What is Devardi glass???

[Pat]

Harriet that would be just too much common sense.....

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Wiley

I definitely agree!

One of the reasons I switched to boro is much of it is American made. I was buying BE for the same reason. problem is that I like the WYSIWYG colors in soft glass and want lots of them. I think there is a trade off, either the glass is cheap and is going to be made in a developing country under conditions I would hate, or its gonna be made here at prices I can't afford to buy heavily at. It wasn't such a pressing issue a couple of years ago, but these days I simply can't spend $40+ a pound for glass to play with. Maybe I'd feel differently if the cost of those things I have to pay hadn't tripled...


added: and for anyone who wants to know, watch the video of those bead makers, looks like that factory is really really high up at the top of my list of conditions I would hate. (bet they are happy to have work however.)

[J&M]

Originally Posted by Wiley

I agreed with you earlier.....you replied by and I am starting up again? I also asked you for a clarification in a post where YOU said you "didn't like people" ... you chose to ignore.

Did you even bother to read and UNDERSTAND my apology? Apparently not.

"I want to apologize to "all you people" that I offended. I do not post on LE to be rude, but I just can't stand back and see, what seems to me to be kind and caring people, get raked through the coals for nothing they have done."

Ya, like I said parts of this thread have become a joke and I have no problem saying who has caused it....I won't bother around with the "YOU PEOPLE" ... that is insulting to the entire community.

The only times I post any disparaging remarks about "some" of the folks here on LE are when they constantly question the ethics of others without any proof. I do not, I repeat, I do not believe ALL of LE and everyone in it is bad like you seem to think. Only when personal attacks are made on people without proof of wrongdoing am I negative... and then it is directed at those that are doing the attacking without proof or reason. NOT all of LE, like has been stated by you."

Can you understand that, or do I need to draw a picture for you?

[Kybeadmaker]

Pat

[miahawk]

I don't find $40 a pound a very high price considering how many rods are in a pound. if I was a hobbyist torching a few hours a week, I'd probably only go through a few pounds in a year. I spend way more than that on my coffee.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by J&M

[color="Red"]
Can you understand that, or do I need to draw a picture for you?

How would I know for certain that you drew the picture yourself?

ah what the hell, use lots of orange, I like orange. As to if I need a picture, I'll know that better after I see it.

[J&M]

Good one Rob! I like orange too.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by miahawk

I don't find $40 a pound a very high price considering how many rods are in a pound. if I was a hobbyist torching a few hours a week, I'd probably only go through a few pounds in a year. I spend way more than that on my coffee.

depends on what you make, how you do it and how much of it you do.

I don't make beads. I do sculptural forms. I can burn through several pounds of glass a day without much problem. If I were making small beads I could probably get by with 20 pounds a year if I were careful. Thats still a lot more than I pay for my coffee.

[DesertDreamer]

ETA: (At the top so it doesn't get lost) Those color cards....they don't match. Look at some of the colors and the numbers. 71 in the Devardi card is the translucent white I'm having fits over. It's blue on the other card.

Originally Posted by Wiley

And has been stated by others in this thread ... for example Jack, Bob and Jbeads ... nobody cares. Nobody is interested in your knowledge .... they just want the cheap glass no matter what.

Oh good grief! There's that "you people" bullshit again. I care. I care about people here, I care about people overseas trying desperately to eke out a living in horrid conditions, I care about small businesses trying to make a go of it even while others are attempting to do them harm without knowing all the facts. I also care about the art that I create, and finding still more colors to add to my palette. (Yes, I'm a color ho.)

Some of the attitudes in this thread absolutely appall me. Usually I just try to stick to the real topic and ignore the pissing and whinging that goes on. Right now I feel like shit and I'm pissy too. I'll probably regret this later, but at least I have the energy to type.

Call me a Pollyanna if you want, but I'm excited for this glass and the people behind Devardi. I value the chance to participate in the whole process of introducing new glass. Gods know it's not the first time. I get a thrill when Mike Frantz asks what he should look for in Italy. I get a thrill getting emails from some of the silvered glass folks when I make a suggestion. I got a thrill when Kathy asked me to test some of the CIM colors. Now it's a thrill to participate in the genuinely helpful posts here, to maybe, just maybe help a new palette to evolve and a new business to grow. And no matter what some folks believe, I do absolutely believe that participating in the business is far more helpful than shunning it ever could be.

