning left, and I still could not get an oxidizing flame.

I checked the hose connection, no leaks. I checked the knobs, nothing leaking out around them either.

I have my very fist torch, a National 8M, so I hooked it back up to the same 2 oxys and propane tank, I got a nice oxidizing flame just fine.

Can anyone help me figure out what might be wrong with my torch? I despise that noisy National and cannot fathom having to go back to it!

kbinkster · #2 2007-02-13, 10:38pm

Was this the first time you tried to run an oxidizing flame on your Betta?

jana · #3 2007-02-14, 4:33am

Not at all....I use it all the time for Silver Plum and have been doing some glass testing, so running everything through a oxidizing and reducing flame just for documentation.

tasminann · #4 2007-02-14, 6:43am

I'm sure someone will come by who knows more, but I was just thinking -- if you aren't getting enough oxygen, then might not your O2 ports need to be cleaned? Sounds like what you did was clean your fuel ports. I would guess that maybe the manufacturer may need to clean them?

Glad that you at least have a back-up torch!

kbinkster · #5 2007-02-14, 5:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tasminann

I'm sure someone will come by who knows more, but I was just thinking -- if you aren't getting enough oxygen, then might not your O2 ports need to be cleaned? Sounds like what you did was clean your fuel ports. I would guess that maybe the manufacturer may need to clean them?

Glad that you at least have a back-up torch!

That's what I would think, too - there may be something blocking your oxygen. You might be able to clean it yourself. Do you have a torch cleaning kit?

jana · #6 2007-02-14, 6:15pm

I have used the files and cleaned the holes in the opening of the torch face, but it did not help.

Do you mean remove my green oxygen hose from the back of the torch and clean that port with something?

kbinkster · #7 2007-02-14, 6:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by janakisses

I have used the files and cleaned the holes in the opening of the torch face, but it did not help.

Do you mean remove my green oxygen hose from the back of the torch and clean that port with something?

No, don't remove the hose. On the face of your torch, there are round tubes and then there are spaces around/between the tubes and little slots behind the five outer tubes. The spaces around/between the tubes and little slots behind the five outer tubes are where the oxygen comes out. The round tubes, like tasminann said, are where the fuel comes out. Were you able to clean those spaces and slots behind the tubes (where the oxygen comes out)?

Are any candles more yellow than the others? That could point you in the direction of a possible blockage.

jana · #8 2007-02-15, 12:01pm

I cleaned the round holes with one size wire and the space between them with a little smaller wire and there wasn't any blockage.

The candles are no different....I am at a loss and still waiting for Bethlehem to reply back to my emails.

kbinkster · #9 2007-02-15, 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by janakisses

I cleaned the round holes with one size wire and the space between them with a little smaller wire and there wasn't any blockage.

The candles are no different....I am at a loss and still waiting for Bethlehem to reply back to my emails.

How far down did you poke the slots in the back?

jana · #10 2007-02-15, 4:29pm

I am using this tool, and inserting the entire length of the wire, pulling it in and out several times. I have not met any resistance in either the fuel or oxygen ports:

http://www.dichroicimagery.com/produ...oducts_id=2793

kbinkster · #11 2007-02-15, 5:22pm

OK, I just wanted to make sure that you were cleaning the tiny slots behind the tubes - shown here colored in red (hard to see):

These slots are so small, that it is rare for any wire to go into them with no resistance. Those must be some really thin wires in that cleaning kit (the page you linked to did not specify what sized wires they were).

At any rate, if you have cleaned the slots behind the fuel tubes (the ones that lay up against the wall of the torch pictured in the diagram above), as well as the spaces between the fuel tubes, and still have not resolved the problem, then the next logical step would be to look at your concentrators - because you can have a purity problem (which could result in an inability to achieve an oxidizing flame) and not have a change of candle appearance. But, you say that you were able to get an oxidizing flame with them using your 8M? This is puzzling.

Bethlehems are known to be on the reducing side, but you said that you were able to run the oxidizing flame on your Betta before. So, hmmm. Maybe you should check your oxygen line and make sure there is not a blockage somewhere. I really don't think it's the torch.

ETA: And if you had not said that you tried them on the 8M and it could get an oxidizing flame, I would have really leaned towards your concentrators.

jana · #12 2007-02-15, 7:43pm

I just went down to look at the wires to see if there were sizes on them and discovered something.....the thinest wire was about 3/4" shorter than the others....hmm....strange.....got to looking at it and it was broke....I bet my missing bit of wire is in one of those little red holes!

It doesn't look like it comes apart, so I'm pretty well screwed aren't I?

kbinkster · #13 2007-02-15, 8:17pm

Are you sure the wire is stuck in the torch? You should be able to see it. I'm hoping that it broke off outside of the torch.

If the wire is stuck in there, when you run your torch, you will see a long finger associated with one of the candles. This will tell you where it is. If there is no funny candle stuff going on that didn't go on before, then the wire is probably not stuck in there.