There's asking questions to learn, and there's asking questions simply to gain another opportunity to be obnoxious. I think there's been far too much of the latter. Give these folks time to find out for themselves. If it's not fast enough for you, at least try, just a little, to be considerate in the meantime. This incessant digging, and sniping, and snottiness is unworthy of those who do it. I'd like to think that they're decent people deep down, just like I'd like to think the same of Daniel and Natasha. Somewhere along the line, though, putting "our best foot forward" has been lost. Again.

I, personally, don't know what the factory conditions are like. I could, possibly, make an educated guess, but I could also be wrong. I don't think ANYONE on this thread knows for sure what's going on, and it seems to me that erring on the side of good manners, at the very least, would be a decent idea. Enough of the generalizations, enough of condemning an entire fucking country (or two, considering some comments about CIM), until and unless someone has some actual proof.

Think, just for a moment, what working conditions were like in this country 100 years ago. (If you don't know, look it up and learn a thing or two.) Now think about what conditions were like in India just a few decades ago. Yes, they have plenty of room to grow and improve. So did we! We cannot, sensibly and reasonably, compare our standards today to theirs, it's apples to oranges. Ask questions, apply pressure, most certainly. But turning away from countries that need help and encouragement gives them absolutely nothing.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Some of the attitudes in this thread absolutely appall me. Usually I just try to stick to the real topic and ignore the pissing and whinging that goes on. Right now I feel like shit and I'm pissy too. I'll probably regret this later, but at least I have the energy to type.


I, personally, don't know what the factory conditions are like. I could, possibly, make an educated guess, but I could also be wrong. I don't think ANYONE on this thread knows for sure what's going on, and it seems to me that erring on the side of good manners, at the very least, would be a decent idea. Enough of the generalizations, enough of condemning an entire fucking country (or two, considering some comments about CIM), until and unless someone has some actual proof.

I certainly hope my comment about a trade off between conditions I would hate, and glass I can't afford here is not the spark that set you off Karen. If it was I am sorry.

I was not claiming to know what the conditions were, I was referring to the video of the lamp workers from the Indian company (since they so nicely provide a video)

I do care about conditions, I however do not see where workers are helped by my refusing to buy a product. No sales means no factory which means much suffering for the workers who no longer have a job. Much better to stress that the conditions are important to me and see nothing wrong in pointing out when I see a video of conditions that they are ones I would hate to work in.

[Drafly]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

ETA: (At the top so it doesn't get lost) Those color cards....they don't match. Look at some of the colors and the numbers. 71 in the Devardi card is the translucent white I'm having fits over. It's blue on the other card.



Oh good grief! There's that "you people" bullshit again. I care. I care about people here, I care about people overseas trying desperately to eke out a living in horrid conditions, I care about small businesses trying to make a go of it even while others are attempting to do them harm without knowing all the facts. I also care about the art that I create, and finding still more colors to add to my palette. (Yes, I'm a color ho.)

Some of the attitudes in this thread absolutely appall me. Usually I just try to stick to the real topic and ignore the pissing and whinging that goes on. Right now I feel like shit and I'm pissy too. I'll probably regret this later, but at least I have the energy to type.

Call me a Pollyanna if you want, but I'm excited for this glass and the people behind Devardi. I value the chance to participate in the whole process of introducing new glass. Gods know it's not the first time. I get a thrill when Mike Frantz asks what he should look for in Italy. I get a thrill getting emails from some of the silvered glass folks when I make a suggestion. I got a thrill when Kathy asked me to test some of the CIM colors. Now it's a thrill to participate in the genuinely helpful posts here, to maybe, just maybe help a new palette to evolve and a new business to grow. And no matter what some folks believe, I do absolutely believe that participating in the business is far more helpful than shunning it ever could be.

There's asking questions to learn, and there's asking questions simply to gain another opportunity to be obnoxious. I think there's been far too much of the latter. Give these folks time to find out for themselves. If it's not fast enough for you, at least try, just a little, to be considerate in the meantime. This incessant digging, and sniping, and snottiness is unworthy of those who do it. I'd like to think that they're decent people deep down, just like I'd like to think the same of Daniel and Natasha. Somewhere along the line, though, putting "our best foot forward" has been lost. Again.

I, personally, don't know what the factory conditions are like. I could, possibly, make an educated guess, but I could also be wrong. I don't think ANYONE on this thread knows for sure what's going on, and it seems to me that erring on the side of good manners, at the very least, would be a decent idea. Enough of the generalizations, enough of condemning an entire fucking country (or two, considering some comments about CIM), until and unless someone has some actual proof.

Think, just for a moment, what working conditions were like in this country 100 years ago. (If you don't know, look it up and learn a thing or two.) Now think about what conditions were like in India just a few decades ago. Yes, they have plenty of room to grow and improve. So did we! We cannot, sensibly and reasonably, compare our standards today to theirs, it's apples to oranges. Ask questions, apply pressure, most certainly. But turning away from countries that need help and encouragement gives them absolutely nothing.

A "Voice of Reason" among us! Thanks, Jim

[DesertDreamer]

Originally Posted by Rob

I do care about conditions, I however do not see where workers are helped by my refusing to buy a product. No sales means no factory which means much suffering for the workers who no longer have a job. Much better to stress that the conditions are important to me and see nothing wrong in pointing out when I see a video of conditions that they are ones I would hate to work in.

I agree, Rob. Shunning accomplishes nothing good, nothing at all. We have an opportunity here, albeit a very small one, to encourage something positive.

[maren]

Made it to the end of the thread ...

Question, as I think I did find both answers: can this glass be worked on a HotHead or not?

And another one: how many pounds of glass can you fit into a USPS priority mail flat rate box?

[DesertDreamer]

Originally Posted by maren

Made it to the end of the thread ...

Question, as I think I did find both answers: can this glass be worked on a HotHead or not?

And another one: how many pounds of glass can you fit into a USPS priority mail flat rate box?

I suspect that it's going to be a bit slow on a HH, but certainly not impossible. Then again I'm stubborn and made many boro beads on a Minor.

I think the flat rate limit is 4 lbs, off the top of my head.

ETA: I'm wrong! Straight from the USPS website:
Restrictions
Contents must reasonably fit within the Priority Mail packaging, and weigh less than 70 pounds.

[NMLinda]

Daniel

I have no idea if you're reading this thread at all at this point, but I want to appologize for something I presumed in my only other post here. Unfortunately, the deleted posts carried critical info of which I wasn't aware until I read some of the recent posts, namely that you/Natasha had answered the questions about the factory conditions to the best of your current knowledge.

Although I can certainly understand your frustration for the behind-the-scenes barage you mentioned in (I think) your second post and your desire to stand behind Natasha, and although I think you could have handled it differently and avoided some of this whole barage, I would still encourage you to consider Tela's family story. If you're both adroit with the lampworking community and sincere about supporting the upward potential of Devardi as a supplier - even if they enjoy superior working conditions relative to most Indian businesses - and engage this community in helping in their success, I think you can develop a thriving business model for yourself - and for Devardi. My sense of this thread is that folks would love cheap glass without the guilt. That may quite possibly be within your ability to provide - which would make you and Natasha heroes.

My best wishes to you and Natasha in your endevours, and again, my appologies for taking an inappropriate slant in my first post that was based on a lack of pertinent information.

Regards,
Linda

[Rob]

Originally Posted by maren

Made it to the end of the thread ...

Question, as I think I did find both answers: can this glass be worked on a HotHead or not?

And another one: how many pounds of glass can you fit into a USPS priority mail flat rate box?

should be able to work it on a hot head just fine. It is a low temp glass.

depends on the size of glass and the size of the flat rate box. You're likely to be better off for larger weights to go with something like ups, rather than priority. But you should be able to get 2-3 pounds into a flat rate box. I think my last rush order came in one and it was just 3 pounds of boro color, but the rods had to be cut down. (boro rods are longer than the 12 inches 104 workers are used to.) Why not save a box and pack it up? Then you'll have a definitive answer.