Don't panic. This may be something fixable. Of course, it would have to be sent back to the manufacturer for the fix, but it should be pretty simple if they can remove the head and get the wire out. DO NOT attempt this yourself. Now, if the head cannot be removed, then they could possibly go about it another way.

jana · #14 2007-02-15, 8:22pm

I have tried all that I can on my side, so I guess I am going to wait to hear from them and try calling them if I don't get something from them by tomorrow.

Thank you so much for your guidance and answers!

bhhco · #15 2007-02-15, 8:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by janakisses

I just went down to look at the wires to see if there were sizes on them and discovered something.....the thinest wire was about 3/4" shorter than the others....hmm....strange.....got to looking at it and it was broke....I bet my missing bit of wire is in one of those little red holes!

It doesn't look like it comes apart, so I'm pretty well screwed aren't I?

Back up to what Kimberly said. You said you tried it with a 8M on propane and all was well. You did not mention if the oxygen supply hose used was the same, or not. If not, it could be a blocked oxygen hose on the Betta (as Kimberly said). Or something blocking the torch valve (internally).

Try this. With the torch fuel valve closed, and with the oxycons running, open the torch oxygen valve all the way and then close it -- and simultaneously watch the oxycons flow rates... it should go max (5?) with valve full open, and then minimum (0) with valve full closed, if the hose and valve are not blocked. If they won't go max, then swap out the oxy hose and try again. If they still won't go max, then it's in the torch.

If it does go max, then either:
1. There is not enough oxy purity (oxycon problem); or
2. There is something in the torch oxygen tubes; or
3. The natural gas is not 'natural'... it's that time of year (winter) when natural gas gets 'balanced' (a nice word for mixing water and other stuff into the gas to thin it out and make it go further under high demand) and it works fine for cooking and heating... but it's not the same chemistry so it can do funky things flamework-wise.

Me

kbinkster · #16 2007-02-15, 10:43pm

I think that if the natural gas was balanced with something and thinned out, then there would be less fuel in the mix - and that would make it easier to get an oxidizing flame rather than harder.

If something were stuck in the oxygen valve, or the port before the valve, I would think that you would have to run shorter candles than normal to clean up any reduction. NG is sneaky, though, as it is harder to tell when you are in a neutral flame than with propane.

Jana, do you have access to tanked oxygen? If you don't, maybe one of your friends does. Try running your torch on tanked oxygen and see if you can get an oxidizing flame. If you can, then you will know that it is not the torch.

kbinkster · #17 2007-02-15, 10:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by janakisses

I have tried all that I can on my side, so I guess I am going to wait to hear from them and try calling them if I don't get something from them by tomorrow.

Thank you so much for your guidance and answers!

You're welcome. I just really wish we could figure out what exactly is causing the problem!

Kalera · #18 2007-02-16, 12:42am

You're using 2 oxycons? Most often when I have a deficiency with my 2 oxycons it's because there's a leak where they "T". Try turning on your torch and fiddling with your oxy hoses and the T and see if the flame gets any tighter.

jana · #19 2007-02-20, 7:38pm

Thanks for all your replies. I done all I could and did not work, so she is on her way to Bethlehem right now....I guess it is sounding like a gasket?

smutboy420 · #20 2007-02-23, 11:31pm

Quote:

could not get enough of an oxidizing flame to strike my Silver Plum. I tried everything.

have you BEEN able to get an oxidizing flame running it on the (2) 5 LPM oxy cons and natural gas set at 2 ½ - 3 psi. before and did this just start happing? or is the o2 set up a new thing?

Its sounds like a drop in purity for some reasone. if you have had em be able to give you an oxidizing flame.
Does the flame happen to make a louder sound then mornal by any chance. or is it more hissy sounding?

Do you have any way to hook up to tanked o2 to see if you can get it to work right on tanked o2?

castaway · #21 2007-02-24, 12:27am

I don't know how you are trying to get an oxydizing flame but the best way to do this is to back the gas off a bit , don't touch the oxy just leave it where it is and cut the gas down.
B

jana · #22 2007-02-24, 9:12pm

I am not sure what I was thinking when I was posting....I am on propane, not natural gas....duh!

I am using the same equipment when I hook up the National as I was the Betta....I have had no problems getting a neutral flame before....I turn down the propane and crank the oxy until it is hissy.....I couldn't even get it to hiss.

It is sitting at Bethlehem right now and hopefully they will get back with me sometime this week with what they found.

jana · #23 2007-02-26, 5:17pm

I got a call from Jerry today and they got my torch on Friday and going to have it fixed and back out to me in a couple days....the valve did need replaced and they are going to go ahead and replace the propane valve and the torch head (?) while they have it....all no charge, but I have to pay them 1 hour labor to remove the broken wire

!

I am extremely happy with the communication I have had with them and how quickly they are able to get the work done....I feel much better about them continuing to support the torches even though they are no longer selling them!