[GlassGalore]

Karen!!!

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

I, personally, don't know what the factory conditions are like. I could, possibly, make an educated guess, but I could also be wrong. I don't think ANYONE on this thread knows for sure what's going on, and it seems to me that erring on the side of good manners, at the very least, would be a decent idea. Enough of the generalizations, enough of condemning an entire fucking country (or two, considering some comments about CIM), until and unless someone has some actual proof.

[ditfd]

[Okay, this is a tome.]

This has been an informative thread for me. I started reading it innocently, as I believe the intent of the thread was in the beginning, of folks just wondering about this glass, but then of course, it has illustrated a huge point about capitalism, eh? And how each person has to decide for themselves not only about this glass but about everything they have in their homes/lives.

Kalera's point about the glass being almost a no-brainer as to whether or not its manufacture is ethical is well-taken. But it seems like the jury for the Devardi glass will have to remain out for a while. I think it's pointless to argue back and forth about assumptions in this regard -- until Natasha visits the factory, the questions of child labor and poor working conditions cannot be answered. I don't know the background of the CIM factory discussions, but who amongst us has been to the factory to verify what we were told about it? Seems no different with Devardi -- at some point, won't we have to take David's and Natasha's word? Or not? Because until someone can go visit, how will we know for sure? But this is the question regarding everything that we buy and consume, isn't it? Why is it okay to put one thing under the microscope, but not everything else? This in my view has to end up in the realm of personal judgement and responsibility. We cannot legislate it or foist our views about this on each other.

Regarding the quality issues that have been raised: I have been using Italian glass for about 14 or 15 years. I've had some pretty darn crappy batches that were NEVER sold as seconds, but according to this thread, certainly qualified as such. I cannot even say that there is a single color that is consistent in any way, shape or form. From the drawn bubbles, to HUGE shifts in shade, to coefficient incompatibilities, to foaming, to inclusions, to the most violent shockiness. And maybe because I'm more experienced than when I started, but the longer I work with the Italian stuff, the worse it seems to me. Writing this "out loud" makes me wonder why I stick with it. But I'm a colorist, and they have the best palette, and the glass can be worked and worked and worked without degradation -- and I'm used to it. I've tried enough "compatible" Czech and German to know the same exact problems happen there too.

I must say, that once upon a time I toured the BE factory -- they are meticulous with quality control and it was this fact alone that ALMOST made me make the change-over. I contemplate changing over still... But I'm a 104 girl, and don't see that changing anytime soon. I digress...

So where do we all draw the line? I think that's more what the arguments or "debates" that have come up as a result of the original question that started this thread are about. Is it more better to buy Italian or American glass than it is to buy Pakistani tools? And who amongst us can be sure about the "auxiliary" beads we use in our work -- are kids making the articulated silver stuff? I mean the fluxes and soldering fumes alone can be quite deadly -- are these folks working in safe conditions with proper ventilation? Who's really doing the hands on labor of all the stone beads out there? Who's drilling and dying the pearls, and under what conditions? Harbor Freight has been mentioned as has FMG, who even as I type this has pulled a "fast one" on a well-respected beadmaker who has had to hire a lawyer to get that worked out. So add to the ethical manufacture debates, the issues of copyright infringement, by these factories and import companies!

Then multiply these types of questions by every type of bead, stringing material, crimp, tool you buy. Multiply this again by every pair of glasses, blue jeans, refrigerator, pair of shoes, -- anything and everything you buy. Are the frames of our glass working glasses made in a factory in China, or here in the US? What are the working conditions under which they're manufactured. Did any of us check? Or did you need a pair of glasses, and just buy them?

Just because it's relatively easy to find out about the circumstances of glass manufacture doesn't make it more "right" or "wrong" than buying a pair of shoes, or supporting a company who outsources their tech support does it? At some point each of us individually decides their tolerance factor. Each of us decides where to draw the line, and then we (I) close my eyes to the rest because I need stuff, and there are not enough hours in the day, nor money in the bank to make sure that every last thing I buy has an ethical background of manufacture.

Like it or not, we are in a global market place. Gone are the days -- forever I believe -- of being able to exclusively "buy American" or "buy Italian." China and India are here to stay, and if we want to survive in this, we'd better stop whining and figure out how we're going to compete and stay afloat. We have bigger problems than whether or not something is ethically manufactured. I mean, I'm more concerned that almost nothing is made here anymore. What if some global circumstance makes it impossible to get stuff that we need from India or China. Or when stuff is made here, it's too expensive to afford -- perhaps we haven't had a global "reality check" regarding our costs. (A couple of books that might be of interest that address or at least illuminate some of these very issues brought up in this thread: The World is Flat (I suggest the abridged version, which I normally would never do, but! the unabridged version is a snore) and A Year Without Made in China)).

So for me, this post has been very helpful in honing my own viewpoints and behavior: I think I may try this glass out sometime, and quality-wise, it doesn't sound any worse than what I've been using. David's rant didn't bug me in the least -- at the risk of being flamed myself, some of you had it coming, and I think you know it. I really never once felt like this thread was a set up for a little free publicity to get people to buy, but then, I tend to give folks enough rope to hang themselves -- either they do or they don't, I don't have to try to control that.

Respectfully,
Patti

[J&M]

Originally Posted by NMLinda

Daniel

I have no idea if you're reading this thread at all at this point, but I want to appologize for something I presumed in my only other post here. Unfortunately, the deleted posts carried critical info of which I wasn't aware until I read some of the recent posts, namely that you/Natasha had answered the questions about the factory conditions to the best of your current knowledge.

Although I can certainly understand your frustration for the behind-the-scenes barage you mentioned in (I think) your second post and your desire to stand behind Natasha, and although I think you could have handled it differently and avoided some of this whole barage, I would still encourage you to consider Tela's family story. If you're both adroit with the lampworking community and sincere about supporting the upward potential of Devardi as a supplier - even if they enjoy superior working conditions relative to most Indian businesses - and engage this community in helping in their success, I think you can develop a thriving business model for yourself - and for Devardi. My sense of this thread is that folks would love cheap glass without the guilt. That may quite possibly be within your ability to provide - which would make you and Natasha heroes.

My best wishes to you and Natasha in your endevours, and again, my appologies for taking an inappropriate slant in my first post that was based on a lack of pertinent information.

Regards,
Linda

I would like to second Linda's quote if I may. I apologize to anyone that I might have offended. All my best to you guys and ALL of the LE lampworking community.

Thanks, Jack

[Rob]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

I agree, Rob. Shunning accomplishes nothing good, nothing at all. We have an opportunity here, albeit a very small one, to encourage something positive.

I agree. I still don't see where jumping all salty will help however. Until we are provided the information on what a personal visit shows, everything is a guess at best. I'm personally content to wait for the info.

but then I have always liked accurate info.

[J&M]

Originally Posted by Rob

I agree. I still don't see where jumping all salty will help however. Until we are provided the information on what a personal visit shows, everything is a guess at best. I'm personally content to wait for the info.

but then I have always liked accurate info.

That's part of what I have been trying to say... I guess I just didn't say it correctly, or something.

Jack

[glass_beads]

Originally Posted by DesertDreamer

Some of the attitudes in this thread absolutely appall me. Usually I just try to stick to the real topic and ignore the pissing and whinging that goes on. (snip)

Call me a Pollyanna if you want, but I'm excited for this glass and the people behind Devardi. I value the chance to participate in the whole process of introducing new glass. Gods know it's not the first time. I get a thrill when Mike Frantz asks what he should look for in Italy. I get a thrill getting emails from some of the silvered glass folks when I make a suggestion. I got a thrill when Kathy asked me to test some of the CIM colors. Now it's a thrill to participate in the genuinely helpful posts here, to maybe, just maybe help a new palette to evolve and a new business to grow. And no matter what some folks believe, I do absolutely believe that participating in the business is far more helpful than shunning it ever could be.

There's asking questions to learn, and there's asking questions simply to gain another opportunity to be obnoxious. (snip)

(snip) I don't think ANYONE on this thread knows for sure what's going on, and it seems to me that erring on the side of good manners, at the very least, would be a decent idea. (snip)

Think, just for a moment, what working conditions were like in this country 100 years ago. (If you don't know, look it up and learn a thing or two.) Now think about what conditions were like in India just a few decades ago. Yes, they have plenty of room to grow and improve. So did we! We cannot, sensibly and reasonably, compare our standards today to theirs, it's apples to oranges. Ask questions, apply pressure, most certainly. But turning away from countries that need help and encouragement gives them absolutely nothing.

Bravo Karen, Bravo. I haven't read beyond this particular page, having only come here after reading the other post. I tend not to post in these types of threads and try to just lurk in them -- perhaps I too am the Polyanna type...I like to only get involved in threads where people can respect differing opinions and choose to be polite to one another despite those opinions. With that said, I may randomly choose another couple of pages to read, then I will go enjoy the gallery where all the shiny happy beady things are.

PS, sorry for all the (snipping) I did to your original post. I just wanted to highlight those things I'd have liked to have said myself

[JBeads]

Oh Please are you people for REAL!!!!

How is this for disrespect.

At the other forum, us that do not agree with some people here are being called, JERKS,

suffering from MAD COW DISEASE, WE are being disrespectful and handing out bullshit

and that I have not RESPECT for PAM!!!!!

Sorry PAM but I did not disrespect you I stated an opinion that this subject of factories has been asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and asked and asked ......

WHATEVER

As for the gun shot wound comparison, Robin YES I am comparing the two, sorry you have a problem with that. But is is like POKING at a wound.

J
Out

[pam]

JBeads, I never actually thought about it being disrespectful. You have your opinion and I have mine. And personally, I don't think you are a jerk or suffer from mad cow disease, lol.

[Kalera]

FYI, a Google search on Daniel's full name turns up the bill of lading with the name of the glass factory right on the first page. Unfortunately, pictures of the facility on their own website not only show appalling working conditions and barefoot workers with no eye protection, in front of furnaces, but some of those workers certainly appear to be very young. It's hard to say how young.

I am not willing to post the links, but it is not difficult to find the information.

[JBeads]

Originally Posted by Wiley
And has been stated by others in this thread ... for example Jack, Bob and Jbeads ... nobody cares. Nobody is interested in your knowledge .... they just want the cheap glass no matter what.



Oh and when the HELL did I say that I did not CARE about Pams knowledge on this suject.... WHEN? Point that out to me please as I cannot for the life of me find that remark that I made.

[J&M]

Originally Posted by JBeads

Originally Posted by Wiley
And has been stated by others in this thread ... for example Jack, Bob and Jbeads ... nobody cares. Nobody is interested in your knowledge .... they just want the cheap glass no matter what.



Oh and when the HELL did I say that I did not CARE about Pams knowledge on this suject.... WHEN? Point that out to me please as I cannot for the life of me find that remark that I made.

As a matter of fact, when did I say I didn't care for Pam's knowledge on this subject? I NEVER mentioned any names. All I said was you people... no names at all. And it wasn't about the knowledge anyway. It was ALWAYS about the constant questioning and questioning of Natasha. That's all.

Jack

[ditfd]

So, um-m, any chance JBeads and Wiley could use the PM feature? Please? And J&M? Please?

Respectfully,
Patti

[J&M]

Originally Posted by ditfd

So, um-m, any chance JBeads and Wiley could use the PM feature? Please? And J&M? Please?

Respectfully,
Patti

I'll be waiting.

[squid]

Originally Posted by Kalera

FYI, a Google search on Daniel's full name turns up the bill of lading with the name of the glass factory right on the first page. Unfortunately, pictures of the facility on their own website not only show appalling working conditions and barefoot workers with no eye protection, in front of furnaces, but some of those workers certainly appear to be very young. It's hard to say how young.

I am not willing to post the links, but it is not difficult to find the information.

That is very interesting. Very.